Looking for a good system for my apartment. Any advise?
Okay so $5k. So what else? Are we starting from scratch? Or do you have something like speakers you can use? Everything counts. If you have an iPod or cell phone with music on it, that's a source. You mention turntable first which is right, the turntable is The First among Equals. But you don't mention records, which a turntable kind of needs. Generally speaking, with that kind of budget and wanting to play records the smart (read, cost-effective) thing is to look for an integrated amp with a built-in phono stage. However- and this is kind of a big however- you need to know a few things about that. The phono stage is a huge factor in sound quality, and stand-alone phono stages are almost always way better than built-ins. In other words just this one seemingly simple decision revolves around a bunch of things like how you prioritize "serious" sit-down listening (turntable rules) over background tunes (DAC will do) and other things like long term plans. Component choices in other words are different for the guy who wants a system and that's it, done, than the guy for whom this system is just the first step on a long journey. |
Hey millercarbone, Thanks for chiming in! I'll be starting from scratch. I don't have any vinyl yet but the turntable will serve as motivation for me to start my collection. I will take your advise on the stand alone phono stage. What model do you recommend? (just now learning about it- also known as a phono preamp). ".. it corrects the tonality of the music that is carved into the record so that the music sounds right. " Pretty cool I must say- never knew about that). From what I understand, this thing also significantly increases the bass, which I loooove. As for the integrated amp, do you have a make/model in mind for this as well? Also, what about a receiver? I like to listen to some radio stations from time to time (classical, jazz, etc). As for the turn table and speakers, what would you recommend I look at? I am the guy who wants to take the first step on a long journey. Yes, I have background tunes going more for atmospheric (mood setting) for when I study, do work, etc. But than I also love to be fully absorbed and intentional about my listening experience when I'm not in front the computer. Am I making sense here (or more appropriately, hear)? Thank you. |
Okay. You have a huge amount to learn. $5k is serious money. You owe it to yourself to put in the time to do it right. The difference is anyone can spend $5k and wind up with nothing more than an expensive stereo. For the same $5k I can blow your mind. No one will ever believe its only $5k. People will wonder why they never heard anything in their life this good. If you can get to 20% of that you'll be better than just about anyone you ever saw. Right now you are starting from zero. Do not buy anything yet. The signal on a record is equalized with the bass turned down 20dB and the treble turned up 20dB. This is called RIAA equalization. Playing a record the cartridge generates only a fraction of a millivolt to maybe 1mV. This is way too low a voltage and way too messed up EQ to listen to. The phono stage is required to equalize and amplify. The signal coming out of the phono stage is now flat and high at what we call line voltage, around a volt or two, the same as other components like a CD, tape or tuner or streamer, etc. Cartridges can be moving coil, moving magnet, or moving iron. Each has their fans, strengths, and weaknesses. You need to learn at least a little about cartridges. At your price range you will want a turntable with arm, or maybe even a package of table/arm/cart. Each really is its own thing and at a higher level you definitely want to be considering each one separately. But at your budget level it makes more sense to do a package. Same goes for the phono stage. But you do need to understand. Because in looking you may come across a very fine integrated amp but it is only line stage. No phono. That's fine. You get a separate phono stage. Just need to be aware. Its way too early to be talking specific components. First you need a plan. One might be $5k breaks down into $1k each for amp, speakers, turntable, CD, and wire. This is very rough, just to give some idea, so you don't spend $2k on speakers like a lot of guys would and wind up either way over budget or with no money for cables, etc. $1k is probably more than needed for CD, and less than for the table, but again its not a requirement its more of a guide. Now what you do, instead of asking a bunch of random dudes what to buy, now you know how your budget breaks down you go reading reviews of amps, speakers, etc in your price range. When reading reviews pay attention to only a very few things. With speakers, sensitivity. Anything less than 92dB ignore. They will eat power and force you to waste money chasing more power. Virtually any amp with 20 watts or more will be plenty if your speakers are over 92dB. With MC cartridge you want medium output, nothing less than .5mV. This makes phono stage selection a lot less critical. These two simple things will make your life a whole lot easier. That's it for technical stuff. Get those right and then all you care about is sound quality. When reading reviews skip right past the stupid tech stories, go straight to the listening impressions. Features are generally more BS just like tech stories. How's it sound? All you need to know. Then go hit some stores. Listen to as much stuff as you can. Listen to much more expensive gear. Listen to much cheaper gear. There's a way to get the most from this. Its not what everyone says, "bring your reference recordings." Its make the sales guy change something. This is critical! You can listen to a dozen systems and learn almost nothing. You listen to one system, make the guy change a power cord, interconnect, or amp, now you just learned a lot. Huge difference. Its a hassle so nobody does it. Just do it. Advice so good it was the Nike slogan for 20 years. |
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I recommend you speak with Walter L who owns Underwood HiFi He is a wealth of knowledge and fantastic prices on products, many of which are his own and sold direct (including amps, preamps, headphone amps, turntables, cables, power conditioners..., eliminating dealer markup. He also buys closeouts from well known companies I have purchased amps and speakers, over the decades hth |
For an apartment I like the idea of stand mount speakers. This approach sends less music to neighbors. I agree that with a $5000 budget you can put together a very nice system. Are you willing to purchase some items used? For the same sound quality, vinyl is more expensive that digital. Which is most important? I would limit my choices of speakers that would play well with 50-80wpc into a medium size room. What is room size? Consider integrated amplifiers. There are many that have both internal DACs and phonostages. A great way to get started within budget. If desired an external DAC or phonostage can be added at a later date as funds become available. Select speakers that have reasonable sensitivity and not difficult to drive impedance wise (therefore fitting the 50-80wpc power restriction). Well, I need to get a bird on, happy Thanksgiving! |
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I saw this setup at an audio show in Toronto a year ago .... a GREAT. modest priced system....the in-person audition was jaw-dropping for its price- point strata. Here is the show reporter take on it that echoes that sentiment . It impressed me enough to buy the TRIANGLE. standmount speakers for my “C” system that I listen to in my office daily. highly recommended .... ”.... In one room, Toronto retailer Star Electronics / Motet demonstrated that you can achieve some great sound without spending a ton of money. The affordable system here showcased the Triangle Borea bookshelf speakers ($599), Triangle Tales 340 subwoofer, Music Hall A15.3 integrated amp ($750), Music Hall C-DAC15.3 DAC / transport ($750) and Music Hall mmf-2.3wh turntable. The music had me tapping my toes in seconds flat. Vocals were vibrant, clean, articulate and full of emotion. Guitars displayed detailed string textures as they danced around in the mid / high ranges. The bass was also surprisingly deep and well articulated for such a small and inexpensive system. Overall, this was perhaps the highest value system I had the pleasure of listening to at the show. Amazing value!...” |
@mesch
Thanks for the sage advise! As for the neighbors, we only share (1) wall.. so a non-issue. I agree that with a $5000 budget you can put together a very nice system. Are you willing to purchase some items used?- Yes of course! Any way to bring that 5k down a rung or two, the better. For the same sound quality, vinyl is more expensive that digital. Which is most important? Good question. I prefer vinyl (the sound is just richer and more flavorful in my opinion). That being said, it'll be a healthy mix of the two since (as of now) the majority of the music i listen to is "streaming" from the internet or from my own dig. library. I would limit my choices of speakers that would play well with 50-80wpc into a medium size room. What is room size?Room size is: roughly 13' x 25'. Good to know. I read that.. "As a general guideline, it is better to get an amplifier that is slightly more powerful than your speakers are rated for. " So perhaps go w/a 150pc amp in this case? Consider integrated amplifiers. There are many that have both internal DACs and phonostages. A great way to get started within budget. If desired an external DAC or phonostage can be added at a later date as funds become available.Good suggestion. Select speakers that have reasonable sensitivity and not difficult to drive impedance wise (therefore fitting the 50-80wpc power restriction).What is a good example of this? Well, I need to get a bird on, happy Thanksgiving!I should do the same .. but I'm trapped in this sonic rabbit hole. I'll need a lifeline if I can't pull myself out on my own. |
Seems to me you want amp/pre/radio/cd/tt/speakers. And you want a system that (1) sounds good. (2) is of interest (in some way) to audiophiles. Now lots of us have systems under 5K that sound fantastic. But to get what you want on point 2, you're pressing it here: every component you get means a bit less you can spend on another one, and there will be compromises throughout that system (which will become apparent as/if you upgrade). Why not look for a reconditioned tube receiver, which will only set you back say 1-1.5K. Then you don't have to worry about which phono-pre-amp and DAC converter you need or that your $300 interconnects mean you have to downgrade the speakers you want, or go through the whole 'which should I spend on? pre- or power-amp). You'll have plenty left over to buy the best tt, speakers, and cd-player you want. And the whole set up will look cool as hell. (You'll have plenty of power--my amps run from 8-20W and they fill rooms bigger than that). And I've found they sound just fine either with modern speakers or old KLH ones. |
As a retailor who specializes in systems in this price range we think we can offer you real advice based on 30 years experience a limítedrange monitor you Will hate on the Dead you need a speaker which Will offer good performance at reasonable levels one if the Best sounding ndtotañly apartamen friendly speakers is the new warfedale lintons A rega p3 is a great table An nad c368 preampdac and streamer with room correction Will give you everythingyou need A tiny nuprime sta9 Will drive the speakers wonderfully well Lintons speakers 1500 Preamp/dac/streamer 1500 Table. 1145 Amp795 In a word extraordinary performance full streaming and room correction to help optomize the system to the room Unbeatable for the price andyou can later add another nuprime amp and run them as mono blocks for improved sound So in one system you have a dac and streamer room corection an upgrade path to mono amps And a great looking set of speakers that are very apartament friendly Dave and troy Audio intellect nj Rega nuprime nad dealers |
Integrated amps to consider: -Belles Aria -Ayre AX7e -Schiit Ragnarok -Rogue Sphinx DACs to consider: -MHDT Orchid -Audio Mirror Tubadour -Schiit Gungir Multibit -Schiit Bifrost Multibit CD Transports to consider: -Cambridge Audio CXC -Audiolab CDT6000 Cables to consider: -Blue Jeans -Signal Cable -Analysis Plus Streamer to consider: -Bluesound Node2i -Speakers to consider -Wharfedale Linton -Wharfedale Evo Completely different option... -KEF LS50W 2 (Metas) -phono preamp + turntable -CD TRANSPORT (Audiolab / Cambridge Audio -SUBS (REL, Rythmik, SVS) Anyway you cut it though, $5k is on the low end to get a nice system together if you are trying to do 3 different sources... cd, streaming, turntable. I’d almost recommend spending that same $5k on cables, stands, a few acoustic panels, speakers, preamp and amp, dac, and either a transport or streamer. THEN later on I’d add a turntable, THEN whichever I didn’t buy first, the transport or streamer. You could do things in phases. If you got the Belles Aria for instance, you could use the on board phono stage until you were ready to buy something that would be a substantial upgrade. |
Since you're starting off fresh forget about Dac's, streamers, etc. for now. They can come later after the basic system is built. Take millercarbon's advice about a standalone phono stage. I learned that early on. Avoid tables with a built in phono stage or amps that have them. You will be rewarded later if you decide to upgrade the table and/or cartridge. The OLD philosophy about building a good system was to spend about half of one's budget on speakers. That may or may not still hold true but in "those days" attention wasn't paid much to the quality of cables and other factors. But speakers are still a critical component. Since you like strong bass there's a major cost consideration here. Floor standers can deliver that. But you may find a sound that you prefer as much or more with good stand mounts plus a sub or two and be a bit easier on your budget. An integrated amp seems to be your best option for now since you will be able to add components as budget and wants warrant. You can read for decades about user opinions and equipment reviewers and not find many that agree with each other. There is no replacement for an in person audition. If you live in an area that has at least one or more dealers go there and do some listening. If a friend has some vinyl recordings that you know well take those along. The listening room at the dealer will not sound the same as the one at your home. But it is a good starting point. Room treatments can be significant but that's something to address once you have your basic system going. Best of luck in your voyage. |
Except listening to many systems you can also read some reviews or listen to Youtube reviews. Here is Steve Guttenburgs recommendations for a sub $2500 system. I don't think it contained both streaming and LP so you will go up a bit in price. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Y3SUdc7J2M I have not seen this video but it may be of use for you https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2b45ydywWss Also The Absolute Sound and Stereophile both has recommended components in varying price ranges. TAS has more "cheap" systems if I remember correctly. IMHO it is worth buying a magazine or two to get their lists. |
Agree 100% with maxwave and twoleftears on researching speakers first. Also, heed millercarbons advice on speaker sensitivity. Look up the exponential energy requirements as it relates to how loud you need/want to go. As a newbie to this hobby, I bought my first speakers not knowing any better than to consider power requirements. Didn't even think about which type of speaker to best match my music preferences. Thus my diminutive Magnepan LRSs refused to shine with a 50wpc class A Forte 1A. Stepping up to a 100wpc class A/B Michael Yee Audio PA-1 yielded a noticeable improvement. A Hegel H190 - even better. BUT,... it wasn't until breaking the budget on a Bryston BP26 preamp along with a pair of 300wpc Ampzilla 2000 2nd editions that the power hungry Magnepans started to perform at or near their best. Don't fall into the same rabbit hole! All the best, Happy Thanksgiving and stay safe! |
Try Elac speakers and integrated amp. Andrew Jones is a brilliant engineer. He created some of the best speakers, TAD, and now he is using his talent to create affordable speakers for Elac. Their discovery integrated has built in room correction, lots of bang for the buck. Try finding a used Parasound JC3+ phone stage. |
Parasound makes a great integrated amp with just about everything you could want.The prior model Halo 5 should be available used for $1500 and it will work magic with a used pair of Magnepan 1.7i or 1.7 which should be available for another $1500 or less if you go with the 1.7 leaving enough for a tt, CD player and possibly a used sub. Enjoy the journey |
fojomo the Quatros never fail to amaze me I am a fan of Vandersteens you might want to demo a pair of 2ce sigII you could fined a good price on them sense the new model is out and I would get one front end piece turntable or CD player I would do a steamer or the turntable if you are going to do tubes for the amp demo a Rogue Cronus Mag I had one with my Vandersteen 2ce sigII great combo Enjoy the Music Tom |
Try Elac speakers and integrated amp. Andrew Jones is a brilliant engineer. He created some of the best speakers, TAD, and now he is using his talent to create affordable speakers for Elac. Their discovery integrated has built in room correction, lots of bang for the buck. Try finding a used Parasound JC3+ phone stage. |
Ok, $5000 is the upper limit of your budget, you would prefer less. You want a Turntable and CD playback. You would consider upgrades as money becomes available. Lets start with CD playback. I would purchase a CD transport that plays into a DAC. I own a Cambridge CXC which retails at $600 however can be found discounted. There are others, check out Cd transports on this forum. Audio Advisor sells the Cambridge and the Audiolab, both aforementioned herein. Another option is to purchase a CD player having digital output. Either way you can take advantage of upgrading the DAC should you choose. Regarding the TT. I would allocate ~$700 to $1000 for this source. You are purchasing 3 components, table, arm and cartridge. Most in this price range have compatible table and arm with a budget moving magnet (MM) cartridge. You will also need a phonostage between the TT and amplifier. There are some budget phonostages available. Project, NAD, Schiit to name three. Next we consider the integrated amplifier. As you know they can be found as line level only, or having a internal DAC, and/or internal phonostage. Now this is where some discussion regarding possible future upgrades comes in. If one owns quality CD transport and turntable, one can upgrade the DAC. If one owns a quality TT, one can make improvements upgrading the cartridge and/or the phonostage. The key is to have an amplifier that mates well with the speaker. Speakers, room size, and loudness levels will dictate the power need of the amplifier. There are a number of speaker what would play well into your room when provided with a 50-100wpc integrated. If one were to find one having both an internal DAC and MM phonostage. That said it is easier to find one that has DAC only. This would save money on separate components and additional cables. This approach would be a good starting point when on a sub $5000 budget, allowing greater expenditure on sources and speakers, significant improvements at a later date and while allowing you to experience your music collection now. I will mentionone such amp, the Yamaha A-S701. I retails at $750 and can be found discounted. It provides 100wpc, and has internal DAC with coax and optical input and a MM phonostage. I own one and find it to be very good. I have not used the phonostage. Ok, the choice of speakers is the most subjective of choices and therefore hardest for others to recommend. Again when on a budget I suggest those the reasonable sensitivity, 86-90dB and 6-8ohm impedance. There are so many that would work well within your situation. The Wharfedale Linton speaker has been mentioned.. There is a review in The Absolute Sound. Cost is $1200 w/out stands, $1500 with. An east to drive speaker with a 50-100wpc amp. Music Direct carries it and allows for returns. Speakers are one place to save purchasing used, or dealer demos. Moving forward I advise you to check out local stores, Music direct and Audio Advisor as online outlets, and then consider starting specific threads on this forum concerning component options. A CD transport playing into the Yamaha A-S701 using it's DAC driving a pair of Wharfdale Lintons on there stands would make for a very nice system at a retain cost of $2850. Leaving considerable funds for a vinyl system for a total under $5000. This to serve as an example, not the only option component wise. Good luck in your endeavor and please keep us posted. |
First thing is to audition speakers. They are as different as cuisine. I would be absolutely certain to audition Magnepan speakers. When I was in a similar situation, I fell in love with Magnepan speakers and spent 70% of the budget there. It was a very good decision. Spend as little as possible on cables, I mean like $20 each. Cables do make a difference, BUT (1) it is a major profit centre for someone else (2) expensive is not better (3) cost benefit ratio is lower than for anything else (4) when you buy real cheap, you can wait for the upgrade itch, test alternative cabling in your own system at your leisure, and let something prove it's worth. Then buy it and throw away the old stuff. Or, you can risk burning 20% of your budget for nothing. IMO. YMMV. For perspective, my system is costly, DIY, and high end. |
Lots of good advice here. I think those who suggest deciding on speakers first are spot on. If you get a speaker that is too bright/boomy/laid back/etc. for your personal tastes, then it doesn't matter what else you put in the system. You won't like it. Personally, I agree with the recommendation of the Wharfedale Lintons. By all accounts, they have enough bass to fill your room, are easy to drive, have a very musical sound, are a good bargain, can be ordered with stands, and can be demoed with Music Direct's return policy. I think it's about as safe a choice as you can find. You'd then be able to drive them with any number of reasonably priced integrated amps that have a good phono stage built in - Rega Brio ($995), Music Hall 15.3a ($549). This would be the foundation of a very musical, enjoyable system, and would put you at about $2.500 if purchased new. Then, you could look at a turntable like the Mobile Fidelity Studio Deck Foundation turntable with cartridge ($1000), your choice of streamer/CD player (sorry, I don't have a digital setup, so I can't really recommend anything specific) for around $1,000), and cables for $500. In my opinion, an approach like this will allow you to build an enjoyable, engaging system that will just let you enjoy your music collection. And that's what this hobby is all about. A couple of years ago, I downsized from a much more expensive rig to components in the price range you are considering. I was pleasantly surprised by how much good sound could be had for reasonable money. Feel free to PM me if you want to talk more. Good luck, and enjoy the journey! Scott |
Although I have major $’s invested in my analog system (well over $5K), I wouldn’t recommend starting with one, unless you have an extensive vinyl collection already. Do you have a large CD collection? If not, pass on the CD player. Or rip your CDs and play them through an audio streamer. Focus on speakers, integrated amp (w/FM tuner), an audio streamer, DAC and headphones. For speakers, audition as many as you can. Preferably in YOUR apartment. You have already been given a lot of advice here. I’d recommend budgeting $1,500 - $2,000. Integrated amp: going used gives you a lot of bang for your buck. I’m partial to Yamaha but Sony, Luxman and Accuphase can also be great value. Some models bundle in FM receivers and phono preamps as well, so if you do decide to dive into a vinyl rig at a later date, you won’t need to buy a separate phono pre. Budget: up to $1,300 Streamer vs audio PC: The choice between these two largely depends on your skillset and how much time you want to commit. A streamer is simply a specialized computer that is optimized for audio. Personally, I run a fan-less, small footprint PC connected to an external HD. The software I use is JRiver Media Centre 26. Budget: up to $1,000. DAC: The expected resolution of the digital files you will stream will dictate the type of DAC. e.g. if you listen to MP3 vs CD rips (44.1kHz/16 bit) vs 96kHz/24bit vs DSD files. As with everything in audio, there are very vigorous (and passionate) debates on this subject. It’s a personal preference. There are lots of very good DACs to be found, used, for under $500 (Teac, Schiit, Topping, Bryston, Bel Canto, etc.). Budget: $500. Headphones: Seeing as you live in an apartment, I would be remiss in not recommending headphones (for those times when you want to re-live that concert experience). Planar magnetic headphones represent very good value. HiFiMan HE-4xx, as an example, can be had, new, for $120. Of course, as with everything in audio, the sky is the limit. Whether or not you’ll also require a headphone DAC will depend on your choice of integrated amp or DAC. Some models have headphone amps built-in. Budget: $120 - $200 Hopefully something in the above mess I wrote is helpful to you in your search. Happy hunting! |
Ok, to ammend my last post, I’d buy used. I forgot to mention that... I saw a pair of Lintons withstands for $850 awhile back. A Belles Aria can be had for $1400, same with an Ayre AX7e. Both are very high quality units and are rated at 60 and 75 watts respectively. You can get a Schiit Bifrost Multibit for $500 or a Schiit Gungir Multibit for $800. I’d pair it with a Bluesound node 2i ($450 refurbed) and a used Cambridge CXC for $400. Thats $3150, lets round up to $3300. Then I’d spend around $200 on cables from Blue Jeans. The Belles Aria has a great Headphone Amp and supposedly has a nice phono pre as well. My Aria streaming Amazon HD through my Gungir Multibit into my Periodic Audio BE’s sounds fantastic! Listening to my headphones is no longer a downgrade. |
