They sound too different, my man, to sound right. That's the point.
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Doesn’t it bother you people that speakers sound so different? We need hifi for people that sounds the same for everyone, everywhere, all the time!!!
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I have purchased about fifteen phono cartridges over the last dozen years, all new, in all price ranges. Among them are Benz (I once hoarded Glider SL's when they appeared scarce), Ortofon, Soundsmith, Van den Hul, and Lyra. My profile shows my two tables-both with Reed 3P's. Phono stage is a Manley Steelhead. My humble two cents is that like most of audio, beyond the sweet spot the incremental improvement is very subtle. To get to the sweet spot though you must have optimum set-up. I have already hinted at this, but to my ears in my system and thus highly individual, I love the Benz Glider SL as being a champion at the pricepoint and YET, all four of my Gliders are in long-term reserve and my Ven den Hul Crimson Strad XGW and Lyra Etna are my current daily drivers. In very general terms, as you go up the scale in a given producer's line-up you get a little more micro detail/resolution and a little more micro-dynamics. Soundstage width and imaging tend go up as well. All that said, you can easily fall into the pit of getting too hi-fi and not any happier. For example, on some recordings the Lyra Etna on my 10.5 Reed 3P can border on analytical and ever-so-slightly cold. I can then take that very same LP and place it on my other deck with a 12" Reed 3P and the Van den Hul and the "porridge is just right" with the tone and warmth restored that was lacking with the Lyra. The Lyra Etna is always faster in every respect-transients, dynamics, overall presentation. Besides my beloved Benz Gliders which simply check the boxes in every category at a very reasonable price, my other go-to sweet spot for the money is the Ortofon Cadenza Bronze. I am of the highly individual subjective opinion that both the Benz Glider SL and Ortofon Cadenza Bronze, properly set-up, provide 95% of what is attainable at 20% (or less) of the top-tier pricing. No one on this Board is more knowledgeable and reliable on this subject (again, IMHO) than Mulveling. Listen to his advice and not mine. But one thing that I do think I know is that as you go up the hierarchy you are more likely to be losing out on all that is achievable without expert set-up. I can set up and get most of what is possible with the Benz Glider or Cadenza Bronze on my own using just the SmartTractor alignment tool and a Fozgometer, but for the Ven den Hul and Lyra, I received good return on the investment by having Brian Walsh do my set-up. |
In my post, I didn’t mention Lexus worked with Yamaha’s audio division to perfect the LFA’s 9000 RPM scream. I have experienced a couple of random LFA sightings and it sounds like a Formula 1 engine with the intensity knob turned down. https://blog.son-video.com/en/2024/11/lexus-lfa-x-yamaha-the-roar-of-an-angel/#:~:text=The%20Lexus%20LFA%20supercar%20is,designed%20in%20collaboration%20with%20Yamaha. |
Exotic $$$ cars & $$$ cartridges=terrible comparison. Is a Bugatti Veyron/Lamgborghi Veneno/La Ferrari ,REALLY "better" than a ...Lexus LFA? https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5gmkykQOEIE
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@westcoastaudiophile Your comment just cracks me up. Thanks for making me laugh. Joe |
Greetings, Sorry for be late to this posting, I want to make sure I had proper information on this subject. I can’t tell you the difference between a $5k and a $10k cartridge, but I can tell you the differences between a $5k and a $16k cartridge. (Retail price) It’s like the difference between driving a Lexus and a Bugatti. A Lexus will get you from point A to B in comfort, it’s fairly dependable, and looks good. A Bugatti is exhilarating. Joe Nies |
@dogberry Of course you are right. My 10% statement was just meant as a general guideline for someone new to the hobby. |
Surely whichever component (including cables) is the least transparent is the rate-limiting factor? And since improving on any bottleneck component makes everything downstream from it sound better, removing bottlenecks closest to the source have the greatest potential gains? That's what baffles me about "rules" like the "10% rule" quoted above. |
Yes, but you need a considerable investment in playback equipment to realize the ∆. |
The big question is can you enjoy your $10K cartridge more than I enjoy my $2K cartridge? I ask because I have never enjoyed a system more than my $100 Sears Silvertone suitcase stereo when I was in college. It must have had a steel stylus. Smoke a joint and listen to Stravinsky's Firebird with my girlfriend next to me in bed. I will never have that musical enjoyment again, but I do still get deeply into music sometimes. And when I'm in that musical mood, $!K cartridge, $2K, $50K, it wouldn't matter. Just give my porous brain the music. |
@dwette +1 Thanks! |
Yes but you have to be careful. Many cartridge manufacturers have a bit of "house sound" so do your research. The comment about very cheap cables in recording studios is doubtful, but even if true is meaningless. It is about getting the most from the software. Same with statements about AC to your outlets. |
@inna some fb to OP: discussing sound quality, using only price of cartridge, is pointless.. there are many $400 cart (80s price) outperforming $2k+ current offers. the biggest task of building perfect analog system is to match cart/tonearm/phono-pre/pre/amp/speakers/room to give you what you want! |
@atmasphere they also play test pressings in the record plant during the manufacturing cycle. I’ve been on tours of the AS/AP/QRP facility in Salina. They have a small room next the one where all the presses are located. I’ve observed a plant engineer take a record off the press and go into that room to play it. I was told they do that periodically for quality assurance. They might not sit there with a stopwatch playing the whole thing (I don’t know), but they at least do spot checks. I can’t speak to other plants but that’s what they do at QRP. I’ll bet it’s the same at RTI, Optimal, Pallas, etc. |
@westcoastaudiophile So was I. In the pressing plant they don't play LPs back. Instead, they send something called a 'test pressing' back to the producer; he has to sign off on it before the plant does the pressing run. He will be listening for weird ticks, distortion caused by over-cut, that sort of thing. Quite often the mastering engineer might take on this function although it depends on the production. If the mastering engineer did their job properly as I outlined earlier, then the only variable will be if the plant introduced tick somewhere. Usually they don't. An addition test press usually goes to the artist who listens on whatever they have. Right there might be your concern but again the main thing is to make sure the LP is playable. |
"some recording studios use $5 per mile cables to make recordings” - not really, helped Sony Studios Toronto to find some interconnect issues, they have the best professional grade cables / connectors / mixers / amps / speakers / audio-processing EQ you can imagine! remember, there are only few actual cable and connectors manufacturers (OEMs), unless DIY, users typically employ cable-shop products.. |
@inna In the recording studio they don't. That is because the equipment in the studio is balanced and supports AES48, the balanced line standard, and all the connections are low impedance. That practice swamps noise and sonic artifacts of the cable caused by materials and the geometry of the cable.
@westcoastaudiophile Any LP mastering operation uses a cartridge for playback, but usually its nothing expensive. We used a Grado Gold in our operation. The reason isn't to winnow out the last detail, rather is so the engineer can test to see if the cut he made is track-able by a 'normal' pickup. Things like out-of-phase bass can knock the stylus out of the groove, grooves can be 'overcut', interfering with the groove next to it and so on. That's all about making the cut playable. Sound quality otherwise has nothing to do with that and everything to do with how carefully the cutting stylus is set up, how much care is put into the cut (whether short cuts like compression are used) and the quality of the recording itself. |
This is an "Oh Good Lord" type question. I can't imagine spending close to that much on a cartridge for vinyl. But this is a hobby and some just like what they like and believe what they want to believe. I would hope there was a meaningful difference in quality for twice the money, and at that level, particularly. But I am cynical.
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No, but that may come to pass, based on my experience with how very good the Boulder 1108 phono-stage is. I have a Naim Audio NAC 252/Supercap DR preamp + Naim NAP 300 DR power amp, with Dynaudio Confidence C2 Platinum speakers and a pair of REL S/510 subs. I was using a Naim Superline + Supercap DR phono-stage, but after adding a 2nd tonearm I needed something with dual phono inputs, but I wanted something that is not a downgrade from the Naim phono-stage. The Boulder ticked all the boxes. If I ever decide to move on from my Naim 252/300 I have (which is quite excellent) I would first audition a Boulder 1110/1161 series for pre/amp, based on how good the phono-stage is. My digital front end is a Naim NDX2/XPS-DR. I won’t make any changes there, for the simple reason I just don’t play digital that much in my main system as I do analog. |
In general, ones entire collection sounds better with better sounding cartridges. As I moved from $100, to $1K, to $3K to $7K they also seemed to track in a different location and my 1960's and '70s albums nearly sounded new. I am assuming they track much deeper. I have only heard $12K cartridges and did not know the albums history, so can't comment on those. |
Well, some recording studios use $5 per mile cables to make recordings. This doesn't mean that your audiophile cables don't make them sound better than similar $5 per mile cables. They do. Better equipment makes everything sound better, regardless of the quality of the recordings. The degree will vary. |
@rvpiano +1 "What type of LP would be up to the task of producing such high quality sound?" Vinyl records produced/tested with “professional” grade carts, with focus on sound accuracy. |
+1 @atmasphere |
That's not at all how I personally describe my Lyras. The HF is very smooth and silky. It sounds beautiful with every kind of music I have played with it. It's a somewhat similar sound of the better Dynavectors, IMO (I have a XV-1s). I also have an older Clearaudio Concerto V2. That's a cartridge I feel has tipped up HF, with a midrange that's too anemic and analytical for my taste. I especially don't care for it playing classical music. |
