enough amplifier power
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Hard to tell which way you really are going with this so I will just say your example supports what I keep repeating, the most important thing is speaker sensitivity. Your flea watt amp probably sounds absolutely captivating. That is the calling card of OTL. But low power absolutely calls for high sensitivity speakers. Most people, if they would simply do as I recommend and avoid anything under 92dB will then be able to enjoy great sound from a wide selection of amps with anywhere from 20 watts on up. If they go to 98dB then even a flea watt amp like yours will still deliver a clean 101dB on peaks, and still be as you say beautifully immediate. I think you are right about people not noticing. So many speakers out there are 88dB, which is freaking ridiculous, these do need hundreds of watts. No wonder these same people are always opining on the importance of finding the right amp to match. They could use yours and be happy but they would have to ditch their Wilsons and Magicos for tenth the price Tekton and Klipsch, something few who have drank that Cool-Aide are likely ever to do. |
We never get sick of this! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sg14jNbBb-8 That is why Klipsch put a bad taste in my molars and ears. Aren’t they like 103 or 104 db@1w - 1m? Hooked up to early 90’s Adcom monoblocs. They were just, all treble and no bass. Hurt my ears. I mentioned this before, hooked up other amps over the next 3-4 weeks. All the other amps sounded better, through the Klipschorns. I can see where a 75 W amp can be enough for such high spl speakers. BUT.....if you want to crank it up with Motörhead, or suffocation, Y&T, Saxon, Forbidden, Kreator etc etc. most metal and hard rock is so compressed on some CDs, it distorts fast. Where an LP does not. I totally get it. I will never have less than 250W amps. That’s just me. been there and learned my lesson. Who knows, when I hit 70, maybe I will get a 7 W set amp for a pair of QSC stage monitors. Plus, it’s bragging rights. You don’t hear “dude, come over and see my new 3W mono beast amps. (a joke for those easily butthurt these days). :) my lowest power amps now are the Odyssey kismet monos with about 350-370W into 3.5 - 4 Ohms. 200W into 8 Ohms. They do put out some watts, they seem to have more power than they are rated for. Cheers! POWER!!!!!!!” |
My Vandersteens are 87db efficient and work great with 120 wpc .. I generally don't listen much above 90db SPLs.. Probably a Pass Labs Int-60 (which is rated conservatively) would be more than enough for the Vandies. I wouldn't mind having speakers that are 93-96db, and then I could run the Linear Tube Audio integrated amp (20W) that I covet. I don't lose sleep over it, as I like my current speakers. |
In my second system I use 65 wpc Ayon Spirit 2 tube integrated with my JM Reynaud Offrande Supreme V2s which are 90DB. More than enough power and more loss of musicality without going beyond 10-11 "o’clock". In my main system I have Daedalus Argos V2 which are 97.5DB. I rotate between 3 amps every couple of weeks ; 22wpc Line Magnetic 518IA 22wpc 845 tube SET; a Finale Audio 7189 MK2 7189a/EL84M 22wpc tube pushpull; and Modwright LS100pre/KWA100SE 120wpc SS. The 22wpc amps don’t give anything up vis a vis the Modwright’s 120wpc, just differences in sound between the 3 amps |
The golden rule is that your amplifier should be about twice as powerful as your speaker can handle (RMS or peak, as long as both devices are measured the same way). This is for a safety margin to be able to handle clipping. If your amplifier can soft clip, then pretty much anything goes, as long as you can live with the distortions of either, when pushed to their limits. |
@cakyol completely agree. Had a good hour and a half+ conversation with Roger Sanders a while back. we covered quite a bit, I asked so many questions, he answered every question with complete care, and when I asked him “English please” he explained everything so I can understand. A damn good dude!” You need minimum double the watts for a given speakers continuous rating. Headroom, with the amps ability to stay absolutely stable, and with complete ease to drive the speaker to the limits (vol knob) to what you want with no clipping what so ever. I’ve been a believer of this for the past 20 years. Once I talked to my audio guys from simply stereo in.............YES, orland park, ILL. back on about 1990-1993 I think. Loved those guys, wish I still had contact with them. They were my heroes back then, and taught me a lot about audio, brands, speakers' amps, cables' etc etc. Anyway. I’m a believer of never enough power, for the ease to drive music without the possibility of clipping Aaahhhhh. Bushmills 21! |
Sorry. I don’t get the argument here. So the OP has a 1.5 watt amp, then complains that amplifier power is necessary to enjoy really good sound??? My speakers are rated at 90 dB/w/m. Average sensitivity. My amplifier is rated 90 w/ch clean. So?? I rarely use more than 5 watts/ch of power for loud listening levels. So, what am I missing here? Is 85 watts headroom not enough?? Is this some example of “Common Core” math??? |
"...The golden rule is that your amplifier should be about twice as powerful as your speaker can handle..." I’ve never heard such a rule. The reality is you need an amp that at a minimum gets the job done. But if you like to really jack up the volume, you better have a good amount of headroom. RMS power is meaningless because it's the distorted peaks that kill drivers. |
OP here. I am not complaining about my amplifier. I am acknowledging the likelihood that it is not enough even for my efficient loudspeakers. I think a lot of us drive our loudspeakers to amplifier distortion on dynamic peaks. Agree or disagree is the question. Perhaps I could ask for Ralph Karsten’s opinion (@Atmasphere) since he has discussed this regarding SETs in the past. Perhaps he could take it further with amplifiers in general. |
You know who is bashing some of the best sounding speakers on the planet to go with some of the cheapest sounding speakers while indicating that there is no difference in SQ between them. Far far from reality. Unless you are talking about the old large klipsch speakers, I can’t listen to any other klipsch for more than a few minutes. Same goes for tektons. There are so many excellent speakers out there that cost $1000 or more that are much better than these 2 brands, but with better speakers, you will need better equipment to get them to sound their best, wether the amp needed is a SET amp or a 1200 watt monoblock |
There was a thread a while back that went something like this, "if you were starting over, what would you do differently"If given a do-over, the one thing I would do differently would be to start with more efficient speakers that were an easier load to drive. That would have opened my world up to many more good amplifier possibilities at more affordable prices. Having said that, I did find speakers I like but they are a fairly tough load and need lots of power to really sing. Several Class A amps couldn't quite cut it and I finally found what I needed with a pair of 650 wpc monoblocks. Having that big power does make a difference when you feel like cranking it up for that closer to real experience, but also at moderate listening levels, IMO. |
Want to use low powered amps? Efficient Speakers and/or Self powered subs for the power hungry bass, then you can use a much less powerful amp for your mains, both amp and speakers benefit from this. Recently, I came across an amp company that specifically stated that bass is 65% of the load. SUBS, two, non-ported, front firing, located near mains to maintain stereo imaging, via both the primary frequency and overtones. One sub can achieve the same advantage, I use only one self-powered sub in my office, very nice bass extension to small bookshelf speakers, think of it as ’Bose’ bass, i.e. Bass everywhere. or: Bi-Amp, If your full range speakers allow it. Delicate low powered amp, (much easier to try tubes) for mids and highs; Monster, probably SS for bass. |
I primarily encourage higher efficiency speakers to allow trying tubes. A bigger SS amp is primarily a function of money. Weight, size, reduced placement options: potential torn meniscus or herniated disk hazards. Smaller tube amp saves money, less heat, smaller size gives more placement options. If you don't like horns, or have the space horns need, that limits your choices. If you don't like ports, or passive radiators, also less choices. Smaller spaces leads to smaller speakers, leads often to less efficiency, often 4 ohms. The smaller mains benefit most by either bi-amping, or self-powered subs. Stripping low bass only to subs, amp and less efficient mains handling upper bass, mids and lows only |
MC225 25 wpc, Little valve amp.. I use that with Infinity RS4Bs, they are 93 or 4%. Wonderful. 150watt speakers. 5-10 watts normally. Cary V12r 50-100 wpc. VMPS RM30s 92-3% speakers 300 watt speakers. 5-15 watts normally. VTL 300 deluxe MB Valve amps or Class D Nords. VMPS RMx Elixirs 93%. WONDERFUL 500 watt speakers. 10-20 watts, sometimes 100-200 watts. That is LOUD 50" of ribbons X 2 look out.. 110 + db or 5 watts perfect for late night listening. Both are cut at 300hz and below and MB columns 1000 watt speakers 12K class d amps, work perfect.. plenty of overhead. 1-18 ohms.. I had the Elixirs on 17.5 watt 300Bs.. very impressive.. 4-10 watts perfect.. BUT they ran out of gas just a little too quick for me.. Sure made the RS4b sing.. great pairing.. 300Bs GREAT bass.. too. Respect |
So many speakers out there are 88dB, which is freaking ridiculous, these do need hundreds of watts. Ridiculous? Hundreds of watts? Come on. I’ve tried many speakers that are 87-92 db with amps that do 60 wpc, both tube and SS. They sounded great, full. There is more to it than sensitivity. This is why Pass named his series "First Watt" not "First 200 Watts." |
There is so much more to an amps power than watts per channel. WPC is an output equation that is a result of everything else going on under the hood. There are 500 wpc amps that won’t drive a 90 db speaker and then there are 10 wpc amps that will make the same speaker sing with no distortion. Thus your question is to simplistic for an in-depth conversation of what makes an amp an amp. For starter go read white papers on the difference between class a class a-b and class d amplification designs. Then come back with your question of what amp will drive my speakers! |
Some speakers require current so watts are not an issue. I recently built 30 watt tube mono block amplifiers all pure Class A. My friend has Mirage M-1 speakers. The mono block drove those speakers easier than the Rowland 7 mono blocks he has - much better sounding also - piano was gorgeous! Bass was so natural - highs so delicate - pure magic. The Rowlands did have better bass control but now much more. @ patrickdowns you should hear the mono's on my Vandersteen model 5A speakers pure magic! |
So the moral of the story is that we all should be listening to MC and ditch our under 92 DB efficient speakers? MC got me on”they should do as I recommended and avoid speakers under 92DB” how pompous of him.The moral of the story is you should read what I write and work on your reading comprehension. Like, "avoid" does not mean "get rid of". That is just a fact. You could look it up. In fact, I recommend you do. While you are at it, look up "pompous". Pretty sure it does not mean "helpful" which is what anyone who takes my advice and avoids low sensitivity speakers will agree, it certainly is helpful. Another good one, look up some adjectives for one with poor reading and writing skills. The more of those you learn, the less of a problem with it you will have. That ain't pompous, just a fact. And you could use the help. |
russ69, The reason for the twice as powerful requirement is for clipping. Do you know what that is ? If you overdrive an amp, it will clip and may actually DESTROY your speakers, typically starting with the tweeters first. With and amp twice as powerful as your speakers however, you cannot quite do that even if you accidentally want to because you will notice your speakers getting strained (but not destroyed) sounding really bad and you will turn the volume down. With clipping, you will not have enough time to react to turn down the volume. Clipping happens almost instantaneously. However, if you do have an amp which can soft clip (again, as I indicated above), then this danger is no longer there and any combination of speaker & amplifier can be used safely. |
So many things I agree with here, and disagree. Having efficient speakers opens up so many more choices in amps. I can drive my Crites speakers with the XA25(really 80W) to at least 105dB continuous without leaving Class A. Clear as a bell. Granted my ears can't take it but it sounds good. Having subwoofers does help your amp breath easier. So many variables here but I think it is more a mismatch of components than the sizing of the amp. I don't see why you need a boat anchor megawatt amp with efficient speakers. Not saying it won't sound good, it will. There are many examples of efficient speakers and even more examples of nice amps so we all should be able to find a match. |
