How easily can you distinguish between different DACs?
When I read reviews or watch them on YouTube the reviewers talk about the vast differences between various DACs. I haven't compared too many, but found the differences pretty subtle, at best.
Which got me into thinking: Is my hearing ability really that bad?
Do you notice the differences as easily as folks make out?
Learning the nuances of sound can be a lifetime endeavor. To jumpstart it is helpful to listen to vastly different sounding systems and acoustic instruments and concerts. The former to expose you to differences, the latter to calibrate you to what the real thing sounds like. Personally my favorite is the symphony. I’ve had season tickets to the symphony for ten years. Often I will listen to the ambience… the sound of the venue before music, then the individual instruments, the attack when a bow hits the strings. Then in smaller venues the pitch and tonal balance of a sax for instance. Pianoes are great.
Then to other systems. Go to high end stores and ask to audition some of their systems. Be honest in that you are interested in high end audio and are trying to get your feet on the ground about the sound that appeals to you. Go when it is not likely other folks will be there. Maybe take Wednesday off and go in. Maybe call in advance. Find a dealer (person) you really click with. They will be ecstatic to be your guide. This is the kind of person and relationship you will want to build. Good high end dealers know that building a relationship now will result in sales later. Sometimes a lot later. I have had relationships with dealers for 20 years.
Oh yes, one other thing. Try and listen to the music… not the component. It is important to listen quickly when you swap to detect major differences… but you want to let your subconscious soak up the sound… real important differences in musicality come out this way.
Also, if you are going to compare DACs… start by comparing vastly different priced ones… not similar. Try auditioning a $1K and $20K DAC. You want the differences to really stand out so you can become familiar with the kinds of things that are different.
Only the listener can determine if the difference they hear is huge or not - it’s all in their perspective. You can only go by your ears tell you and really, nothing else matters.
Reviewers on the internet are going for clicks. Kinda hard to get them if all they say is "Meh, I can tell a little bit of difference but not much"
I believe many people embellish their findings to insure they stay with the in-crowd. Especially if a lot of coin has been dropped to get their DAC - No one wants to look like a fool.
There are many DACs that can be grouped together as sounding very much the same. There ARE DACs that definitely stand out!
Listener’s seems to love arguing (discussing?) while comparing apple to oranges to peaches to pears. Everything is just so system dependent when you’re dealing with audio.
The higher sound quality of your system, the more you’ll be able to hear the difference in DACs
I’ve improved my system over the years and in doing so I’m better able to discern differences in components. Many time the improvements are small but noticeable, other times it hits you like a frying pan in the face.
It is quite easy to discern the differences between DAC's. Even moderate priced DAC by Schiit easily show how moving up the product line affects sound quality.
It would be easiest if you had the DAC's side by side, but once you have listened to one DAC for a while, you will note the differences easily. All this is subject to how resolving your system is.
I find it hard to tell the difference between DACs. I took this test and couldn't tell between a 90dB SINAD and 120dB. That was a super cheap trashy one vs a SOTA performing one. Some DACs add coloring of their own, and I don't think it should do that. I prefer my color to come from my choice of speaker.
So, I got a cheap DAC but it has killer features such as balanced outputs and DSD Direct bypass. Transparent beyond audibility with a 117dB SINAD. I have no complaints with the thing and DSD Direct mode sounds wondrous. So much juicy detail yet smooth and warm, this is the sound of analogue master tape. My digital side has never sounded this good, sounds like my turntable minus surface noise, achieved at like 1/30th the budget.
i agree, learning to hear differences and assessing sonic qualities is a learned skill, moreso for some than others, but true for all
for some top tier dacs, their sounds can be very very similar -- couple examples in my travels...
i had the bricasti m1 mdx, and the weiss 501 side by side for a month, a-b-ing back and forth, each using their own streaming front ends, both very highly respected and prized dacs... as much as i tried and tried, i simply could not reliably tell the difference ... so in the end i kept one and sold the other based on non-sonic considerations
otoh... i compared a topping d90 mqa to a chord qutest... listening to a single song, i could tell the chord was significantly better... clearer, more musical, more extended, less mechanical in presentation
To me the DAC is the signature component of a digital system and easy to hear the differences. Just had a guy bring over a PA Audio Directstream MK2 DAC to compare with my Chord Dave. Both are FPGA but from different continents. Differences were obvious.
You may have to listen a few minutes using songs you are very familiar with. If you stil can't tell the difference, you may need to work on the rest of your system. Make sure you use good cables, but even bad cables should reveal differnces.
A friend of mine, fairly new to the high end world was trying to decide between the Aurrender N100 ($3.5K new) I had lent him with his Schiit Yggdrasil (~$2.5K) he owned and a Linn DSM ($12K) with both streamer and DAC. So he hooked them both up and didn’t tell me which was which and asked me what I thought.
I would say it took maybe a minute to determine which was which and characterize the differences. After another 30 seconds… it appeared to be night and day between the two. I had him take my place, playing jazz, Blue Train. I explained… listen to the cymbals… hear that tssssss… that is distortion and high frequency trash… the Linn sounds like brass. Now listen to the sax… hear the richness and nuances as notes change… then listen to the drums… clearly located behind and natural sounding. I five minutes, he completely followed what I had said.
We also were able to use the Aurrender streamer with only the Linn DAC… this is where the difference was… it was virtually all the DAC.
He is driving back from the dealer with a brand new Linn in his trunk as I type this.
Most anyone can tell these differences… but it takes experience or a guide. Once you hear the differences it is hard not to. I know that my friend will be enjoying this Linn DSM for many years. He has it paired with an Audio Research LS28SE and VT80.
If I were you, I’d demo a broad range of DACs in your system before making any judgements, either about the gear or your ability to discern differences.
Differences between well designed DACs are tough to quantify. I use 2...an older Dacmagic (for older streamer and a CD player) and a current model Bifrost 2/64 for a newer streamer. Both sound amazingly good with an edge to the Bifrost, which will be tested further when I get a Schiit Urd (!) and use their bespoke USB system.
@balooo2My super bargain performer is the SMSL D-6. Edges out my DO100 due to DSD Direct mode, as PCM performance is roughly equivalent (both fantastic). I'm amazed at what these cheap DACs can do nowadays, high fidelity available to the masses.
After many years of auditioning audio equipment and analyzing frequency,responses, inner detail, size and shape of the soundstage etc. I now focus mainly on PRAT and musical engagement. If a tweak or new piece of gear gets me toe tapping and frolicking through my music collection with glee, it's a keeper. Good listening. Jeff
@audiodwebeIm with you. I struggle to hear many of the differences that others seem to. For example, I enjoy the SQ of Spotify and although Qobuz occasionally (depending on the recording) sounds different, I wouldn’t say it necessarily sounds better. The very next recording may behave all together differently.
So much of this hobby occurs in the 5” between your ears. Spend a boat load on a component and psychoacoustics and confirmation bias absolutely come into play. We are human after all. Again…only speaking for myself. What I find is that SQ determination cannot occur on the spot (A/B). One recording may shine on one component but another may not. So many variables. It takes me several weeks to decide yay or nay. Two hours in are you surfing the net or are you still engaged with the music? For me that’s the real test. And remember, “different” does not always equal “better”.
All competently designed DAC's sound alike - whether they cost $100 or $10,000. That's my belief/experience. Your beliefs and experiences may differ. DAC's are not turntables! In fact all competent DAC"s measure closely for distortion and noise.
All DACs have analog stages that are different from DAC to DAC and so is the voltage output. One would bring more another would bring less... Digital domain is pretty much the same.
Yea, some high priced DACs sound like garbage so a day and night difference. Others I have heard sound just fine. Just spend days comparing bottom tier chip DACs and the differences are as slight as different filters. I have yet to hear one "markedly better" but I'll keep searching. If I had $10K to spend, it would be on speakers. If given another $10K, It would still be on speakers. They matter and the very best of them suck compared to a $100 DAC. I am NOT saying a $4k DAC may not sound better even on $1K speakers, but money spent on the speakers ( or the room) will make a bigger difference.
It really ruffles feathers, but there is a point where there is nothing circuit wise to improve on after a mid-tier level. Mass market entry tier DACs are as good or better than most studio equipment the music was mastered on. Exclusive, aesthetics, price driven placebo, ego... If that is of value, then the market fulfills it.
One big difference for me is that ESS based DAC's seem to always be too bright sounding on my system and headphones. Both have ribbon drivers. I ended up with an R2R DAC that sounds much better to me.
I think the best way to decide how you like any new component is to live with it for a while. If you don't like it, it will become obvious quickly. If it's close, you can go back and forth and compare. Play lots of different music- see if you enjoy things you hadn't with the prior component. This seems to be the way reviewers do it.
I don't have really expensive DAC's, but what I do have are:
Bryston BDA2 Dedicated DAC
Internal DAC on my McIntosh C47 preamp
Internal DAC on my HEGEL H160 integrated
Topping D30 Pro Dedicated DAC
Internal DAC on my Bluesound player
When I have swapped my DAC's around, I really can't hear differences...The big differences for me are with speakers. Even the non-golden-ear listener that I am can hear big differences from transducers! I can only guess if I did a perfectly setup double-blind experiment with DAC's, I might be able to hear differences, but they would be ever so slight.
one of the reviewers put it up against his VPI turntable with a $5,000 Japanese cartridge and he said that the 10th anniversary DAC sounded every bit as analog, on that review I decided to purchase it, it comes with a 30-day trial period so I said what the heck and I totally agree it is one of the most analog sounding DACs I've had in my system, highly recommended not cheap though it's $4,500 US.
My same comment again - you have to learn what make sound do what it does. Look at the designs and you can see resemblance in designs. Then there are bigger differences like tubes, separate power supplies, etc. Most of the DACs in the $1K to $3K price range are very similar in design. Learning to hear the differences is great but if you have to struggle to go back and forth to hear them, IMO just stick with what you already have. We tell people all the time, if you don't hear the differences within 30 seconds, then just return our product.
comparing dacs is a step in system building. but for instance, having speakers and amps that are competent to reveal differences is a requirement to hear dac differences. or if you are using headphones, the quality of the headphones and amp.
most dacs are decent, although it’s hard to generalize. but beyond the concept of decent, many times there are differences, sometimes merely matters of taste, other times clear performance differences. sometimes the dacs are so close there are not apparent differences. you have to keep an open mind. and there is a learning curve to hearing differences.....that is a factor in doing compares. maybe you want some other ears to hear the compare too to get other perspectives? someone you trust with more experience?
so first things first; what is your system? i looked at your details and it only shows an interconnect. so hard to comment further.
personally i have done many dac compares, my last one compared the MSB Select II dac and Taiko Extreme server that i owned to the Wadax Reference dac and server. at the end of the direct compare, i sold the MSB and Extreme and bought the Wadax combo. the Wadax was clearly better based on my compare results.
it was a big effort. and i used my vinyl and tape as a reference. there were very significant differences and i had some listeners over to my home to witness the compare and help me with objective feedback, as it was a big deal and important to me. it took a few weeks to properly compare both dacs and both servers.
but the system and other references were an important part. and also comparing servers is an aspect of a dac compare. but it starts with having a system that can demonstrate differences.
Thanks, everyone, for your shared experiences. I do appreciate it.
Normally, how I evaluate new gear is to put it in and live with it for a while. Sometimes, the new piece doesn’t play well with whichever pieces are in play that it gets removed within a day or two.
I normally don’t do A/B comparison back and forth after a few songs. And to me, that sort of comparison gets tedious after a short while. Picking apart 30 seconds of a few songs gets old pretty quickly, and I generally give up and try to get my mind away from that “analyzing the sound” mindset I get into because once I get there it sometimes takes some time before I can take that hat off and start enjoying the music again.
I sometimes will have to put my 901 Series VI into my system to cleanse myself of audiophilia. With the 901s, they sound good pretty much anywhere I put them and since my expectations aren’t high, I get back into just listening to the “music” again.
BTW, the two I was comparing was the Perfectwave and Benchmark DAC3. I heard differences, but am not sure that can’t be attributed to the different XLRs I used going from the DAC into the preamp. The rest of the system is a Schiit Freya S and mono Aegirs. I’m late to the Schiit game but man, does this combo sound great!
So good, in fact, that I got my Aleph 2’s back from Pass with new internals this week and an Aleph P sitting by and I’m in no rush to swap the gear. The speakers now are the Dulcet BEs.
I need to put the Pass gear in, though, just to make sure nothing happened during the transit.
I've been through a number of DACs. Different chips, SS, R2R, tube buffers, etc. They all have their own sound. The bits might all be the "same", but how they get converted to digital is different and sounds different.
You may not be able to tell the difference. I would consider that a curse and a blessing. A curse, because either your ears or the rest of your system aren't up to the task of differentiating changes in sound quality. A blessing, because you won't need to spend more on a better DAC.
Sorry Jason, but all DACs do not sound alike any more than all turntable cartridges sound alike. Listen closely, pay attention to the sound and what you are hearing. Some DACs have better attack, decay, dynamic range, more musically accurate sounding timbres, with a darker background, and some people say, just as important as the sound, is the presentation in a soundstage (width and depth) and imaging. Many convincingly say that in the mid-price tiers, that an R2R DAC will offer better soundstage and imaging. YMMV because of your hearing, your training in listening, and such. To hear these differences, you do need to know what you are after - and what is important to you. After all two-channel audio is more than about "full range sound, for some people is about creating the illusion of a concert happening in front of you.
As John Darko says of the few standalone DACs he’s tested (none have been R2R AFAIK so far) that he loves the little Chord Qutest the most because it is the most musical to his ears. But he even says when doing comparisons that he can’t tell a huge difference, he calls it "splitting hairs". But to be fair, most of the DACs he has tested are in roughly the same price range. I’d like to see him get in some $4000 DACs and see what he says then in his nice acoustically treated listening rooms.
The thing is all DACs will make "sound". from a sub-$100 SMSL SU-1 to a $4000 Holo May. Whether or not you perceive a difference or a major one will depend on many factors. Most people CAN hear a marked difference between something as inferior as the onboard DAC in a WiiM Mini and pretty much anything else calling itself a DAC. I own a Mini and use it with a Schiit Modi 3+ in my garage, and even the Modi is a noticeable step up.
If you spend $1100 on a DAC then listen to a $2500 one and can’t hear anything much different, then simply save your money and call it a day. But know that there are people with ears and systems that can hear an improvement on up the food chain. I’d love to hear a $9000 Tambaqui DAC but doubt I’ll ever get that chance.
Right now I’m saving my pennies to get an R2R DAC, just not sure which one while I worry about longevity and serviceability after the warranty period is over.
On some DAC’s it’s night and day and some it’s very subtle. For example, I have a Schiit Bifrost and a Denafrips Pontus ll and they are night and day different!
They don't sound the same to me at all even at approximately the same price range. Right now I'm comparing a Denafrips Pontus ll against a Tubadour lll which are both R2R.Initial impression is the Tubadour is clearer with a cleaner attack. The Denafrips rounds the edges off.It reminds me so much of a CJ (tubed) preamp I owned years ago.Quite a surprise.One is not better than the other,just different. It's easy to tell the difference even with my old ears.No way I could afford a 12k dac,even though I'm curious,but not enough to search one out.
No two most anything ever sound exactly the same but the good news is that it’s getting harder to find a bad sounding DAC these days. It’s more of a personal preference thing. Digital streaming technology overall is very mature these days and the wide range of quality products at all price points reflects that.
On a scale of 1 to 10 speakers are a ten in terms of being able to discern differences. Amplifiers are an 8. DACs are more like a 4-5.
You have received some insightful comments to your question.
My experiences mirror @mikelavigne (i.e., "most dacs are decent"), @czarivey's comments on "voltage output", and @ghdprenticeregarding the presence of "distortion and high frequency trash".
Of the better DACs I have owned and/or auditioned for a time in my own system, they all sounded mostly "acceptable" yet there were indeed differences that in my world typically lean toward the perception of either greater resolution or tonal density. I don't care for what some may characterize as "warmth," as I believe that indicates clouded clarity, probably resulting from distortion. I want clarity that a high S/N provides, but the absence of tonal density and dynamics/impact are deal-breakers for me. I do believe you can mostly have both but you may need to settle just a little on one side or the other and, if the DAC sounds good, you will likely forget about those nuances after owning it for a while. The DACs I like seem to display a rich tonal density and dynamics/power fully across the volume range, i.e., you don't have to chase the volume control to achieve impact and tonal color. My goals are more about getting the midrange and bass right, but the high frequencies need to sound natural without roughness caused by "distortion and high frequency trash" . Clearly, the rest of the system needs to be able to keep up.
IME, there are certainly audible differences that you can notice upon first listening to different DACs. However, in many cases with better DACs, the differences may be subtle so you may need to listen for a while and do some A/B comparisons to pinpoint exactly what the differences are and how they affect your listening enjoyment.
A good friend of mine (and A'goner) did a dac comparo some time ago. A Mytec Brooklyn Bridge, a Chord Cutest and a Bryston BDA-3. The differences were easily discernable particularly on strings and cymbals. The Bryston came out on top as sounding very natural.
Same friend told me about a Wiim dac that was on sale on Amazon $175 because I I was looking for a dac for my garage system. He calls me the next day and says "Don't even open the box, this thing is a piece of $&%*@!" So, its on the way back unopened.
Yes, dacs sound different. I would imagine that once you get to >$10,000 range the differences may come down to preference and not to explicit "better or worse".
I realize your playing in a different realm than I am, but I am curious what was better about the Wadax? To paraphrase Good Fellas...Better, Better How?
Not asking for a detailed answer, just the nickel tour. Thanks
Your hearing is fine. Darko admits that if there are differences, they are very minor. Any sighted testing is going to almost always produce a difference, as it does with everything. Only blind testing is valid to accurately determine if there is a difference in sound.
That’s interesting that you ask this @audiodwebeas I did an experiment just the other day.
My system is a high-end system (Vitus amplification, top of the range Boenicke speakers). I have two identical SOtM sms-200 streamers which I connected back to the switch with identical cables. I then connected each with identical USB cables to two different DACs, one costs $1500 and one $25000. I grouped the two SOtMs on Roon so that my chosen music played simultaneously through both DACs. I attached these to two different amp inputs and volume matched the input, so it became possible to flip between them instantly from the remote, in real time.
Before the start I would flip between inputs at rapid speed so that I had no idea which was playing first. I made notes.
The result was that I could not reliably tell which was playing as they both sounded identical. At one point I was convinced the more expensive one one was flowing more naturally and had the a more realistic timbre of instrument. But when I tested myself I could not reliably pick out the more expensive DAC.
My conclusion is to spend your money elsewhere in the system.
Hey, I already owned an OPPO 205 that you can use with MConnect. I purchased the Ayre QX-5 DAC/ streamer via the network card. I tested them back to back playing all sorts of different songs on Tidal and Qobuz. They sounded different but one was not better than the other. In fact, I liked the little more warmth the OPPO presented. I might try the OPPO 205 against a Lumin P1 or X1. Most of the time I use my BlueSound NODE into a Wired for sound reclocker into the OPPO. It sounds really good and I love using the BS App. My system is pretty resolving so I can hear a difference in components and cables very well.
Hello audiodwebe! Differences between levels of quality are easy to hear. I have several Chinese made DACS with good reviews. The differences among them are subtle. I was able to get a discontinued Sony DAC for half price and it was immediately more relaxing with only a very slight loss of detail. With the Chinese DACS, it was clear that the rear wall of a voncert hall was made of bricks - that's detail! The Sony (I'd like to give you the designation, but I am out of the home due to a flood.) sound was more relaxed, immediately more pleasant and I couldn't telll what the back wall was made of. Who cares?! Beautiful music is what I want to hear and I've got it. I have two versions of the Dragonfly and a German made Dac as wellm and a Furutec DAC in the upstairs studio, a very pleasant sound as well.
Cables are another matter. The match between the cable and the DAC is important. Some folks swear by a certain cable, but your results may differ. My experience is that the Zafino USB cable (from Canada) beats everything else (even the Wireworld Silver Starlight 7, which is very good) in my cable connection. It is not pricey, it is just a quality product. Happy listening.
Nice comparison process between the two DACs. Many posts about equipment here from folks who don't put the effort into actually conducting direct comparisons or listening tests in a manner that reduces inherent biases, and other posts that state opinions as fact without any reference as to how they reached the opinion, so I appreciate hearing about your methods.
I recently compared two DACs literally side-by-side so that I could quickly change the digital input and two output cables and even though the comparison was sighted, my bias did not win out. I could definitely hear differences but the DAC that I wanted to sound better actually didn't to my ears.
Like you, I have not heard many dacs. Started with a Jolida glass dac and it really didn't sound any better than my MacBook. Bought a Bluesound and started streaming with that. Heard a slight improvement to my ears. Then on to a Denafrips Ares II. Night and day difference (for the better!) over the Bluesound. All associated equipment stayed the same. Of course, YMMV in this crazy hobby! I'm content with the Ares for now.
IME, what better (usually more expensive) dacs offer is a sense of realism. They do a much better job of transporting you to the venue. They're simply better at capturing the nuances, emotions, and the soul of the music. Once you hear that in your system, it's hard to go back to a lesser dac.
Other than that, when it comes to the usual suspects -- soundstage, imaging, detail retrieval, etc., most competent DACs have that covered. If that's what you're primarily listening for, then I agree it's hard to tell them apart ... especially, when you're doing quick A/Bs and wearing your analytical hat so to speak.
Of course, the rest of the chain, and very importantly the streamer, has to be revealing enough and synergistic with the dac to really hear what it's capable of.
Agree with arafig, have spent the last month trying 2 new dacs that have been praised by reviewers at their price point. When comparing the two against my yggy OG, Gustard X20, chord 2qute, and a Bitwise Z (which is a vintage sigma delta) using every option available USB, DDC-coax, i2s, AES and streaming with switched optical isolation. I found at first listen difficult to say that any one of them is the clear winner with all music. They all do the expected and some are better at certain things. I like them all for different reasons with different music. The 25 year old Z puts me in the sound stage on some recordings but it is veiled and slow. I still listen to it occasionally and with the right music I am still wowed. I want to be transported to the venue and feel it, not just listen to a hyper detailed reproduction. One piece won't do that, it takes a system. I had a very enjoyable system 50 years ago, the era might have contributed though, sex drugs and rock and roll.
Maybe folks should look these terms up in the dictionary. Differences YES. Important enough to spend money on? Personal but probably.
This I challenge: Even current chip based entry level the differences are barely discernable. About the same level or less than different filters. If one left the room and "reset" their ears for an hour, could you come back in and identify which was which with certainty? I doubt it.
Step up to the next tier. Same challenge. If you can't absolutely every time with different music and different levels, then I propose the difference is not "profound". Valued, preferable, sure. From my first Wolfson to the current entry, yes as the circa 2000 DAC had clear faults in sibilance and edginess. Those problems are surpassed even in $100 entry units. From there, we are splitting hairs.
Too many You-Tube shills shoveling out superlatives that are parroted again and again because no one would watch if they said: " Yup, pretty nice. The end"
Transported to the venue? First that has to be recorded which as far as I know has not been even closely achieved. Magic electronics can't supply information that was not there to start with no matter how expensive your system is. We can try to make it enjoyable. Listen all day and not get fatigued. Get excited by a big crescendo. Feel chill with some nice smooth Jazz. Yea, we can do that.
Joan Baez sounds pretty nice right now through the Qutest. Might like the "green" filter but I was warned they take a long time to burn in. Her voice can get ugly if there is a problem.
WITHOUT PREJUDICE to the trsunsmi of posts affirming that different DACs performance are not clones of each other and certainly can be ranked and improved, I recently traded up from a BRYSTON BDA-2 DAC to a MOON 280D MIND2 DAC because they DO sound different.
It started as a direct bakeoff at my local high-end audio bricks and mortar dealer who sells BRYSTON , MOON (by SIMAUDIO) .and BLUESOUND NODE.product lines.
After two lengthy separate bakeoff visits in their showroom over 10-odd days to personally audition the three models with my BFF audiophile amigo in tow as a foil to compare notes; the dac audio rankings from our witnessed auditions results were clear, unambiguous and wholly consistent among the attendees.
in order:
(1) the MOON DAC was clearly the best of the three agreed by all four attendees.
(2);the BRYSTON DAC was a very fine performer indeed, but it was bested by the MOON in a graphic, clear and not insignificant manner as agreed to by all four attendees..
(3) both high-end dacs above simply crushed the BLUESOUND.NODE …. NOT EVEN CLOSE..
TAKEAWAY
For you or anyone else to capriciously assert we cannot differentiate the audio differences between the dacs -much less consistently- is frankly preposterous and a. grossly flawed assumption …full stop.
I then traded in my BRYSTON for the new MOON as a clear stepped-up performance upgrade.
You must have a verified phone number and physical address in order to post in the Audiogon Forums. Please return to Audiogon.com and complete this step. If you have any questions please contact Support.
