@rvpiano  @mulveling Regular albums absolutely do benefit from higher end cartridges. That's a big part of the reason I have gone down that path of upgrades. If I just cared about boutique audiophile reissues I would have been done upgrading long before many of the changes/upgrades I have made in recent years. My primary motivation for system improvements is to bring more out of all the regular records I have collected over the last 50+ years. I think one of the biggest benefits I get out of using my Lyra Atlas Lambda SL is how well my old classical records (from 60s, 70s, etc) play with it. The audiophile records already sounded great with lesser cartridges. The regular records benefited more, IMO.

I bet, at this level I would choose Japanese MC as well. I don't like too much energy in high frequences. Japanese understand sound, no doubt about it.

mulveling, judging by your description Ortofon doesn't sound appealing. Do you like Lyra cartridges ?

I actually did enjoy the Windfeld Ti and A90 - they're not completely dry & analytical, nor without their own unique charms. The Windfeld Ti is quite a punchy and dynamic cartridge, to go along with its high level of detail - it has some decent body to its mids - and its balance is not too tipped in favor of HF's. Also have to respect that Ortofon has really pushed the envelope of experimenting with technologies and designs. 

But in the end it was still sort of hit-or-miss; some days I loved it and others I'd just lose patience and return to the warm embrace of Japanese MC's. 

No Lyra's yet. I'm curious, but the rep of tipped-up HF has kept me away so far. 

mulveling, judging by your description Ortofon doesn't sound appealing. Do you like Lyra cartridges ?

Clearaudio Launches New Flagship Diamond Jubilee MC Cartridge

limited to 45 units, priced at $29,000

Of course, I could not afford the setup that a 10K cartridge would require, but I have a question. What type of LP would be up to the task of producing such high quality sound? It seems to me that only the highest quality audiophile discs would justify such a cartridge. I don’t believe the run of the mill LP would benefit, but I may be wrong.

Literally any decent sounding LP - there are tons out there. And again, a lot of the difference is just "different sound" with "better" being harder to quantify and agree upon. You might be blown away by a $10K cartidge one day, only to later find a $2K cart you like even better. If you want to go for the most "accurate and resolving" cartridges, I'd probably look at the latest top-end Ortofons or (based on impressions of others - I have not heard these myself) the DS Audio optical carts. The couple times I heard an Ortofon Anna (which is now outdated) it sounded reminiscent of really good, very high-end digital. The A90, Windfeld MC and Ti walk that line a bit, too.

Go home $5K and $10K cartridges. You're all drunk.

 https://trackingangle.com/features/clearaudio-launches-new-flagship-diamond-jubilee-mc-cartridge

Of course, I could not afford the setup that a 10K cartridge would require, but I have a question. What type of LP would be up to the task of producing such high quality sound? It seems to me that only the highest quality audiophile discs would justify such a cartridge. I don’t believe the run of the mill LP would benefit, but I may be wrong.

how do you choose cartridge that your arm will track perfectly ?

@inna Good tonearms are a trick!

You'll want to use a calculator like this one.

A good arm will have absolutely no slop between the cartridge mount and the base of the arm. Its very hard to do this with a jeweled bearing since over-tightening such a bearing could result in damage.

The arm tube should be damped in some manner so it can't resonate while the cartridge is tracking.

Its helpful to have the arm bearings in the same plane as the vinyl so the tracking pressure is constant with warp and bass modulation.

The arm must be very adjustable so settings can be dialed in precisely.

Putting Ralph's # 1 at the center, how do you choose cartridge that your arm will track perfectly ? And we are talking about extremely expensive cartridges here, no margin for error unless you want to end up with BS.

@atmasphere 

Thanks for the post, which is a good example of why I like this forum.  It's an excellent opportunity to learn more than just about the underlying audio issue.

mulveling, you just seem to like cartridges more than the rest of analogue front end! And I like the table more than others.

It is not a mistake to think like I do - it is a different approach. And I follow it.

$30k table, $15k arm, $25k phono stage

Agree with others - it’s a mistake to think like this. For example, the top-range Koetsu cartridges match brilliantly to Fidelity Research arms that can be found quite easily under $2K (used). There are other affordable arms they’ll sound great with too. You actually DON’T want to put them on a modern high-end straight, low mass, highly damped arm. That's not their sonic partner. It will sound dull and boring. 

$25k phono is gratuitous. Go for it, if you can and have the desire. But much more moderate stages can do wonderfully. The match of MC cartridge to MC stage is crucial (especially as lo-MC’s have lower output levels), but it’s not necessary to shovel anywhere near that much money in.

Same with the table. You can have well less than $10K total in arm, cartridge, phono - and still get the "full Koetsu" experience out of whatever stone you put on it.

Someone else said you can sometimes be pleasantly surprised by placing a very high-end component into a more modest system, and vice versa: placing a very budget component into a very high-end system. I’ve certainly found that can be true, in both cases.

@inna @rauliruegas  and @lewm both make good points. I have two more to offer that are in the same vein:

1) the ability of the arm to properly track the cartridge is far more important than what cartridge you have.

2) there is something called the Veblen Effect where there is abnormal market behavior where consumers purchase the higher-priced goods whereas similar low-priced (but not identical) substitutes are available. It is caused either by the belief that higher price means higher quality, or by the desire for conspicuous consumption. 

The thing to keep in mind here is that a more expensive item might only be more expensive for that reason alone.  High end audio is driven be intention rather than price; this means that there is often a less expensive device that can perform and sound better for less (sometimes a lot less) money.

There is some good description of what makes a difference here, from the founder of Soundsmith: https://youtu.be/F65mODzn4Gk?si=chNaLUA7EOkvrW6s

@neonknight I find myself wondering same.. across 3 TT, arms , etc… but as you say it’s a hobby..i prefer passionate affliction… To paraphrase Lew.. my current self is thankful …

$30k table, $15k arm, $25k phono stage

@inna 

I believe you can reach a high quality analog rig for less.   Targeting a rig good enough to play top carts but at least cost while minimally sacrificing Sonic quality, I got a used VPI Avenger Rim drive $8k (excellent established mass type turntable), new 4point (excellent price/performance) n Schroeder tonearms $5-10k, used VDH Grail SB phono stage $6.5k (bargain priced current phono to lower noise floor). With this I run top carts from Lyra, VDH, Koetsu….  One drawback - if I want to run a SUT, then I’ll have to get a quality “voltage” phono stage

I'll never be at that range so,forget about it...not even 1k.

Why not ? After all, six is not sixty, that was reasonable.

My today self is amused by my then self for even taking the trouble to assemble 6 pairs of power cords, let alone doing the listening test.

Interesting power cord comparison with your Sound Labs.

And speaking of tonearm/cartridge match..

I'll let others speak, I don't know much about it.

Conversely, I evaluated 6 different power cords providing power to the bias supplies of my Sound Lab ESLs.  I did not expect to hear much if any difference, but I did hear a hardware store power cord (the stock cord. provided by Sound Lab) come in second to a ribbon type power cord from Maple Shade, which was by far NOT the most costly of the 6 cords I evaluated.  LIkewise, one ought not to generalize that cartridges can in any way be ranked for SQ according to cost. You can do it, but you will be ignoring some superb cartridges.

ghdprentice, of course.

I once put $2k power cord on $1k integrated amp and it was much better compared to $500 power cord, let alone $100 power cord.

OP,

I agree that this proportion, in general, makes the most sense.

That is about what I have and am waiting to for the right time to make the jump.

However, a couple of my friends have put a $12K cartridge on a ~ $10K table / arm and ~$10K phono stage. The difference was very amazing... of course they had very high quality speakers / preamp / amp. So, it is just like the rest of high end audio... there are rules of thumb that sometimes can be broken.

In general, I have found if you have all really great components... sometimes you can drop in something of much greater or lessor value and the outcome is surprisingly good. But I wouldn’t build systems like this. You always want to put the odds on your side.

$30k table, $15k arm, $25k phono stage and you may be ready for $10k cartridge. Or perhaps it is $40k table and $10k arm. Whatever. And don't forget about tonearm cable, it is the most important cable in the entire chain. Oh, and motor controller for the table. That would be excellent though still not top of the line analogue front end.

The answer is yes but usually with a highly transparent audio chain. 

I started out with a Pickering in a Garard when I was in high school. That was $50.

I moved up to a Stanton on a Dual 1229 in college.

Next was a Koetsu on a Sumiko MMT on a VPI HW MK II. This retailed at the time for about $900 at the time I believe.

I bought a Benz Micro as an alternate and back up. About $800. I’m selling it if anyone is interested.

I believed in the law of diminishing returns and thought that was it. But I was gifted a Koetsu Onyx, and that was a big jump. That’s $9,900 retail.

I bought a rosewood signature second hand for $1,100.00 as a backup. Very silky, not as much oomph on the bottom, great for solo and concerto classical. 

I bought a Koetsu Leopard. $11,000 retail. I paid nowhere near that. It sounds different from the Onyx. It does the bottom end better than the onyx, and it has more of an excitingly dynamic sound. The Onyx does most everything else better, it’s a smoother more natural sound.

So the answer is, overall, yes.

Kiseki Purple Heart is highly thought of cartridge among those in the know. Beyond my reach, or the capability of my phono stage.

I think more importantly than simply the value difference of going from $5000-$10,000 is the design and the brand. Speaking retail, I have a $3200 Kiseki Purple Heart and went to a $5500 Koetsu rosewood signature. I preferred the Kiseki. I haven’t experimented a lot but I suspect once you find a mfg that you like then climb their ladder.  I tried another $5000 cartridge, the Soundsmith Sussuro MkIi ES and I did not care for that or the support they provided. 

+1 Transfiguration Proteus rebuilt.

I cannot comment on $10K cartridges since I do not own one. I think the most expensive cartridge I have is an Ortofon Verismo at $6K. But I am a hobbyist of modest means, and to be frank, the cartridges I own are usually bought carefully from the pre-owned market and sent to a service company for refurbishment. I prefer Expert Stylus or Allclear, but in the past have used Andy Kim, Soundsmith, and VAS. It is my opinion that a good tech can fit a new diamond to the cantilever, clean it, and adjust the suspension to where the cartridge is performing optimally. In the past a suspension could harden up or get spongy and render a cartridge unusable, but modern materials appear to have eliminated that issue. If I was limited to new cartridges I would not buy anything over $2K. 

But what I have noticed is that cartridge and phono stage pairings offer more variability and synergy than almost anything else in hi fi. Yes we talk about speaker and room compatibility, and to a lesser extent amplifier and speaker pairings and how fundamentally different the sound is. Transducers is what is important! A cartridge is a transducer. 

This morning I moved my Verismo/Schroder pairing off a BMC MCCI Signature ULN phono stage onto a Musical Fidelity Nu Vinyl and gave it a listen. I did indeed have to use a set of Nuetrik XLR to RCA adapters, not ideal but the only practical way to do this. The sound is fundamentally different, to the point where you are listening to a different vinyl experience. Richer, more textured, and introspective is what I hear. It is difficult to say which I prefer because it is fundamentally different. There is as much variance at this step as there is in the cartridges we have available. 

I sometimes wonder if having multiples of analog stuff is really the best use of my hobby money. I feel that I could easily live with my Sota Cosmos Eclipse/Origin Live Agile/Transfiguration Proteus into an Esoteric E-03. I should buy another Proteus and have it rebuilt for back up and call it good. But then again, this is a hobby....

This is a wonderful discussion.  I love all the ideas and perspectives.  Like many of you, I have a lot of cartridges.  $50, $500, $3000, $5000, and $10,000 ones. My favorite ones are an Ortofon 2M SE Mono (the mono version of the Black), and a SoundSmith Hyperion MkII.  Why do I like the SE mono better than other mono mc ones costing 5-10x more?  I dunno.  Why do I like the Hyperion better than my Winfeld (previous favorite) or the Atlas.  I dunno.  These are not rational preferences.  But I know what I like.  And although I agree with Raul that our standard should be live music, it is not easy to do an A-B against live music is it?  So, what I use as a standard is DSD, which is measurably more accurate than any analog system.  I know this to be true.  Why do I like to listen to my records and my less perfect analog cartridges, arms, turntables, phonostages and so on better?  I dunno.  But I know what I like.

kudos to Raul! +1 - analog system performance relies on all pieces, thus there could be bigger setup problems than cartridge. 

Inna, buying expensive cartridge, with hope it will open analog experience horizon, is the same as buying Ferrari to use it as commuter for everyday shopping, work, etc.. Ferrari driving experience will be framed by road condition, traffic, fear of getting scratches etc. If you like to make you feel good and you have money to spend - go ahead and buy $10k+ cart! You will find nice looking magazines with pictures and reviews, you also will finance with your purchase! Buying Rolex will not deliver more accurate time info comparing to simpler watch! Analog sound magic start with musician’s creation, then it is amplified with recording studio work, and finally is pressed into vinyl. Vinyl press is never checked with ultra-expensive TTs+carts, most 80..90s vinyls were tested using Audio-Technica/Ortofon professional grade MMs. 

Show me some measurements (THD, channel separation, trackability) where the $10K cartridge outperforms the $5K. Otherwise subjective opinions are like looking out a window and discussing the weather.

Usually yes besides the cost but like with other equipment twice the price doesn’t mean it sounds twice as good or is a better value.  

Dartzeel sells a million dollar cartridge.

Work your way up to it ( the Swiss shall help you launder your dirty money).

So....

The short answer to the question - it depends but often yes.

Interesting discussion.

In the past year I was able to source two TOTL cartridges, a Transfiguration Proteus and a ZYX Ultimate Astro. They retailed at $6k and $13k respectively. I did it precisely to answer the question posed by the OP. While I can probably give a very quick and short answer to the question,  I would like to share more of my experience. In the end the answer for me is more nuanced.

I have been moving up the ZYX line for many years starting with an Airy 3 back in the 90’s. More recently it was going from the Ultimate 1000 ( $2k ) to Ultimate Omega ( $ 5k ). My experience with listening to any new addition to my system involves an immediate comparison mode. Breaking down what I hear into bass, midrange and high frequency, or tonal responses, or details…..etc, and figuring out the differences between the new and old. With the Ultimate 1000 and the Ultimate Omega, I did not hear the ‘next level’ improvement that my dealer claimed. Yes, the entire frequency range improved, soundstage a bit more solid, details were sharper…etc. But not something that exceeded my expectation. And from there started in my mind the exact same question posed by the OP… $5k to $10k, big difference?

Not able to source in the $10k range, I thought of getting something close. The now discontinued Transfiguration Proteus has been compared favorably to pre-Lambda Lyra Atlas among others. Eventually I got a Proteus rebuilt by Anna Mighty Sound. With the Proteus, the entire soundstage widened, details increased, and most significantly the dynamics jumped many notches. The sense of live music playing in front of me is palpable.

When a $10k cartridge finally arrive with the ZYX Ultimate Astro, the listening experience caught me by surprise. As soon as the stylus dropped, my first thought was, ‘ I get it’. My typical analytical / comparison prone brain just shut down. It was not a matter of just the bass being prodigious which it was. But it was the bass, the upper bass, the lower mid, …..etc, the entire spectrum was now a holistic continuum. That is what correct, proper music reproduction should sound like… l get it. 
The short answer to the OP’s question is ‘yes’. There is a gulf of a difference between cartridges in the two price range. But I have sourced my two top cartridges at 50% - 30% of retail. So if the question of ‘value’ comes into the equation, then I will say ‘no’. Given what I know now, I will not spend an extra $5k to get the top notch sound quality. 

There are plateaus based on price points. You can easily get mesmerized thinking that the more you spend the better your system will sound. Yes usually cartridges in the 5k range will have a different level of quality as opposed to cartridges in the 10k range. The same goes with cartridges in the 500 to 1k range and so on. Don’t be fooled thinking that spending more will yield better results. A 5k cartridge may perform significantly better than one priced at 10k simply because it’s a much better match for your system. The kind of music you enjoy, speakers, room acoustics and how the signal is processed all play into the game. Some spend years and thousands trying to find the perfect cartridge.

I am on the same page as @ghdprentice.

Absolutely there is a highly audible difference between even very good cartridges and ones that, performance-wise and price-wise, are a significant leap forward. This holds true for electronics, speakers and nearly every kind of audio component.

The only problem is, that unless someone has a system that operates at the same level as a 10k cartridge, they are unlikely to hear everything it does. I sometimes wonder about all the "snake oil" comments, and what type of system they are using to evaluate the "snake oil" component. All too often, they have $700 receivers which are not remotely high enough resolution for them to hear what the 10k cartridge is doing. I have almost never heard anyone with say, a 15k system, who doubts the audible differences in any type of component, whether a Shakti Stone, portable line conditioners, tonearms, cartridges, or power cables. The better the system, the more audible the changes, and the easier it is to hear those changes.

Some $10K cartridges are very very good.  Some other cartridges that can be had (used, usually) for under $1K are also very very good.  To the point where an experienced audiophile with an excellent system and good ears might prefer the latter to the former, since in the end it is a subjective judgement anyway. However, the analogy between an expensive cartridge and an expensive automobile engine is useless.

@jasonbourne71 No. An engine costs at least $1m. The cheaper ones are compromises for the poor.

Let’s assume an engine for a BMW automobile costs $10K to build. 

If you don’t have the turntable, arm, phono cables and phono-stage to support a high-end cartridge you might not hear much of a difference between $5k and $10k. A $10k cartridge might just as well expose the flaws of the system as anything if you don't have the supporting gear.

OTOH: if you have a maxed out analog front end, one can take good advantage of the higher end cartridges and get pretty big bang for the buck. In that case going from $5k to $10k can produce marvelous results. That’s how I feel about where I am with mine.

rossb, what table/arm/phono stage do you have ?

House sound is more important. This sounds right to me.

@rossb +1

In my experience it is a mistake to think of cartridges as being on a one-dimensional spectrum of good > better> great based on price.

Cartridges, like anything else in hifi, are multi-dimensional based not only on parts quality but on preferences, synergy, design skill and many other factors. You can always spend a lot of money to get something you ultimately hate; and conversely it is just as possible to find something cheaper that you love.

I have owned cartridges at all levels up to the $10k range and my favourites are all at the lower (but still relatively expensive) levels - around $3k. Many super expensive cartridges are designed to suit a particular preference, and if you don't like the house sound of the manufacturer you are unlikely to find their $10k cartridge any more to your taste than their $1k cartridge.

Despite owning many cartridges costing a lot more, the one I keep coming back to is a 20+ year old design, and even at its original price was far from the top level in cartridge pricing at the time. Also, it does not suit everyone, and that is fine. It suits my tastes and I will keep having it re-built when it wears out as it gets closest to what I am looking for in a cartridge than anything else I have heard, even at 2,3 or 4 times its price.

So, to answer the OP, the difference between a $5k and $10k cartridge is usually small, and it is just as possible to dislike a $10k cartridge as it is a cheaper cartridge. It is also just as possible to find that a less expensive cartridge that sounds exactly like what you are looking for.

Exactly. And phono stage should be two/three times more expensive than the cartridge, assuming the prices reflect the quality relatively accurately.

In other words, $10k cartridge is for a very high end front end and the entire system.

It is just easier for most people to upgrade the cartridge than other components of the turntable based front end, and in fact less expensive, except for tonearm cable.

Another question would be whether to spend the extra money on the cartridge, or to allot the funds upstream.to the arm or the table. If you have a table and arm that are at the very top level, then the funds put towards the cartridge would make sense. However, how many hobbyists have placed a $10K or above cartridge on an arm and/or table that is not up to the level of the cartridge?? Then we also have the phono cabling, little point in buying a $10K cartridge, or even a $5K one if your weak link is the phono cabling. ( and arm cabling).

@inagroove certainly you can hear the difference or you wouldn't be chasing that last 3%.  Sure, some members he couldn't hear it and they wouldn't chase it.

but I think you need to keep in mind, when someone with an already great system says "this made a huge difference", he is talkig about a huge percentage of that last big left for him to chase.  

And indeed there are lots of Audiogoners here that spend much more than $5k chasing the last little bit, and having a blast doing it.

Jerry