How good is good enough?

Some people here double down as if it was a game and ask and even thanks for never being satisfied ,😁 is it not incredible ?

It is like in front of a rational task to do and asking to do the same mistakes  without end ...

Myself i asked few years ago BEFORE my audio journey to reach the shore of acoustical satisfaction ... i did it as said my motto : minimal acoustical satisfaction at low cost ...

You know why ?

You cannot own thousand and thousand of albums and own a 100,000 bucks system at the same time and thousand of books if you are not "Dr." Bill Gates

I listen music with my gear not the reverse ...

And what is fun in this journey is not buying 50 amplifiers etc but to learn acoustic and learn the way to embed any system .. When the basic is done your audio journey is over ... Repeating the same mistakes without understanding anything is madness ... Or you are a billionnaire collecting high cost gear instead of music and books ...

Anybody with big money anyway know that room acoustic done by a pro acoustican designer cost more than a high end system .. Learn basic and do it yourself, even imperfectly done it will be amazing for S. Q. and as learnings ... And you will reach the shore of the minimal acoustic satisfaction which is bliss with music not a stop gap as obsessive collectors will point out ...

It don’t mean a thing if it ain’t got that bling. 

I'm confronted with this question often; but my answer is hopefully never. When that day comes, I'm no longer interested in audio.  But that doesn't mean I run out and buy more or different stuff.  I tweak my room, move my speakers, reconfigure my racks, reorganize my records and CDs, check that my stuff has the latest firmware, and on and on. 

To me the fun is in engaging with the environment and the equipment.  May I never be fully satisfied.

I just reached mine yesterday adding a second sub to my stand mounted integrated amp driven CD player. I started when I was 20 now 75.

Now I gotta focus on increasing my hearing range, which begs the question what is listening thru hearing aids like?

"More than 40% of people over 70 have difficulty hearing, compared to around 5% of people under 40. On average, the hearing threshold worsens by one decibel every year after the age of 50."

My 'good enuf' was when I had to accept the fact (OCD or not) that I had probably optimized the only room I had which would accomodate my audio habits.  Since I designed my house I felt I was stuck with it, and I am. But I'm happy. :-)

@jonwolfpell

Doesn’t it essentially depend on both how much music reproduction means to us in conjunction w/ the number of 0’s in our bank account?

I’d argue it also depends up now much MUSIC means to us, as opposed to its reproduction. Some guys seem to only be capable of enjoying music unless it’s presented optimally. There’s been an exhibit of Van Gogh works in Sacramento, which involves projecting them on museum walls much larger than life, so attendees feel they’re "inside" the paintings. This suggests a widespread dulling of aesthetic sensitivity. Nothing reaches people unless they experience the "IMax’ version. If you are wealthy, this is not necessarily an issue. But if you’re not, I’d suggest it’s advantageous to have/cultivate a capacity for appreciating art, first and foremost, which has nothing to do with gear. Then, you appreciate a more refined presentation as a luxury rather than a requirement. 

If the queston is not based on reality and acoustics parameters and acoustic satisfaction ..

Then the question is a question about psychology...

Easy to answer...

There are normal people happy with what they have so imperfect it is and they listen music ..

There is people obsessed by sound who are never satisfied because they never look at the right place to be satisfied: acoustics basic .. Instead their pleasure is to buy without end the gear ...

There is a few like me completely happy to listen music in a mechanically , electrically and acoustically well embedded basically good modest system /room who has reached the minimal acoustical satisfaction threshold or very costly well embedded system/room as Mike Lavigne who had reach the maximal acoustical satisfaction threshold ...Because we learned how to do it ...

Three groups ...No more ...

The question is not based on an objective reality, but how good enough it is for YOU

@hilde45

“that criteria can be settled in advance, with examples marching in afterwards to be judged like contestants in a beauty contest”

The question is not based on an objective reality, but how good enough it is for YOU?

The only problem I see with your argument is that there are people who are never done with their acoustic treatments, too.

You cannot put consumerism obsession to buy the last top audio design on the same footing than acoustics..

😊

There is an end in acoustic because acoustic unlike a piece of gear is not a new panel, it is a room designing process made for a specific speakers/room relation ...The end of this process is programmed by acoustic principle application in some order and is finite ..

Many audiophiles buy new pieces of gear one after the other for decades but where is the audio thread where an audiophile says it treated his room and put some controls on it for decades and decades and is never satisfied ?😁 indicate me one?

Asking the question is realizing the absurdity to compare consumerism and basic applied acoustics controls...

At worst with no money , a nut head as me can do it for a year full time yes to learn about acoustic and make impractical experiments as i did with a grid of 100 tuned resonators, but even this crackpot learning process ended after a year.. And now after loosing my acoustic room in a new house, it takes me a few months to finalize my acoustic smaller room...

Acoustics is an applied art and craft based on science , buying pieces of gear to reach acoustic satisfaction is as you described it better than me a work of an obsessed mind who had not discovered yet how to liberate himself and satisfy himself : he ignore acoustics basic keys about hearing ,then he focus on price tag gear collecting ..

Now as an example :

Listen to this astonishing video about the greek audiophile society...

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/what-say-you-2/post?postid=2635251#2635251

How many of these very creative audiophiles so crafty they were, not passive consumers, even if they are obsessed by good sound, how many are focussing on the acoustics instead of the mechanical, electrical aspect of the gear pieces they all designed completely or in part ?

My point is unlike gear design perfectionism craftmanship in the best case, or unlike gear design collection obsession in the worst case  , acoustics controls has an end and is the more important key , not the stability of a turntable , or the source of the electrical alimentation , not the tube amplifiers design , so important they could be , and they are indeed ; but acoustic in my experience outclass anything else in basic and even in ultimate  improvement ... The only exception is poor gear component with no synergy for sure ... but designing a room for audio obey a finite set of simple rules and it has a end because it serves specific ears and specific gear choices...The system must has been chosen BEFORE  room acoustics choices for best result ...Here some of these audiophiles are obssesed and bought 50 amplifiers in one year never thinking about room acoustic ..😊

Thats all ....

dean_palmer: The problem with having and experiencing the nicer things in life is that everything else starts to become boring, obsolete, and pleasureless, and yes, sometimes it doesn’t add anything to your life but takes away from some of the simple pleasures we once enjoyed, and thus the endless quest for more.

Sometimes it’s the chase that’s the most exciting

Not at all , it is the learning process which is interesting...

But some think that buying 40 amplifiers to test them is the basic learning; some others as me look for a good enough amplifier and begin to learn how to embed it electrically, mechanically and acoustically ...

The journey has a beginning and an end : music listenings ...Not consumerism and the fun of buying the new kid on the block...

Some drive a car they contributed to design and some others collect 50 cars in a garage ...It is not the same hobby ...Some buy a new car each year...

The Music Direct catalog that comes every year has replaced the Sears catalog of my youth.  There is always something in there that piques my interest. And then I dream....

Good enough is live music. If you don’t want that then this is not your hobby. Just be happy find something else. It takes huge investment to get close to that. But as an audio file, it’s even better than that, because we also listen for pleasure so things are not shaped accurately. They are shaped more for listening pleasure.

if I put you in a race car, you’re not gonna like driving it! if I put you in a Bentley you’re going to like it a lot more, but that’s what it equates to, in terms of costs.

Very good post!

My answer will be because we refuse or do not understand why we must learn minimal basic acoustics concepts and how experimenting with them ...

Thank you!

The only problem I see with your argument is that there are people who are never done with their acoustic treatments, too.

Put another way -- I think you’re right that too many people ignore acoustics and focus on gear. But there are people who cannot stop treating their room and that amounts to exactly the same endless chase. So, it's not wrong but it's not sufficient for the more general malady.

We all know you can get a surprisingly musical sounding system for a few thousand dollars, a really nice set up for $10K, $20K, 30K etc & if chosen correctly, amazing sounding systems for whatever you want to spend w/ not much limit. 
 

Doesn’t it essentially depend on both how much music reproduction means to us in conjunction w/ the number of 0’s in our bank account?

We all drop a couple $’s without thinking about it, maybe $5 or $10 the same but perhaps not so much w/ $50, $100 or $200 but that’s just pocket change for a person w/ many millions  in the bank. 

Sometimes it’s the chase that’s the most exciting 

I can't say I'm never upgrading anything more, but I've reached a point where spending more money on upgrades is not really going to improve my listening experience. Most people including your friends and family will never care if you spend their inheritance on a really expensive system because you want to sit there and replay the plucks of a string instrument to impress them with the realism of your system. They will not care, most people will not care about slight differences in your system or music. I'd almost say nobody cares, but nobody in my orbit cares about my system or would even want to sit and listen. It's about me, and I sure will not have my life enriched in any way because of some slight difference in sound and we sure don't sit around talking about the spend. Most people on the planet want to enjoy the music as background and do not want to sit and hear you ramble on about swapping tubes, amplifier architecture, etc. Once you realize nobody cares about what you bought, you'll be in a better place. Once you get past the obsession of buying things, you'll feel better. A huge expensive system may be amazing, but it will add nothing to your life, maybe the opposite.

My goal was from the beginnings to create a system for music...never to use few music albums to test my system ...

I own 10,000 albums...😊

I invested in music and books (i will not reveal how many books😊 ) not in a hundred of thousand dollars system gear...

I discovered that some acoustic controls with basic good gear is enough ..

I listen music all day long and come here to speak with unknown friends...

I spoke too much, but i hope to be useful in a way if not entertaining ...

For me this " how good enough is enough question" related question is interpreted as a money related question by most...

Most dont understand that minimal satisfaction threshold, once synergy between pieces of gear is reached come from acoustics control over the speakers/ears/room ...

Price tag is secondary even if for sure for example the Microzotl pre-amplifier i returned last month because there was no synergy with my AKG K340 is way better and not in the same ball park than the last tube pre-amplifier i bought few weeks ago for 50 bucks but which had synergy with my 100 bucks speakers which is why i bought it for ( my Sansui alpha was better than the very high quality ZOTL for the K340 then nothing will replace it for the K340 ) ...

I would have keep the 2000 bucks amplifier if the grin on my wife face had not speak otherwise for sure... But how wise could it be to keep a 2000 bucks pre-amplifier for some 100 bucks active speakers? ( they are stunning now after my modifications on their design trust me )

Audiophile experience is about synergy and acoustics (not mere room acoustic) not about price tag and not even about top design ...😁

Audio hobby is good if it make you more creative and at the end serve music not sound quality obsession grounded on gear design marketing more than in acoustics ...

I’ll be done when my wife says so! After bringing home speakers almost as tall as she is, the wife doesn’t want any more.  Especially a pair of Maggie 3.7i’s😁

I'm not sure that the concept of "good enough" is what drives most of us in this hobby. Passion and curiosity pushes the limits of practical thinking. 

Very good post!

My answer will be because we refuse or do not understand why we must learn minimal basic acoustics concepts and how experimenting with them ...

We condemn ourself to consumerism in the pursuit of an illusion related to the gear marketing which is no no more an acoustic question but reduce to a psychological obsession ...

Am i wrong ?

It is my experience observing myself ...

To my mind, the question redounds why some think it can be asked and answered. The question becomes, Why are you (we) Sisyphus? when it comes to asking such impossible questions?

the best i can afford

To constantly strive for better sound is an endless quest, not necessarily based on the quality of our set but on our personality.

This is another thread about when a certain quantity of quality sound is "enough."

Having heard this question umpteen times, I have lost respect for it. After a certain point, sound really doesn’t get much better -- at least not as much as it gets different.

Compare an expensive Audio Note system with an expensive system built around, say, Wilson. Or Magico. Or Magnepan. Or whatever. Is it really reasonable to say one is better -- in terms of quantity of quality -- over another? This is an absurd question. It’s asking whether Picasso is better than Rembrandt.

These are children’s questions because they are absurd. They’re absurd because the act of asking already presupposes that criteria can be settled in advance, with examples marching in afterwards to be judged like contestants in a beauty contest. It is a Sisyphusean question.

To my mind, the question redounds why some think it can be asked and answered. The question becomes, Why are you (we) Sisyphus? when it comes to asking such impossible questions?

@witchitadog

"Good enough" for me is unstable at the moment because I'm curious about different types of speakers, amp and DAC topologies and architecture. 

Historically, I've always felt that reading and participation in forums like this always created some level of FOMO, which lead to purchases. I usually don't keep my speakers and equipment if upgrading or trying something different. I've learned that this is actually the counter balance to FOMO since purchasing, and especially selling, on the used market is kind of a pain. 

For me acoustics was more important in my learnings and in sound quality that the price of capacitors or the price of crossovers ...

For many it is the opposite...

But it is better to have perfect room acoustic with less good capacitors and crossovers than the reverse...

Any showcase with hundred of thousand dollars system mediocre sound quality is proof of my claim ...

Most audiophiles are focussing on gear, not on acoustics as much... They conflate acoustics understanding and experiments with few panels on a wall ...

It stops when you find out what makes sound do what it does.  It is not pricing that dictates sound, it is design and parts quality.  You can upgrade your existing components using better parts that the manufacturer used and get fantastic results without spending that much compared to what are considered reference components.  We do this all the time probably 5 units each month.  Even $20K units are improved greatly.

I am done.  Until I change my mind 

I’ve spent enough money on upgrades that provided a barely detectable difference (note: not necessarily improvement) despite reviews and recommendations that promised otherwise. So, any future upgrades will be out of shear curiosity or gadget-interest more than an expectation of audio nirvana.

Once you get the room right, size, soundproofing and acoustic treatments, it will be much easier to get over that upgrading equipment need. With an average room, the upgrade equipment bug will never leave you. At least it has been my experience with the house of stereo. Complicated, expensive and lengthy project but I have never regretted it. You get what you pay for is as true as anything in room acoustics.

One piece of upgraded audio gear is too many and 100 is not enough 

It's good enough until it isn't. I'm done until I'm not.

I'll add that I also have a full rack of gear (sitting here next to my desk) that can be rolled in if I were to want to play an LP or CD/DVD/BluRay, class A/B amp, experience Dirac, hear the (benefits?) of Denafrips DAC w/upgraded PS, or the (amazing?) improvements of a capacitor-riddled power regulating AC filter. But you know that hasn't happened in over a year now. That rack of gear has become an extension of my desk - another horizontal surface to stack papers. 

Appreciate the sentiment and can relate to your statement/question.

My 2-channel journey took me all the way around to the most enjoyable system I've ever experienced. And when you say "Big Fish", let me shock you with minimal system components - both of them (if you count active speakers):

1) Old Samsung Note 9 (with a broken screen) sitting on a continuousely charging DeX cradle that also has HDMI and USB outputs and a dongle that strips (S/PDIF coax) audio off the HDMI output. <-- Yes, that is the extent of the "gear".

2) Speaker system: Pair of DIY Linkwitz LXmini and pair of DIY Linkwitz Phoenix(alt) open-baffle subs with a Hypex FA123 mounted in each. These receive the digital signal with their coax inputs, provide crossover and DSP tuning duties - driving all 6 channels actively.

The HDMI is connected to a TV for displaying/selecting streaming sources, Note9 is controlled with wireless keyboard/trackpad. Turn the system on by switching on the TV, phone automatically awakens in DeX-mode by default. Soon as I begin playing something (usually AmazonMusic or YouTubeMusic), the Hypex amps signal-sense and auto powerup - all from the couch. Another beauty of the system is... there is only ONE digital-to-analog conversion, and it's at the very last stage - just before amplification (avoiding analog-to-digital conversions altogether and avoiding multiple digital-to-analog conversions) and literally in the speakers.

I've been through so much gear, so many speakers, cal mic measurements with REW, Dirac, etc. (all a great hobby experience and learned a lot) - years of that to end-up here... thoroughly enjoying the "non-system" that I built from the plans of a genius (Linkwitz).

BTW, I still have most of the gear (stacked in the basement) and some of the speakers (GoldenEar Triton One's were repurposed to HT as an example), and if I thought it would improve the 2-ch sound, would readily reinsert - but experience and measurements have shown it won't/doesn't. Also, the 2-ch room has no treatments... unecessary with OB-subs and omni/dipole cardioid speakers.

The system is essentially non-existant except for speakers, powers-up without touching a unit or warm-up time, videos or not (as wished), and excellent spacial sound without a bad seat in the room - I even moved the sweat-spot Eames chair & ottoman to the granddaughter's room (for when she visits).

huh?

My system is in the lower 5 figures (under 20K) and most of it was bought used. I got JBL XPL 140 speakers, Lexicon MC12 preamp, LX7 amp, Modwright/Oppo BDP 95, JBL 2241 Sub, Crown XLS 1500 sub amp.. I heard a 6 figure system with Wilson Sashas and It didn't grab me at all. My System murdered this high dollar big name set up. This is my end game system and I ain't worried about it. I am still doing tweaks on it, but I'm done shopping.

Utility functions for luxury goods are difficult to define…..Don’t let the “ dismal science “ squeeze the  joy out of that Civic sized investment….

Just an Econ dude $.02 adjusted for deflation 

I am married to an economist, we both believe in the concept of marginal cost versis marginal gain.  Now that I am 75 and my hearing is slowly declining I believe there is no future in upgrading my system.

It is not uber expensive, but would cost about a new Honda Civic to replace.  I am in my happy okace and spend my energies listening and no longer worry about gear changes.  Revel in the present!!

Good enough is when you are emotionally involved with the music.  

Myself , like Tomic, I’m never done, but the pace forward has slowed to a crawl  because what I hear in my room doesn’t demand more to my ears. What I search for is the music. Enough said. I’d rather go fishing, surfing. Haha, lol. 

As for audio equipment, after 50+ years of budgeting for modest updates or incremental upgrades I’m 95% sure I am at “good enough”.

I'm done.... maybe.

Spend as much as you can truly extend ,especially the most critical 2 pieces 

the front end like Dac quality ,streamer LPS power supplies 

and Good quality Loudspeakers.

Ya do what ya gotta do when you can do it!

It's good enough when you hit your limits:

Room and credit

I am an audiophile. I want the very best sound I can afford and am happy to allocate a disproportionate amount of my disposable income to achieve this.
 

Typically I do an upgrade cycle every seven years and just really enjoy the music in between upgrade cycles. During the hiatus I stay up on Stereophile, The Absolute Sound, and HiFi+ as well as casually work on small positioning and tweaks to improve the sound. I also help friends put together systems and occasionally go to high end audio shows.

Pretty happy listening to Cal Tajder and Eddie Palmieri through 2a3 SET amps at the moment.

immatthewj: I know what you mean and am happy for you! Old habits can be hard to break!