It’s hard for me to think of a truly overrated brand in electronics. There are some which I just don’t like the sound of, but that doesn’t mean they produce a poor quality product.
One exception might be my experience with a Rega headphone amplifier. Very expensive, mostly air, poor power supply which contributed to significant noise/hum. The ProJect unit that was 1/3 the cost had a much better power supply and almost identical amplifier section. I don’t know if their other product follow the same general lack of value.
Eversolo , way over rated. They are releasing a $3700 streamer , good luck to anyone that buys it. They can't even correct FW on their first player. Way over hyped .
I will add the two companies that I was underwhelmed by their gear.
BAT. I have VK 3i and a vK-33. Both were exceedingly bright and sounded like mid fi.
AYRE. great company and they get quite a bit of positive buzz but i had 2 different C-5 players and one of their amps and felt they were okay but did not understand all the buzz they got!
I just spoke to Carl yesterday there at Apex Audio in Denver, Colorado, Carl is the owner of the shop and also the winner of best sound at show, the Rocky Mountain audio festival for the past 5 year's, I asked him if he carried high fidelity cable's, his answer was he gets more trade in's of high fidelity cable's towards the brand's he carries than any other cable, I asked Carl what cable's he used to win such a prestigious audio show? , his answer was Taralab's complete loom of the Evolution zero cable's, so my vote would be high fidelity cable's.
"I have no problem with people making money, but crazy claims and unbelievable profit margins exist in this arena "
It's not like a lot of other industries, who pile on extra charges for things that you aren't really receiving.
Yes, some items in the audio business have good profit margins, when I was in the business most speakers had "50 points" in them. But that's a "brick and mortar" shop, which has display and stocking requirements from all their manufacturers, must have a repair shop, etc. Electronics didn't have a large margin in them.
Listen, the whole high end audio thing is out of control. Whats happens when somebody comes up with a implant device that streams 20hz to 20khz. directly into the part of the brain that "hears" music ? This kind of tech. is just around the bend my boys.
Cannot agree with Lamm being mentioned here. I can see how someone might think of them as overpriced, but not overrated. IMO their high value comes from the sound quality of their gear, which is outstanding, and the length of time their models stay current and competitive with the best designs available. Their resale value is also solid across their lineup. From that perspective, one could argue they are not even overpriced.
As far as being overrated, only Bose comes to mind, as far as what the general public thinks.
But I can't really come up with anything else. As to overpriced, well, that's a different story.
I have no doubt that Goldmund products are well-engineered, well built, and using those big slabs of aluminum are expensive. But the prices? I just don't see it.
Same with Audio Note (Japan)...I don't doubt they are extremely fine products, all that silver, but they MUST be overpriced.
"Statement" (top-of-the line) cables...thousands of dollars, jeez louise.
HiDiamond Cables are definitely NOT in the "yawn category". I have tried several power cords and the P3 is clearly one of the best values in all of HEA. Other then a dedicated line this is the best $750(2/used P3's)I have spent. The time is now for all audiophiles to consider cables as a component NOT an accessory!
Sabai - I agree with most of what you say, but I would not put my Kimber KCAG cables in the "yawn" category, they are more in the "have served me well over the years" category. Mogami - well perhaps, but then again, they are cheap and dont claim to be miracles. I run two Synergistic research Master Coupler power cords to my MA-1 mono blocs, one with active shielding, one without, and have noticed, the one with active shielding does indeed sound a bit better. So perhaps you are referring mainly to some "yawn" models of these brands.
"Anybody who has amassed a bankroll like That is probably not on the "leading edge" of value."
I think they probably started out as perceived to be offering something which others didn't at the price. Once success takes off then of course like any company they will use the name as currency. Then it is a case of at least doing just enough and paying the advertising fees.
So I would probably have to agree.
"I do hate to slam the big name manufactures. Please some one else do it and I need a laugh."
- Yes, that's a laugh. Don't you represent them? I do love to see dealers using sites like this for their own amusement. "sounds real audio" yet they carry various speakers and amps and stuff. If you had something that sounded real you would only need one, and you would chose the cheapest that could do it. How about a more honest name: "Sounds quite good audio" (Yes, how much honesty is there in Audio?)
"How we do we truthfully determine, each for ourselves, which makers are overrated? "
- As you say Ivan_nosnibor, its all relative. What are your preferences? How big is your listening room? How does it sound compared to another? Also how much disposable income you have> If you have millions then you're not going to be hunting around in the budget end of the components market, and the cost of the component is not then that important (but I bet those people still haggle).
But as a rule I would start by "questioning the hype".
For example, on the "Sounds Real Audio" site, if you look at the bottom of the Wilson Benesch page it talks about the speed of sound in Carbon fibre and that its higher than diamond. But you don't use carbon fibre in isolation, you use it in a matrix with resin. Also you not only have speed of sound along the fibre but also across the fibre. A paper on a related subject can be read here: http://www.escm.eu.org/eccm15/data/assets/424.pdf
According to these findings speed of sound along the fibre is 10763 m/s (not 18350 as quoted on the "sounds real audio" site), and accross the fibre 3042 m/s. So if propogation of sound was the deciding factor for using carbon then Berilyum would be a better alternative at 12900 m/s as it will be the same in all directions and would be cheaper than diamond. So it looks like irrelevent information posing as something vital and necessary (and also justifies the expense, which carbon doesn't these days) and would make me suspect this manufacturer to be a candidate for being "overated".
Now it suggests later, on the same page, by the reference to converting energy to heat, that the function of the carbon is to provide damping.
Yet if you look at Vectran, surely this would be a better alternative to carbon fibre? http://www.vectranfiber.com/BrochureProductInformation/VibrationDamping.aspx
So to me what is being presented is a lot of technobable which raises doubts rather than confidence in the people publishing such hype (as well as those happily propogating it).
Any company that supposedly produces high end equipment but provides poor service would in my opinion be overated.
+1 The whole "overrated" thing is in the ear of the beholder, as indicated in the "high value DAC" example by Chriswil. However, his "poor service" definition of overrated makes the most sense of anything I have so far read in this thread.
I don't know about Atma-Sphere amps only being suitable for 5% of speakers. The odds were not on my side when I bought my Raidho C1.1 speakers. But my Atma-Sphere S-30 drives my Raidho speakers to perfection -- with the Paul Speltz auto-transformers added. I have at least 50 db. headroom on most recordings with my PS Audio DirectStream DAC that has a gain of at least 10 db. If you add the Paul Speltz auto-transformers to your system the Atma-Sphere amp should have enough power to drive most mid to low sensitivity speakers, IMHO. There are 3 settings on the auto-transformer and I use the lowest setting.
But I do agree with you about Synergistic Research cables. IMO, they should limit themselves to the tweak business, which looks like the direction they are heading.
I would add a number of other cables makers to Synergistic Research in the the BIG CABLE YAWN category: ASI Liveline, Cardas, Gabriel Gold, Grover Huffman, HiDiamond, Kimber, Mogami and Pangea -- among others.
Hi Chriswil, you make some excellent points. How we do we truthfully determine, each for ourselves, which makers are overrated?...when the truth of the matter is that because of what you say (rightfully) about manufacturing, material and development costs making up such a small portion of the final cost to customer, that the answer to that question, all things considered, might well be "just about any of them" - and as you consider that to be the lay of the land to begin with, then "just about none of them" might serve just as well...it all tends to end up pretty relative, since for any one maker you could think of as being overrated, by the same yardstick, you could probably name another and yet another, ad infinitum...until the original distinction becomes lost.
The manufacturing cost of a component is relatively small (including R+D) compared to what we ultimately pay for it. Included in the cost are things also such as anticipated warantee and customer service costs. Although the performance of a product is quite subjective, but poor service is reasonably easily measured. (If you search for the thread I started you will see who I am thinking of.) So I would like to add this aspect to the discusion. Any company that suposedly produces high end equipment but provides poor service would in my opinion be overated. On the flip side of the coin I have a pair of speakers whose components probably cost no more than 25% of the selling price. But the service I get from the seller is beyond the call of duty. So what is the true value of the speakers?
A point regarding Sevan's comment: "Some equipment clearly justifies it cost from an engineering standpoint, exotic materials, superb manufacturing, etc"
I'm not at all sure that "exotic" materials aren't chosen especially to hoodwink us into thinking it is somehow better than what went before and therefore worth paying much more for. If diamond tweeters were so great, why do hi end speaker manufacturers still use silk dome tweeters, compresion horns and so on? Marten speakers are lovely to behold but whenever I have heard them sounded so clean and analytical as to be boring. Here I should probably admit to being a fan of 300b SET and high efficiency speakers. Not exclusively. I don;t care how audio nirvana is produced,its just that this is what currently suits me best. The use of OHNO cast silver wire in products is another case in point. Audio improvement, or hype?
Also I don't think we should necessarily pay attention to what Audiophile or any other mag is touting as being the bee's knees. You really have to hear it yourself at home. What is not often discussed is the quality of the listening room. In this thread there a are several comments about how poor various components sound. IS it the component or the room that creates the poor impression? I can put my speakers in different positions in the room and each place sounds different. So how exactly do they sound? And indeed you can sometimes see this in reviews. Two different reviewers say different things about a component. Actually this is what I would expect. It is when everyone say the same things that alarm bells begin to ring. (e.g. with which manufacturer do you associate the terminoligy "PRaT" more than any other?) Subjectively it is difficult to determin what component is overated. I listend to a high value DAC in my system. sounded terrible. I listend to it at my brothers, sounded brilliant. We cant listen to everything thats available and we tend to go with those components the press say are the best. They pull our strings to a degree. Every manufacturer is out to make as much money as possible. They decide how much the local market can take. I live in Switzerland. Being taken for a ride is a way of life here.
I've disagreed with Atma-sphere on here about some things, but even his low power amp can easily drive way more than 5% of speakers. Probably well more than 95%. Go to Japan and see how everyone loves SET amps, and they are using them on similar speakers as here. Most people don't listen to music at peak SPL of 100+db. Try 85-90 at most. The wattage race of the 70's was overrated in the amps and it still is.
Anyone want to admit the regularly use 200 watts of power? If so how huge is your room 400m^2 or bigger?
"07-05-14: Judyazblues 1. Atma-sphere Amps that are suitable with 5% of all speaker systems." This is unfair! This thread is about overrated products, not how wide a range of components they can be used with. Also, I have the MA-1 monoblocs, that can probably drive 30-40 percent of speakers out there fairly well (the big MA-2s perhaps 70 percent). Basically I think Atma-sphere is underrated, for example in Stereophile. At least, for me, with well matched speakers (Audiokinesis), this is the sound I love, every day.
Scvan. I think Oppo makes a good unit, but when people start comparing them to a Krell, or Esoteric then I think they are overrated. Same thing with Emotiva good for the money, but by far the best
Do you really think Oppo is overrated? It does get a lot of great press, but dollar for dollar it is probably the best deal in audio. My Oppo relegated my Esoteric DV to spare bedroom status.
I suppose my previous message was primarily focused on Mark Levinson the man. He is the most overrated thing in audio and probably did a huge disservice to the hi-end community. He may have single handedly created the voodoo market. His ridiculously priced 4 quad speaker system, amps that were interesting (not always in a good way), but got much better once Harman bought the brand. Then came Cello. And finally his masterpiece Red Rose which was relabeled Chinese hi-fi for multiples times the price. He felt his name was worth money and not the product. He has lived his whole life that way. However, he may be ashamed of it because there is no mention of any audio related stuff on his wikipedia page which I'm sure he has edited to make sure people forget his past.
12-26-14: Gpgr4blu Tie Bose in the low-mid market and Magico at the high end.
And your viewpoint wouldn't be influenced in ANY way by the fact you have a long history of preaching the virtues of Wilson speakers on here, would it? Lol!
"I could sell you a Camry for $25000 or I could put another label on it, coat it in gold, sell it for $100k and say it is a better car, but is it?"
I hate to say it, but this is irrelevant. What defines "better"? If someone is willing to pay the price - then it's worth it to that person. Period.
Does a Patek Philip tell better time than a Casio? Is it a "better" watch? I'm willing to bet that 99.99999% of all people on the planet will say no, especially when you tell them what they sell for.
I have no problem with people selling their products for whatever they can get out of it. Lying and misleading people is a different thing altogether - but if you listen to the HDQ (in your example) and still plunked down the $28k - then how can you possibly complain about it's performance?
I'm not against people making money, but what I dislike are crazy claims, high prices and no engineering justification for it. I'm reminded of the ML HQD as a prime example of this. A $28000 speaker system in 1984 that measured poorly and sounded even worse according to Stereophile. However the designer made big claims and apparently tried to mislead the reviewer and was caught. Unfortunately this type of stuff goes on in the age where it is even easier to verify things. Some equipment clearly justifies it cost from an engineering standpoint, exotic materials, superb manufacturing, etc. Of course all that money being spent doesn't necessarily mean you have a better product, it just meant you bought a more expensive product. I could sell you a Camry for $25000 or I could put another label on it, coat it in gold, sell it for $100k and say it is a better car, but is it?
You must have a verified phone number and physical address in order to post in the Audiogon Forums. Please return to Audiogon.com and complete this step. If you have any questions please contact Support.
