Martin Logan vs. Everything

I have the older martin logan Ethos which are very close to the 13a.  They are very good speakers for details, but not as smooth as my sonus fabers.  Its more about prefrence than anything else.  Diffrent but not always better.    

Thanks everyone!!!  I had a few drinks when I wrote my original post… I’m glad to see so much love for the Logans. By the way,.. terrible sweet spot but it’s just for me and the room and system is tuned to my liking so who cares right!!! 
im super happy now with my setup and I just buy records if I want to spend money on my system. 
also I will say this… to make these speakers truly tremendous, EVERYTHING MATTERS. I had a bug zapper in the garage.. I could hear it in the panels. That’s what started me on dedicated lines, grounds, and power conditioning. I have tuned and treated every aspect of my system and it’s wonderful 

I have had ML's since 1996, which are still in my living room and have upgraded to the ESLXs in my office.  If you like the sound from the MLs that is all that matters!  The only true negative point about the MLs is that their panels loose their fidelity over time and may need to be replaced after 10 to 15 years.  I've noticed the highs have faded a bit from my 1996 models in the living room but my own ears have also faded over the years. :)  Don't worry about what the dealers are telling you, they want to sell you new speakers. Trust your own ears, no one else will experience the audio the same way that you do.  Good luck with whatever decision that you make, just remember to enjoy the music!

Unless you broke somthing, it is not your speakers.  I have a pair of older Ethos model and they sound great with the Hegel h190 and Eversolo DMP-A6 dac.  

Check your source, amp and cables. 

@tony1954 As for the @secretguy post.... his words were completely civil and exactly addressed the Original Post. He did not say he "hated" anything, nor did he proclaim that M-L sucks. He simply stated what he liked and disliked. How is that dumping? The original poster asked for it!

I don’t like Rap music, or country music, or opera!

My statement does not "dump on" those genres, nor does it judge the people who love those genres. I reserve the right to dislike things that are very good.

Oh yeah.... I love my old SL3's.... as well as my B&W's and Tannoys.  

From my experience and many others I have spoken with Magnolia is a terrible place to audition speakers. Their rooms are very badly set up.

I have the Maggie’s 3.7i and love them. 
I’ve auditioned ML’s at Magnolia several times and they sound overly bright to me. Magnolia occasionally has sales on MLs at substantial discounts. 

I am currently running a pair of Expression 13a and a pair of Aerial 10t in my music room. Previously I had a pair of Logan Summit X and Magnepan 3.7i. The Magnepans were great but I felt the Logans were just a bit better. I then sold those and stepped up to the 13a that has way better bass control and room correction. I listen to the 10t when I’m moving around and doing things but for real listening it’s the Logans. My only complaint is the small sweet spot but a nice Bourbon and a comfortable chair solves that. If you are happy with them that is all that matters, after all it’s you that has to be pleased.

First, I would say that your subjective opinion on what speakers make you happy is ALL that is important.

Second, any hi-fi salesperson is going to find what they think is the weak link (in your system or your mental armor) and exploit that for a sale, albeit that doesn't mean you shouldn't ever at least consider their input;

Third, if you have any concerns about whether a different speaker could be an upgrade, borrow them and listen. Any salesperson who comments on a weak link should be willing to lend them out.

My $.02, I had a pair of cheaper MLs and I didn't really like them, but the room placement was totally sub-optimal.  I didn't give them much of a shot before I moved on.  

I will also say that a big Magnepan like the 3 series, especially with added woofers, isn't that short on bass.  It won't necessarily push your hair back but it also has a beautiful character totally distinct from cone/box.

tony1954

840 posts

12-08-2023 at 01:24pm 

"I love Maggies, I dislike MLs."

This type of response is why I hate forums sometimes.

Why is their opinion so important to them, that they need to dump on someone else's joy?

"Martin Logan versus Everything"

yah....that doesn't invite comparisons at all. 

If you think that's "dumping" on anyone, you really need to grow a pair.

I’m a Maggie guy, but was always intrigued by ML’s. I’m considering a pair, but plan to keep my Maggie’s too. Different sounding, but both have that magical soundstage and organic sound.

My audio buddy recently passed and I have inherited his ML CLS IIz's and ML subs.  I spent many years listening to them.  They are wonderful speakers!  I had Maggie Tympani !-D's and Quad 57's earlier on.  I didn't think I could ever go back to the box, until I got JBL Hartsfield's and all Marantz tube gear.  Unfortunately I don't have room for the ML's and subs, so I will have to be listing them soon.  
Enjoy the music everyone~

ML is a very good loudspeaker.  To think that you should go looking for something better is childish if you enjoy what you're hearing now.

I first heard 'stats about 40 years ago.  I ran a pair of X-Static EC-X loudspeakers (very similar to your ML 13a) for about 10 years.  I loved the tonal balance but they just never imaged all that well for me.  Like your ML, they were a curved diaphram electrostat.  I paired them with some subs I designed.

In 2006 I moved on from them to some custom built Linkwitz Orions, which I still run to this day.  The Orions have a very similar tonal balance to my old 'stats, but image extremely well.  They are truly exceptional on voices and acoustic piano and they can deliver level and dynamics your ML 13a could only dream about.  Level and dynamics are the one short coming of 'stats.    You may think you have good dynamics, but you don't.  Really.

The Linkwitz designs are mostly home-brew DIY systems, though there is a company in Europe that sells turnkey versions of the LX521 for about $20k.  You can build the LX521 system, with amplification, for as little as $6k.  It's an extraordinary loudspeaker system with even more dynamics than my Orions.

Don't look around to find someone who has them and go listen.  It would break your heart.

I have ML Montis speakers in my 2 channel room and I love them just as much as the original poster on this thread.  I have heavily treated my room to make them as good as I possibly can, and I spent hours and hours and hours dialing them into the "perfect" location for my main listening chair.  I agree that the shortcoming of these speakers is the very small sweet spot for listening.  If I move to the adjacent chair in my room, the sound stage is underwhelming and not even close to what I experience in my primary listening spot.  For me, this is fine because I am the sole listener for 99% of the time that music is played in this room.

I have visited many high-end audio stores in search of a system that sounds better, but I have not found that system yet (and I have listened to some very pricey systems).   I would love to find something that I like better, but I haven't - so I guess that's good news.  I'm sure my wife is happy that I am happy with the current system! 

MGIIs in '70s, box spkr x 12, Quad ESL63, box speaker, EMT LFT8C for now is giving me ribbon, planar, and two dynamic drivers.

I have kinda given up on chasing now, and I'm not recommending a different speaker. Look at "previously owned" speakers available for audition. It's not yanking their chain, you might find what you are looking for. 

@tony1954 I agree but it was kind of an open question ( "Fight me." ) to who likes or dislikes them. (poll?)

I think they have a very serious product line and the science behind. It's a matter of preference. Comparing them to Magicos is a compliment.

If the OP loves his ML, that’s fantastic. Easier on his wallet.

"I love Maggies, I dislike MLs."

This type of response is why I hate forums sometimes.

Why is their opinion so important to them, that they need to dump on someone else's joy?

I never liked them that much. But their web site is probably in the top 3 of all audio web sites. Probably cost an arm an a leg. But it's a joy to browse. 

I’ve owned ML’s for 35 years. I’ve also owned Open Baffle speakers, which are a different type of dipole speaker. We all have our speaker preferences. We don’t need to attempt to justify why we choose what we do. Simply enjoy them, and allow others to enjoy their choices. It’s a big audio world with something for everyone. Be happy you found something that appeals to you. Case closed.

And @technomagus I also own Spires and have them in a smaller room. I feel zero need to upgrade. 

Great post! A dream came true for me when I was able to afford my Primaluna EVO 100 integrated. Brought my system to a whole new level of enjoyment. I could imagine your thrill, getting the MLs. I wish I had a pair. But, my DIY speakers are very good, better than the B&W by a long shot. I heard at Best Buy at Magnolia when there was one. The Martin Logans out classed everything else with a superior delivery of dynamic accurate sound. The MLs sound better than my DYIs, but they should.

Believe me, Martin Logan makes great sounding speakers. Brick and mortar like all businesses stay in business with sales. Sure they are going to weak link you. Your ears tell you all you need to know. They are unique to you, and no to people hear exactly alike. Enjoy those great MLs. I wish I could afford them.

I love Maggies, I dislike MLs.

The only answer to the dilemma of "what's best" is to have at least three main systems!

Indeed - and that's how many I have, as I am reluctant to dispose of gear that I really enjoy.

One of my systems is based on original Martin Logan CLS, and they are just magical for reproducing things like strings (but forget about using them for amplified rock music).

An earlier poster indicated that they had a narrow focus and that is true, but I don't keep my systems around for anyone else to listen to - you just set it up so that your chair is in the ideal place relative to the speakers and don't worry about anyone else in the room (except to let them sit in the listening chair for a bit)

Ignore them. There are many good speakers around, and - in my extensive experience - Martin Logan's are right up there with the very best. They aren't cheap, but they aren't hand-crafted from unobtainium by vestal virgins, which seems to be the entry-level attention getter for some dealers. I've had ML's for 23 years, and the only reason that I haven't switched to 13As or 15As is that my current Spires are just so good that I don't feel the need. People (users and dealers) who don't have any experience with electrostatics tend to simply reject the very notion, from a profound level of ignorance. Like I said, ignore 'em…

The only answer to the dilemma of "what's best" is to have at least three main systems! Now that I'm single again, that's the goal. I have a hard time going to audio shows let alone an Audio Salon. I need to get it home and listen when I'm in the mood! I've recently discovered that I don't like basements. I want to walk in my house and see my system(s). That gets the juices flowing for me. I may be dead before it all happens. Right now, I'm enjoying the journey. Joe 

See if you can find a dealer that sells Vandersteen speakers

"I have the big panels" ??

andrewkelley-Your ML's unquestionably are very good. I prefer the technology over conventional boxes.

I use an older generation of ML's to good effect with a pair of REL's as well.

But to compare them to  the Soundlab series in size/scale, the SoundLab's are in another league. 

Agreed, auxiliary bass panels and a first class sub are even better. My sub is crossed over at 50Hz, 18 dB/octave, and is imperceptible most of the time.

@tablejockey @terry9  I have the big panels and I added a pair of rel s/812 for amazing bass

Yep - many square feet of panels = good bass. 

BIGGER panels-Soundlab 

A pair of 945's will change your mind.

We should specify that the Martin Logan’s are only good if they are planar speakers.  I bought the 60XL’s before I knew what I was doing, and no one seems to think much of them.  

@firstonetallguy  that’s a great story. I heard them when I was 16, and always wanted them. I was also in magnolia with my wife 25 years later in front of the dream speakers. My wife loved the sound and the look. We took them home and my system evolved around them.i moved my b&w’s to the garage system I originally powered them with a McIntosh integrated that was perfectly suited for the b&w’s… i wasn’t long until I knew i needed to ditch the mac and get a proper amp for the Logan’s.. i’m sure that a bigger Mac could’ve done the job, but a big Mac was not in My budget and I landed on the Sanders magtech… I’m glad I did!!! 

@ andrewkelley

Martin Logan Expression ESL 13A Electrostatic Speakers
Pass Labs 260.8 Mono Amplifiers
PS Audio BHK Preamplifier
Denefrips Terminator Dac

I occasionally go to audio shows with a thumb drive of 10 critical listening songs that I know well.

When it is allowed, I will listen to 1 or 2 songs chosen to hear the noticed superior assets of the auditioned speakers.  I will go home and compare my remembered results to my above system.  I have found expensive systems that give me a better "feel" of the music, but I have not found one that gives me a better "sound" of the music. 

I have had a love of the electrostatic sound for many decades.

I entered a high-end music store in the early 1980s in Oklahoma City, just to compare what they had to my great Altec Lansing Flamenco 848a horn and large woofer speakers.  These rocked and shook my walls with their 15" woofer.  I was in my early 30s with a limited budget.  I saw a pair of tall skinny screens in a frame with a large tubed amplifier attached.  I asked what they were and was told that they were electrostatic speakers.  I think they were Acoustat or Martin Logan, I do not remember which.  He turned them on and I was blown away.  I had never heard any speakers that were so realistic in the midrange and treble.  The instruments and vocals were so real I knew I had to get them.  I asked the price and was told I would have to get the amplifier and the speakers and the combination would cost somewhere between $8,000 and $10,000.  I was extremely disappointed because I knew I would never be able to afford them.  I left the store and dreamt about those speakers for years.  I eventually forgot about them.
In early 2017 I was in Best Buy with my wife and saw a section of the store that was labeled Magnolia.  It was a Hi-Fi and TV store.  We were thinking about getting a new TV so we went in.  After a while, I entered a separate room that had several speakers with McIntosh and other amplifiers.  They also had a pair of tall skinny screens in a frame.  I know that my heartbeat got faster, my face flushed, and I froze and stared at my fantasy speakers.  All the memories came back and I just stood and enjoyed the Deja Vu.  I asked the attendant to hook them up and they sounded as good as I remembered and/or fantasized about. The sharpness, clarity, musicality, and solid bass were marvelous.  I compared them to the Bowens Wilkins 800 D2 and other high-end speakers that were also in the listening rooms and there was no comparison.  The electrostatics were so much better in every category that was important to me. Even my wife, who wears hearing aids, also noticed the difference.  Her hearing has gotten progressively worse in the last 20 years.  She has been unable to enjoy most music in the last 10 years because the speakers she has listened to were not clear enough. These electrostats changed this.  We now listen to concerts and musical shows and she enjoys what she is hearing as well as I do. 

The above history lesson was posted in 2019 but I thought it was pertinent here. 

My advice is to look as much as you want.  Change the electronics but keep the speakers.

ML speakers are great, but they can’t do what dynamic drivers can do.  I’ll take dipolar dynamic speakers from the likes of Nola, Spatial, etc. over ML any day because you get a lotta what electrostats offer along with the dynamics of traditional cone drivers that flat panels just can’t do.  And there’s the bass mismatch issue that’s always there with ML.  Pick your poison and just be happy.

The thing is I also like to spend time at hi-fi shops , whether they be brick and mortar or or online and it seems like those dealers think the Martin Logan are the weak Link in my system…

@andrewkelley , meh..sounds like the used car salesman's cousin tried to sell you sht because sales were weak that month...I actually live fairly close to Martin Logan's headquarters in Kansas. Pre-covid, you could go over there, talk to their folks, etc (great company). If you like the sound of electrostats, that's all there is to it. Forget other speakers and focus on the room and electronics.

I have owned many dynamic type speakers throughout my life. But I do like the open Planar/Electrostatic sound. I like very much the Martin Logan or even the Magnepan sound, but there always seemed to be tradeoffs, especially in the bass. Never heard an open baffle design though.

I ended up buying the Clarisys Minute speakers. The first Planar speakers I have owned. It has been a learning experience with room/sound treatments (none) cables, speaker placement etc.

Today, after I have lived with these speakers a few months, I doubt if I could go back to another dynamic speaker. There is just something so natural and open in the sound quality that is so easy on the ears.

ozzy

I have heard many people say that the closest sound to electrostats are open baffle speakers. Have you listened to any?

In my experience, people who like electrostatics very rarely switch to cone based drivers. (I know most MLs are hybrid) but they are fundamentally electrostatics.

I’m a proud owner of ML Classic 9’s setup in a small bedroom, max size speaker for the space but with some properly placed acoustic panels to control reflections the sound is immersive and clear, a B&W sub makes sure the bass is deep and tight enough to be felt in your chest…I can’t imagine another speaker that could accomplish this in that room (I’m sure there….but I’m not seeking them out!).  Now I’m trying to re-explore vinyl as my diversion as I’m completely happy with my overall sound. 

  I put off trying Martin Logans for most of my life thinking they were not a real speaker, or a gimmick, I could not have been more wrong. Now I have a pair of Theos in my main HT and they sound amazing. I have not noticed the negatives many have mentioned. They simply sound different from other speakers and I like that. Just utterly clear vocals, huge sound stage, details I have never heard before, and they make my HT come alive . I am pairing these with a Stage center, Dual SVS SB3000's and some Def Tec surrounds.   I thought I would like the Montis more but I was wrong, I guess they were too big for my room or something but I like the way the Theos integrate in my system much more. I am powering these with a Bryston 4B3, so there are no power issues. But you have to remember how highly subjective this is to one's own tastes. 

  I thought there could not be a box speaker that could do what the ML does at a price I could afford and I was wrong about that also. Luckily there was a hi fi shop that would let you take stuff home near me and try stuff out in your own home for 15 days.  I went through 6 pairs and eventually got some used Audio Physic Avanti III. To me they are in a league of their own and simply disappear while throwing up a huge immersive sound stage with every nuance and detail coming through. FWIW, these are not new but were 11k 20 years ago.  These were Michael Fremer's reference speakers for a while and he did a glowing review of them for Sterophile.

  If you have the right space and proper set up, Martin Logan's are hard to beat, IMO.

Note to self : never type anything like this first thing in the morning again. 

Gentleman,

I have heard this debate before. Here is my 40 year experience with high end audio. It doesnt matter !!!! A well setup system with a box or a electrostatic, dipole design will sound great. I have heard both sound just phenomenal when setup properly with that synergy which is hard to get sometimes. Do your homework, and enjoy. I currently have Quad S2 a class B, and a brand-new pair of Marzipans LRS+ What my wife calls them, and I am running tube gear. I could not be happier.

I had a pair of ML e-stat's - loved them except three nit-picks:

1. Small sweet-spot
2. Demanding current (1.8 ohm)
3. 'Hybrid' bass was "slow" compared to panels

I replaced them with Linkwitz LX-mini + Linkwitz Phoenix (alt) OB-subs (x2). This resulted in same virtues of e-stats plus; sounds great everywhere in the room (no room treatments), easily driven with pair of Hypex FA-123, and articulate bass that keeps-up. Actually, that open-baffle bass was the biggest surprise - last thing I'd give up. Those little LX-mini's replaced Tekton DI (upgraded), B&W, and ML's. And I know exactly what you mean about ML e-stats - they were the last to go.

Still a big fan of ML and use them in the HT system for center/side/surround/atmos - where GoldenEar Triton One's are the mains there.

So to answer your question... what contenders are there with similar attributes...

Linkwitz LX-mini or LX521.4, Magnepan (never owned, but there is quite a following - likely good reason), Spatial Audio, Pure Audio PrProject, GR-Research, Kii and Dutch&Dutch will all likely provide similar sound attributes.

I owned them and even modded the Xovers to better parts ,they don’t have the dynamic impact and imaging is a bit diffuse ,soundstage is though very big 

,sound labs are a much better speaker ,much bigger but has its own section 

for highs,mids,and Bass ,and separate box for transformers they are by far the best electrostatic speaker made , at the time I traded the ML13A for Big Sonus Faber Sarafino speakers which I though much more uniform as a whole ,their new G2 

are much better still but more $$ costly as is theSound labs.. to each their own 

they are still a good speaker ,the ML prefer a powerfull SS amp to sound their best .

Wow! It’s great to see all this love for the Logans @erik_squires  mentioned dynamics.. I added a pair of rel s/812 a year ago and it definitely took everything to the next level.  @newbee the Logan’s are very particular what you feed them.I basically Taylor’s my whole system around them. They need absolute quiet power.. (I once had a bug zapper bulb in  garage and you could hear it coming through the panels. I now have dedicated lines, and grounding ) they also need lots of watts and love high voltage amps so I use the sanders magtech http://sanderssoundsystems.com/products/amplifiers/magtech-amp

@bigtwin  the sweet spot is very sweet but small I’ll agree. I have been able to broaden it with my room treatments though 

Modern speakers are overpriced in my opinion. 

So you've heard all "modern" speakers at every price point in your system...?

If YOU think they are good, then why should we fight you? Personally they are not for me. However De gustibus non est disputandum.

You're absolutely not wrong so don't let a salesman's goal to sell you different speakers influence you. Also, don't let some self-important person who knows nothing about you influence you with talk about a "weak link" in your system. They only look at price which isn't even close to the only factor. e,g. Schiit.

I own a pair of ML Prodigy. They sounded good until I heard what appeared to be a middle C disconnect between ESL panel and cone driver (which @ghdprentice alludes to). Then I tried the Quad 2905 - much improved.

Best of all, the Quad ESL’s can be hot-rodded way up with a better power supply (you may laugh, but it’s demonstrable) and better high voltage caps, and better step up transformers. I’ve done the experiments and every upgrade is significant, not at all subtle. To me. YMMV