Yes curious minds would like to know. It was a very informative thread with good info.
I Don't Understand What Determines When A Thread Gets The Axe
I've only been a member of Audiogon since 2016 or 2017, so maybe some "old timers" could fill me in. I don't understand how threads covering "beaten like a dead horse" topics, for example, oh off the top of my head, "Cable Deniers", can carry on for days or weeks, have pages and pages of posts from Members that frankly get quite ugly with name calling and basically Grade School playground behavior...yet the Moderators never say a word or never step in with the, "This Discussion Is Closed" Czar-like ruling.
However, when a Member like, say @verdantaudio, tries to warn us about Fraudulent Retail Websites AND has proof that these sites are ripping people off, along with proof from other Audiogon Members who provide examples of these sites conducting fraudulent business activities, the Discussion is shut down and closed. WHO decided to close the discussion? The original poster? Audiogon? How do you find out? Better yet, WHY was a topic as important as Fraud shut down after only 30 posts, some with extremely valuable information such as one member who had done a Whois.com research showing extremely sketchy information and another Member who had information about the state of Kansas Fraud Unit investigating one of the companies.
Is it because a Forum Member kept complaining about the post? Do the businesses in question advertise on Audiogon? I'm very curious who makes the decisions on which discussions get shut down and which discussions are allowed to drone on and on with behavior and comments that people would NEVER have the guts to say to one another face to face. I've truly wondered this ever since I joined this fantastic audio community -- a place where I've learned more in 7 years than I had learned in the previous 35 years!
I must say I wasn't at all surprised when I saw the discussion had been closed. After all, a Member had made this cryptic post -- "My guess is this thread won't last." Let's see how long this one does (before it gets zapped, I'd sure like to know the outcome of the Kansas fraud unit that is investigating the company).
Slow down and enjoy the music...
71 responses Add your response
It was almost certainly the moderators. If you truly want to find out, you can use the Contact Us link at the bottom of the page and inquire.
That doesn't seem cryptic to me at all. Notwithstanding your "czar" comment, the moderators here seem even-handed and consistent to me. That's why I knew the thread was doomed. | |||||||||||||||
I must have missed this Verdant thread. Hmm, Verdant is a dealer himself. Was it a case of disguised mud slinging on competitors so he could improve his sales?..."Him bad...Him fraud...Verdant very very good...Verdant very honest, Buy from Verdant, don’t buy from Him, etc, etc?", And you, OP, why did you have to mention Verdant on this thread? Now, hmmm, this creates some additional suspicion on the motive behind this thread. The Kansas thread...i recall that it was also looking like someone was trying to accuse a different dealer who had nothing to do with the crook.. Anyways...I dream of a utopia one day when everything in hifi is manufacturer direct with no 50 to 70% dealer markups,...a beautiful utopia with no greedy overgrown "passionate" dealers.
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@cleeds I’m pretty sure that
..will get ignored. Moderators I’m sure using algorithm to define threads to be removed without any human intervention. The whole site pretty much is designed by amateur crew for cheap and that’s what you get to use and live with that pretty much. | |||||||||||||||
@deep_333 I had a thread where I highlighted two URLs that were obvious fraud. These are not established sites or anyone I have beef with. I am not reposting as to not get this thread killed. They have a lot of products listed that they don't have access too (I distribute or manufacture several of the lines) and others chimed in that they aren't selling to them either. This is despite the fact that they have these products listed as available and at prices that are well below my cost as the importer and manufacturer. The sites were hastily thrown together. Poorly formatted and nothing about them seems even vaguely legitimate. Additionally, I had a customer who literally experienced having his CC # stolen from one of them. This is what was taken down.
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That’s not how it works here at all, @czarivey. When you submit through the Contact Us link (it’s at the bottom of every page) you’ll get an almost immediate e-mail autoreply and ticket number. That will be followed by a personal email (not a chatbot) and followup. The "intervention" is human and very much thoughtful. A few days or so after your question or issue is resolved, you’ll get an automated survey form about your experience. It’s fair to complain where warranted, but let’s give credit where credit is due to the people who run Audiogon. | |||||||||||||||
@cleeds I submitted several of those forms prior and no response on any and no survey either. Maybe certain inquiries get attention and certain don't so go figure. | |||||||||||||||
Audiogon strives to maintain a forum that is informative, focused, and dynamic. In order to maintain a cohesive and vital database, we moderate the in a number of ways.
Why A Forum Discussion May Be Removed
Why a Forum Post May Be Removed
We discourage rude or condescending behavior, but at the same time, we encourage active cooperation and passionate disagreement about audio-related issues, which can sometimes be a fine line. If your Forum Post or Discussion was removed, it is because a user flagged it for breaking our community rules and a Support Agent reviewed the report and agreed. We also will send an email alerting you with a list of reasons why it was removed. | |||||||||||||||
...and even whatever mentioned in the guidelines not enough and can be removed for reason or no reason and the best remedy is just to deal with that or try to re-introduce post. As I noted before some of the moderations going automoderated and certain few getting reviewed by Support Agent. One way or the other there’s still large probability of post being removed for good reasons that can flag the algorithm and get blocked or removed for just software misdesign and mishap. AAnd Yes, if your post was removed by automoderation, you will get that message shown above by Audiogon Associate.
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A thread walks into a bar. Bartender looks up and sneers: "We don't serve threads in these parts, now git!" The thread walks out and into the alley, messes up it's hair, goes back in. "Hey!" says the bartender without even blinking, "aren't you that thread I just threw out?" "No, I'm a frayed knot!" | |||||||||||||||
First I have a question. Was this thread completely removed and not just closed? I read the original thread and noted that it was closed but is it now removed completely? I can't find it. If so then this is really wierd. I did a search for threads with the word "fraud" and found dozens that are still available. Many were fraud warnings not unlike what @verdantaudio posted. If I understand the Moderator correctly, someone had to flag the thread. Could the scammers have found the thread, flagged it, and had it removed? If it wasn't one of the scammers, then would the person who flagged the thread come forward and let us know why they flagged it? I saw absolutely nothing wrong or objectionable with the @verdantaudio post or his responses to questions and challenges from other members. He provided solid evidence for his claim and answered each challenge calmly and respectfully. I, for one, greatly appreciate him posting this information and I am baffled why the thread was removed - especially when many other threads warning of fraud have been spared. I really wish the Moderator would let us know what specifically happened in this case. I have a bad feeling about this...... | |||||||||||||||
@yowser, @audiogon I once got post removed literally containing "Bad Music Matters!" slogan LOL. Looks like "Don't even THINK about even indirect referral to..." | |||||||||||||||
I just came across this thread while looking at "Top Discussions" in my Daily Recap email from this site. Oddly enough, I was watching this guy’s videos about fuses a couple days ago and subscribed to him on youtube. Last night I was watching some other of his videos and came across this.
Out of curiosity: Is this what all the fuss is all about? | |||||||||||||||
@deep_333 -- Sorry, but no tin foil conspiracy or massive sales collusion with kickbacks going on between myself and Verdant Audio. The REASON I tagged him was to make it easy for anyone wanting to see the thread and the comments that I mentioned in my post. At the time of my post (February 7th at 12:40 a.m.), you could still read the post @verdantaudio had made along with the 30 replies -- the post had not been deleted, the conversation had just been shut down. I have not tried to find the post as of this writing...so I don’t know if it has been deleted or not. Too answer your question -- no, the post wasn’t a situation of "him bad, me good". It was Verdant alerting us that two online "sellers" were listing products that they were not authorized to sell, and the advertising they were using online had been simply "cut and pasted" from Verdant’s website. I went to the websites of the two companies mentioned, and under their "Products" for sale menu, Verdant speakers aren’t even listed. However, if you do a Google search of the company name and Verdant, lo and behold links appear with product information, specs, and a fantastic "too good to be true" price and you can "purchase" the product with the click of a button. From replies in the comments section, bad things happen from that point forward. Hopefully that clears that up for you.
@cleeds -- I believe you have been on this Forum longer than I have, so I’ll take your word about the "even handed" Moderator actions. In my eyes, there just seems to be a lot of discussions shut down, deleted, etc., over the last 5 years and for the life of me, I couldn’t figure out why. I have actually asked the question, but never got an answer. Now do I spend hours on this site, searching for threads that have been deleted, and questioning the reason for every one?? Of course not. But I’m fairly certain that I’ve inquired 3 or 4 times ever since I became a Member -- especially during the Lockdown time frame. That was a stretch where I was seeing LONGTIME Members getting banned and having threads shut down right and left. A coorelation between "cabin fever" and short fuses? Absolutely.
@yogiboy -- "Thank you for your time. I hope you have a great day." (As he’s walking away, Columbo suddenly stops, turns and cocks his head to the side). "By the way, just one more thing..."
@erik_squires -- Sir, this is to inform you that you now owe me a brand new computer monitor. When I read your "I’m a frayed knot" punchline, I did an epic "spit take" and soaked my monitor in Guiness Stout. Since we are fellow music lovers, I’m not going to charge you for the cost of the Guiness...unless you leave me no alternative.
@8th-note -- My thoughts exactly. I was trying to find the original post by Verdant to back up what I said to @deep_333 above, but could not find it either. It does appear that it has gone from "Discussion Closed" to "Discussion Deleted", which is utterly ridiculous. There was absolutely NOTHING in his post that violated anything listed in the post from the Admin. Nothing. This reeks of shady.
@veerossi -- "Is this what the fuss is about?" Not in the least bit. Unfortunately, it appears that the Admin at Audigon has now deleted the post instead of just stopping the discussion, so you can't read it. I’m kicking myself for not doing a screen shot of the post, because I knew the Mod’s would delete it. I don’t know if he saved a copy, but, if you read the post above by @verdantaudio you can get a sense of the "Red Flag" warning -- and the original post also had replies from other Members with highlighted examples that raised the caution flags even higher up the flag pole.
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Oh, Erik.....’fraid not’...... Vaca Time.... Been over shinking thit again....😏 The one DELETED that seemed odd (esp. in it’s amazingly short LT) was from one who stated he wanted to ’give something away, no strings’.... Disappeared faster than a 5th of ’high Q’ Scotch left unattended... ;) Happened before my very screen time at the time... (Not involved...just astounded....a Russ in a 'hide' greeting a Uk drone could relate... for about tha....*pop*) | |||||||||||||||
@larry5729 -- I agree with you that Dealers should disclose that information when posting on this site either in their Username or at the end of each comment (their actual name, company name, address, etc.).
If you had seen this post before it was deleted, the Members who gave valuable information about these "Red Flag" online companies did just what you asked. The original poster's username discloses he is with Verdant Audio, and a member who gave another detailed example of the unauthorized marketing and representation gave his complete name, company name, address, phone number, AND a list of the products represented.
EVERYTHING about the post appeared above board and as far as I could see, was intended as a public service to Members of Audiogon to hopefully keep a Member from losing thousands of dollars to a fraudulent foreign online entity. Why the post would be shut down and deleted is freaking mind boggling to me, although there was one Member who repeatedly voiced objections to the post...even when every complaint was met with a response providing evidence that shot down the objection. And the original poster wasn't the only one providing evidence. As mentioned in the replies above, the shut down and deletion is eyebrow raising and makes one question the so called "Forum Discussion Rules". I'm just glad I'm not the only Member who is puzzled. | |||||||||||||||
If you use the Contact Us link that is at the bottom of each page, you'll quickly receive an automated reply with a ticket number followed by a personal email from the moderator and, eventually, an automated user feedback form. That's at least three contacts for each inquiry. Something's wrong if that wasn't your result, e.g. the messages went to your spam folder, or perhaps you've confused A'gon with another audio site. I don't notice many threads being deleted. But I tend to avoid contentious threads and I usually ignore users that seem problematic, so perhaps that explains it. The angst over this particular deleted thread mostly overlooks the fact that the thread's OP made specific accusations of fraud and stated it was to be a repository for future such claims. That is a very distinct difference than accusing someone of shoddy service or botching an order and creates liability problems for A'gon. A'gon allows discussion that is critical of dealers and manufacturers, but there's a limit. The post under review here was properly removed, imo. | |||||||||||||||
@cleeds You do seem to be the most righteous member of Audiogon having luxury of receiving answers on why your post or discussion is getting removed. I'm not sure if there are more members with such privilege, but for us "simple folks" discussions and posts being removed either with auto-answer or with no answer at all whether we use Contact Us link or don't I too want to give you medal for that -- how about "Honored Audiogon Member Veteran", because you really deserve it! As for you @allenf1963 , you can clearly see what's happening. After the post removed, just try to "play" with different words so you can beat the underdeveloped algorithm of Audiogon. It often works. Looks like word Fraud is too political so you can use wrongly spelled version like "FROD" as an example, or replace with less heavy synonyms. | |||||||||||||||
While I've always been treated fairly and courteously by Audiogon staff, I don't think I've received any privileged treatment. I know a few other A'gon users "in real life," so I know my experience isn't unique. | |||||||||||||||
You want active moderation? Try Roon's forum. They have a huge number of moderators who appear to move posts into different threads constantly. It's super confusing because they'll move a post out and start a new thread with it when the poster had no intention of starting a thread, and then the poster gets grief for starting the thread. That's not to say the mods don't perform a valuable service, but there is such a thing as over moderation. The difference with Roon is that the forum software is much more sophisticated and can help you retrace steps and see what happened. The Audiogon forum does feel more basic in its function. | |||||||||||||||
@cleeds -- Thank you for explaining the details regarding how to contact the Admin on this site. It is possible that the times I used the "Contact Us" feature, Audiogon's reply may have gone into my Spam Folder. I am fairly religious about checking my personal email Spam and Junk Mail Folders (I owned a business for 30 years so I checked them several times a day which led to doing the same with my personal accounts), but anything is possible. Again, thanks for the heads up.
We will just have to agree to disagree about the OP's language in his thread. I thought he and the others that were familiar with these companies provided damning evidence to back up each claim and to answer each objection. I saw the post as a Public Service Annoucement to "watch out". I did some digging before I started this thread to make sure I did due diligence. Do you not find it puzzling that the websites of the companies mentioned do not show Verdant Audio products in their drop-down menus...but if you do a web search that includes the name of the online company and Verdant Audio you get links where you can then purchase Verdant Audio products at prices THOUSANDS of dollars less than anywhere else? According to Verdant Audio, at prices lower than his cost to import them. The post by Robert Neill provided additional examples of the "F" word.
You may have noticed, I have not stated the names of the two companies in question and I'm trying to avoid spelling out the "F" word. Hopefully that will keep my post from being shut down. I did find a copy of the original post with all the replies and made screen shots of the entire thread. | |||||||||||||||
We don’t disagree there at all, @allenf1963. The problems were that it included accusations of felony fraud and then doxxed one of the accused. The OP was apparently both a dealer and a manufacturer. His fraud allegations included a claim that a non-authorized dealer was selling his product. I understand the OPs ire at that but selling gray market goods isn’t fraud. The thread was also established to be a repository for future allegations of fraud. Those allegations of fraud create potential liability for A’gon, so the thread was properly deleted, imo. A’gon is filled with claims of bad service, poor support, dicey web sites and the like. But when the leap is made to allege a felony, that’s not A’gon’s place. Users should alert proper authorities of those allegations. | |||||||||||||||
@cleeds, you wrote:
Well, if that is the case, Audigon has a LOT OF WORK to do. Because when you do a Forum Discussion Search using the word "Fraud", you get 1,372 Thread Results going back to the year 2000. So much for Audiogon’s even-handed approach to enforcing its "Forum Discussion Rules". I see actions like this all the time in ad revenue driven Forums -- somebody with skin in the game went to the Audiogon Moderators. Considering the thread involved the possibility of losing several thousands of dollars to sham websites, the Mods decision stinks more than burning Caps that are overloaded.
Here are some older examples:
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You’re being more than a bit over dramatic. If you think the moderators here are so dishonest, why are you here? Doesn’t your presence simply further their secret agenda? The examples you cite are really aren't the equivalent of the deleted thread. | |||||||||||||||
An official Audiogon forum moderator said, “If your Forum Post or Discussion was removed, it is because a user flagged it…” In lieu of behaving like a sniveling child that goes running to the teacher and/or principal when a classmate says something they don’t like, a person may just behave like an adult and either, It is unlikely, but there is a chance choosing option “b” may start a fruitful, edifying conversation for not only both parties involved, but other users. We can take responsibility for our own behavior and not act like it’s some oversimplified thing of, “Big Bad Admin erasing stuff we want to read.” Everyone (including admin) just wants an informative and enjoyable forum. | |||||||||||||||
So…I checked today and the domestic site that was supposedly for a business in Kansas is already gone. That was hosted on the Shopify platform and they aren’t going to support open fraud. The only legacy they seem to have is an entry on malware.org saying to avoid them at all costs because they were straight up fraud. the other site is unclear who hosts it and who the CC processor is. That is unfortunately who we need to deal with these sorts of bad actors. | |||||||||||||||
@tylermunns -- I think I agree with what you said. If I read it to say, "Be big boys and girls -- if there is something you don’t agree with, don’t go running to the Admins like a "Karen In Training" Little Johnny", I could not agree more. I have a copy of the post by @verdantaudio if you care to see it. Again, for the life of me I can’t understand what was said that warranted the "Discussion Being Shut Down" -- unless it was a complaint from a Member that has more pull than you or I. Every time a Member tried Option B, VerdantAudio and another Member provided evidence that shot down the Member’s complaint. I’m glad we got an update regarding the one online company that had a false storefront in the middle of "Bum(you know what) Kansas. It was actually comical. If you Goggle Earthed the address they had listed online, it was a rural farmhouse in the middle of Kansas off a two-lane road with absolutely NOTHING around for miles except for a grain silo and cows. No warehouse, no shipping building...exactly the type of location where $15,000 speakers would be stored and shipped from 😂😂.
Mr. @thecarpathian, I have seen you on this Forum for a long time and know that you post quite often -- sometimes in a spirited manner with other Members. I respect you and what you say, and I can’t think of an instance where you went "over the line". All I can say in response to your comment above: It’s not being unhappy with the way things are run. I very much enjoy this site and the information that is shared openly and freely. What bothers me is seeing "Forum Guidelines" that are not followed at best, or totally ignored at worst, because honestly, I have no idea which posts cross the line and which do not based on the discussions/debates/outright name-calling flame fests I’ve seen over the last 8 years on this site. Don’t believe me? Just go to the Forum Library and search "Cable Deniers", "After Market Fuses", or "Should I Burn In My Gear", pop a huge bowl of popcorn, and prepare for WWIII. Why are post like these that can run 4 or 5 pages deep containing upwards of 300 comments (290 of which contain nothing except rude comments and school yard taunts) allowed to stay up...yet the post we are discussing now which referenced fraudulent activity where individuals had already lost thousands of dollars....gets shut down?
I’m hoping the one scammer got kicked off the online shopping site due to the actions of @verdantaudio and others who alerted the Kansas Fraud Department. I for one tip my hat to Members who publicize these Public Service Announcements to help protect us -- even if it leads to someone running to the Admins. At least SOME WORD will get out if the post ultimately gets shut down. | |||||||||||||||
My post was nothing more than an attempt to be mildly amusing. Fact is, there is no rhyme nor reason why posts stay and posts go. Sometimes it boils down to what gets flagged and what doesn't. Sometimes completely innocuous posts get deleted while down right nasty ones stay. It's a mystery, like the Loch Ness monster or Eskimos. Or, why the heck I'm wide awake at 3:39 am wondering why my cat is such a jerk. The Universe is full of wonder and mystery. | |||||||||||||||
@thecarpathian -- If you can figure out why our cats are jerks, please let me know and we will market the "solution" making millions of dollars in the process! My 7 month old rescues (an Orange brother and his Tortie sister) are teaching my wife and I a thing or thirty about kittens! Mainly, they have one brain cell between them and they take turns using it!
I had no idea you could continue to post on closed threads. I can’t even find the thread once it has been shut down. For example, the thread by @verdantaudio we are discussing does not come up if you search for it. However, if you saved the daily email from Audiogon that had the thread listed (which I did), it appears if you click the link. Must be an Audiogon glitch. You can’t make additional posts -- but you can read the OP and all the comments that get addressed one by one. | |||||||||||||||
I guess whenever people or businesses are actually named, and words like “fraud” and “scammer” are bandied around in the same sentence, then moderators will naturally apply a higher standard when assessing whether or not a post or thread requires intervention. There’s a legal risk in playing host to derogatory and inflammatory comments, and it’s not really viable for moderators to venture out into the world and investigate the claims being made. They’re not attorneys and they’re not the Better Business Bureau, so they’ll naturally and rightly err on the side of caution. If you want to see wild and unwarranted moderation, spend some time on the WBF.
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