Curious what cartridges you have heard? Also can depend on the arm and how it matches together. For me the answer is a BIG yes. 

I have never heard such expensive cartridges. It's for $50k analogue front end, I don't operate in that territory.

I am simply interested in others' impressions.

$5000 difference is pretty dramatic to me.  🤣

Absolutely. The best cartridges I have heard are the over $10K and the sound quality jumped a lot. One being the Esturo Gold and top of the line Grado... are the ones I remember. I’m probably going to buy an Esturo when I am able.

I never went from a $5K to a $10 cartridge but I did go from a $5650 Dynavector XV-1s to a $12,995 Lyra Atlas Lambda SL (both have since gone up in price). As great as the XV-1s is, there's no contest. The Lyra spanks it in every category, and then some. But you also need to have the turntable, arm, and phono stage to take advantage of the improvements. I also have the Atlas Lambda Mono on my second tonearm.

Well, you need a $30k phono stage, $30k table and $15k tonearm for that Etsuro to make full sense, I suppose.

Is there usually a dramatic difference between $5k and $10k cartridges ?

Yes, the cost.

They will inevitably have different materials and design choices that ensure a different sound. Which one you like better may not be correlated to the higher price. If you’re talking about upgrading within one brand line then it’s a safer bet that the higher cost one might sound “better”, but even that’s not a 100% guarantee.

But most 5k and 10k carts will in fact sound pretty great overall; it will be hard to find a dud. At the very top tier prices the manufacturer can take extra special care selecting only the very best coils / motors - I think that’s what Koetsu did with the Blue Lace model, and it does sound better than other stone models to me.

It costs at least $10,000 retail to make a cartridge. Just as it costs at least $200,000 for an automobile. Anything less expensive is merely compromise for the poor.

Just like most things in HEA, at a certain point doubling the price will likely yield a 10% improvement in sound, but if you can afford it, why not?

At that level there is generally not a dramatic diffeence between any 2 components  You're chasing the last few percent.  that is not a bad thing.

Now people will get very excited when they make progress.  Lets do the math with some made up numbers to illustrate:  you're at 97%.  You find a component that moves you to 98%.  It is only 1% improvement but it got you 33% of the remaining and it is a big deal to you. 

Jerry

@noromance : $10K to make an excellent phono cartridge? Really? Let’s assume an engine for a BMW automobile costs $10K to build. I can understand that. Plenty of parts that must be machined to tight tolerances and then skillfully assembled by a team of workers. A phono cartridge is a small device that weighs several grams. I fail to see where there is $10K worth of parts and labor.

Are you using a SUT?

If so which one. I think a $5,000 cart with a great SUT would be better than a $10,000 without a SUT. 

@martinl07d : The $16K Grado Epoch is a moving iron cartridge so no SUT needed.

Jason was kinda focused on dwette post. 
absolutely no SUT needed on MI 

@dwette Your comment is interesting; You have both stereo and mono high end. I am agonizing on upgrading my stereo cart OR add a similar value mono one. I have a lot of mono old rock an some jazz and vocals in mono. Would you upgrade from 5k to 10k stereo, or add a Miyajima Infinity cartridge (and second arm, etc.)? Thanks

Dear @inna  : First than all you need to own not only a first rate tonearm and phonolinepreamp but a true high room/system  resolution and you need to be a experienced listener of live MUSIC and that your room/system try to even that live MUSIC main characteristics..

Even than not always a 10K cartridge overall beats a 5K cartridge.

However the @dwette  expereience is a good one thatI experienced and yes the Atlas outperform the really goodXV 1s.

The other example with the Etsuro Gold is not exactly a superior one to say Umami Blue.

There are cartridges that are more consistent in that $ superiority as are the Lyra and Ortofon but severall $$$$ are overrated only because its high $$$$.

@carlsbad2  I think that almost no one , at least I can´t , can really be aware of a 5% difference in quality of two diferent cartridges about its quality level not say the 1% of your example.

Btw, I own vintage ridiculous prices that outperform 5K to 10K cartridges by a wide margin.

The OP question is not an easy one to answer with a " yes or no " because is surrounded of all the room/system links but even " everything the same " is a little complex to give a true clear winner.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,

R.

+1, Raul.

@luis223344 I have a lot of jazz/classical/rock mono records (hundreds). It was worth it to me to get another tonearm and a mono cartridge. Playing mono records with a true mono cartridge is so much better than playing them with a stereo cartridge and engaging a mono button. There’s better signal to noise ratio since the mono cartridge is insensitive to the vertical grooves that have no musical information (just adding noise otherwise).

Now whether or not it’s better for you to get a mono cartridge, or to upgrade from a $5k to $10k cartridge isn’t something I can answer, and I don’t know anything about the Miyajima Infinity cartridge

OP seems like a lot of $$$ to get a 2nd cartridge (mono) and another tonearm and possibly a tonearm cable for how many mono LPs? 🤔

If most of your listening is with stereo LPs then my choice would be to upgrade the stereo cartridge. But it's your system and choice. Do keep us updated. Enjoy your journey either way it will be fun.

Yes, Raul, I don't expect a simple answer, I am interested in discussion.

Perhaps it would be better in most cases to first seriously upgrade tonearm before even thinking about $10k plus cartridges. Not to mention table and phono stage.

mulveling, that's what I assumed. No guarantee, let alone "dramatic difference".

For some of us $5k difference is nothing but for many it is a lot.

Personally, I would not play this MC game and would seek out best vintage MM cartridges. But that's me.

Thank you @dwette that is the answer I was looking for. No speculation on my setup but confirming that the different/better experience with quality mono cart with my type of music. I will buy the Miyajima, or other good mono cart, then try it on my existing system. If that works, then add second quality tonearm. Expensive but fun hobby...It is great to find some that actually have made greater investments and sharing their experience. 

@luis223344 What’s nice about my setup is I have the exact mono counterpart to my stereo cartridge (Lyra Atlas: SL + Mono), both on identical tonearms on the same turntable. Both also run through the same phono-stage.

I’ve been able to really see what a true mono cartridge brings to the table, i.e. comparing Atlas SL with mono button engaged vs the Atlas Mono. Some mono records almost sound stereo with the depth of soundstage the mono cartridge adds, and they play so quiet since the mono cartridge ignores the noise of the vertical grooves.

I think it’s worth it if you have a collection of mono records you play often enough.

Many thanks @dwette I have been asking this question a few times on blogs, and you are the first one to have the perfect setup for proper A/B testing. Maybe I should not thank you as you sent me down the expensive rabbit whole... 

It's my pleasure to show you how to make wallets defy gravity and levitate. 

But yeah, a true mono cartridge really brings new life to mono records. It was a revelation for me how good it is.

mulveling, that’s what I assumed. No guarantee, let alone "dramatic difference".

@inna Well, it can actually be quite a significant difference, but most of it is usually "personality" rather than a difference of "quality" level. Moving coils each have a distinct sonic fingerprint caused by choices made on magnet, pole pieces, coils, wire, overall design - cantilever and stylus too!

A Van den Hul Colibri sounds worlds apart from a Koetsu. Both have their fans. There is only a small number of MC motor designs; many still use the classic magnet-yoke system which goes back to Ortofon’s SPU of the 1950s. Ortofon has used a very different motor design in high-end models since its Jubilee MC (coils mounted INSIDE the magnet in very compact form - look at MC100 or MC200 too). Clearaudios are using something different again (coils like a dumbbell with pivot in middle). Colibri is "monopole", no front yoke pole piece, which is why the motor sticks out so much (and probably contributes to its sibilance too). With the classic yoke designs, you get a classic warm "vintage" sound with "softer" magnets like alnico. Or you can "harden" it up and push it towards more modern hifi sound with neodymium. Samarium cobals sounds close to neodymium. Platinum magnets sound somewhat between the two extremes, but Koetsu bought them all up. Oh and Lyra uses a variant of the yoke, with non-magnetic pieces but an extra magnet mounted in front! I find this all fascinating.

mulveling, this sounds almost like rocket science to me.

If they sound "worlds apart" then is it possible that none of them sounds right ? Or it is more like fine musical instruments that are different but both sound right ?

If they sound "worlds apart" then is it possible that none of them sounds right ? Or it is more like fine musical instruments that are different but both sound right ?

Yes, that is correct - cartridges are not a great pursuit for those seeking an "ultimate truth" (whatever that is). I prefer to think of them as performance artists :) 

That's a good approach, I think, because any other one will drive you crazy.

I am also on the hunt for a new, better cartridge, and I expect to pay 2x or 3x more than the cost of my current cart.  With that being said, I will only buy a cart that provides significant improvement. 

@carlsbad2 

When you state "It is only 1% improvement but it got you 33% of the remaining and it is a big deal to you.", I can agree that the logic (math) is correct, but I find the premise is wrong.  

When a system improves from 97% to 98% , in your example, it is assumed that the SQ improvement will be audible and valuable .  As many have noted in other strings, slight variations/improvements are hard to notice/remember even after a few days of listening.  I expect most AGs will not spend an extra $5K (double) for a 1% improvement.  

This is not meant to be argumentative, just objective.  There are always new-folks looking for reliable, realistic insight and advice...

Anyone ever buy demo/used cartridges? Thoughts? Experiences?

Anyone ever buy demo/used cartridges? Thoughts? Experiences?

I've bought plenty both new and used. Best is buying used from hobbyist audiophiles with stellar feedback who cleans their gear compusively (i.e. check the cart picks for a "dust beard", look for a clean stylus pic). Many of us also have large cartidge rotations, so no one cart gets too many hours. Never had any issues with cartridges bought selectively this way. Dealer demos can be OK-ish, but are usually not kept nearly as clean as the best hobbyists. And if you're buying from a gear flipper whose expertise caps out at fuzzy iPhone pics, good luck. 

But if the seller is at all honest, and their feedback is to be trusted, they should be able to accurately describe the cartridge's condition, age, and performance. I've actually had a much higher rate of various issues with used (active) electronic components.

@inagroove certainly you can hear the difference or you wouldn't be chasing that last 3%.  Sure, some members he couldn't hear it and they wouldn't chase it.

but I think you need to keep in mind, when someone with an already great system says "this made a huge difference", he is talkig about a huge percentage of that last big left for him to chase.  

And indeed there are lots of Audiogoners here that spend much more than $5k chasing the last little bit, and having a blast doing it.

Jerry

Another question would be whether to spend the extra money on the cartridge, or to allot the funds upstream.to the arm or the table. If you have a table and arm that are at the very top level, then the funds put towards the cartridge would make sense. However, how many hobbyists have placed a $10K or above cartridge on an arm and/or table that is not up to the level of the cartridge?? Then we also have the phono cabling, little point in buying a $10K cartridge, or even a $5K one if your weak link is the phono cabling. ( and arm cabling).

Exactly. And phono stage should be two/three times more expensive than the cartridge, assuming the prices reflect the quality relatively accurately.

In other words, $10k cartridge is for a very high end front end and the entire system.

It is just easier for most people to upgrade the cartridge than other components of the turntable based front end, and in fact less expensive, except for tonearm cable.

In my experience it is a mistake to think of cartridges as being on a one-dimensional spectrum of good > better> great based on price.

Cartridges, like anything else in hifi, are multi-dimensional based not only on parts quality but on preferences, synergy, design skill and many other factors. You can always spend a lot of money to get something you ultimately hate; and conversely it is just as possible to find something cheaper that you love.

I have owned cartridges at all levels up to the $10k range and my favourites are all at the lower (but still relatively expensive) levels - around $3k. Many super expensive cartridges are designed to suit a particular preference, and if you don't like the house sound of the manufacturer you are unlikely to find their $10k cartridge any more to your taste than their $1k cartridge.

Despite owning many cartridges costing a lot more, the one I keep coming back to is a 20+ year old design, and even at its original price was far from the top level in cartridge pricing at the time. Also, it does not suit everyone, and that is fine. It suits my tastes and I will keep having it re-built when it wears out as it gets closest to what I am looking for in a cartridge than anything else I have heard, even at 2,3 or 4 times its price.

So, to answer the OP, the difference between a $5k and $10k cartridge is usually small, and it is just as possible to dislike a $10k cartridge as it is a cheaper cartridge. It is also just as possible to find that a less expensive cartridge that sounds exactly like what you are looking for.

@rossb +1

rossb, what table/arm/phono stage do you have ?

House sound is more important. This sounds right to me.

If you don’t have the turntable, arm, phono cables and phono-stage to support a high-end cartridge you might not hear much of a difference between $5k and $10k. A $10k cartridge might just as well expose the flaws of the system as anything if you don't have the supporting gear.

OTOH: if you have a maxed out analog front end, one can take good advantage of the higher end cartridges and get pretty big bang for the buck. In that case going from $5k to $10k can produce marvelous results. That’s how I feel about where I am with mine.

@jasonbourne71 No. An engine costs at least $1m. The cheaper ones are compromises for the poor.

Let’s assume an engine for a BMW automobile costs $10K to build. 

Some $10K cartridges are very very good.  Some other cartridges that can be had (used, usually) for under $1K are also very very good.  To the point where an experienced audiophile with an excellent system and good ears might prefer the latter to the former, since in the end it is a subjective judgement anyway. However, the analogy between an expensive cartridge and an expensive automobile engine is useless.

I am on the same page as @ghdprentice.

Absolutely there is a highly audible difference between even very good cartridges and ones that, performance-wise and price-wise, are a significant leap forward. This holds true for electronics, speakers and nearly every kind of audio component.

The only problem is, that unless someone has a system that operates at the same level as a 10k cartridge, they are unlikely to hear everything it does. I sometimes wonder about all the "snake oil" comments, and what type of system they are using to evaluate the "snake oil" component. All too often, they have $700 receivers which are not remotely high enough resolution for them to hear what the 10k cartridge is doing. I have almost never heard anyone with say, a 15k system, who doubts the audible differences in any type of component, whether a Shakti Stone, portable line conditioners, tonearms, cartridges, or power cables. The better the system, the more audible the changes, and the easier it is to hear those changes.

There are plateaus based on price points. You can easily get mesmerized thinking that the more you spend the better your system will sound. Yes usually cartridges in the 5k range will have a different level of quality as opposed to cartridges in the 10k range. The same goes with cartridges in the 500 to 1k range and so on. Don’t be fooled thinking that spending more will yield better results. A 5k cartridge may perform significantly better than one priced at 10k simply because it’s a much better match for your system. The kind of music you enjoy, speakers, room acoustics and how the signal is processed all play into the game. Some spend years and thousands trying to find the perfect cartridge.

In the past year I was able to source two TOTL cartridges, a Transfiguration Proteus and a ZYX Ultimate Astro. They retailed at $6k and $13k respectively. I did it precisely to answer the question posed by the OP. While I can probably give a very quick and short answer to the question,  I would like to share more of my experience. In the end the answer for me is more nuanced.

I have been moving up the ZYX line for many years starting with an Airy 3 back in the 90’s. More recently it was going from the Ultimate 1000 ( $2k ) to Ultimate Omega ( $ 5k ). My experience with listening to any new addition to my system involves an immediate comparison mode. Breaking down what I hear into bass, midrange and high frequency, or tonal responses, or details…..etc, and figuring out the differences between the new and old. With the Ultimate 1000 and the Ultimate Omega, I did not hear the ‘next level’ improvement that my dealer claimed. Yes, the entire frequency range improved, soundstage a bit more solid, details were sharper…etc. But not something that exceeded my expectation. And from there started in my mind the exact same question posed by the OP… $5k to $10k, big difference?

Not able to source in the $10k range, I thought of getting something close. The now discontinued Transfiguration Proteus has been compared favorably to pre-Lambda Lyra Atlas among others. Eventually I got a Proteus rebuilt by Anna Mighty Sound. With the Proteus, the entire soundstage widened, details increased, and most significantly the dynamics jumped many notches. The sense of live music playing in front of me is palpable.

When a $10k cartridge finally arrive with the ZYX Ultimate Astro, the listening experience caught me by surprise. As soon as the stylus dropped, my first thought was, ‘ I get it’. My typical analytical / comparison prone brain just shut down. It was not a matter of just the bass being prodigious which it was. But it was the bass, the upper bass, the lower mid, …..etc, the entire spectrum was now a holistic continuum. That is what correct, proper music reproduction should sound like… l get it. 
The short answer to the OP’s question is ‘yes’. There is a gulf of a difference between cartridges in the two price range. But I have sourced my two top cartridges at 50% - 30% of retail. So if the question of ‘value’ comes into the equation, then I will say ‘no’. Given what I know now, I will not spend an extra $5k to get the top notch sound quality. 

So....

The short answer to the question - it depends but often yes.

Interesting discussion.

Dartzeel sells a million dollar cartridge.

Work your way up to it ( the Swiss shall help you launder your dirty money).