HiFi vs MidFi
What does "Knuckle Dragging Liberal" have to do with this thread? Is this a political rant or a discussion on what budget comprises different levels of audio quality? I have a Mid Fi budget and make the most of it. If I had the disposable income for better equipment, I would buy it. What's wrong with the two of you Reactionary Elitists? Can't wait for the reaction to that labeling. |
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72 Viking. At last I know who tubebuffer is! https://youtu.be/MVL4wKnpx2U?t=51 |
My message keep getting erase. All I say is hifi is hifi. You like fidelity better than normal, it hifi. No need to make all label about low-if mid-fi- than what 3/4 hifi? People constant labeling everyone. When I go to gym and turn all head because I built and can bench and squat and do push jerk power snatch I don’t say other person less, I better, etc. we all do the best we can do. That what I mean about word I can’t use on site because someone get offended like little kid no need to label and make dumb and not good enough fidelity dream. |
They will swear to their almighty guru huckster that $10,000.00 vinyl rigs with $1000.00 vacuum cleaning machines sounds more organic & real than a $1500.00 digital rig despite SNAP CRACKLE POP still clearly dominating the sound..@freediver It might interest you do know that poor high frequency overload margins at the input of the phono section can cause ticks and pops that sound for all the world as if they are on the surface of the LP. If you have a phono section that takes the electrical resonance that is always at the input of a phono section into account, many of the ticks and pops vanish, causing the LP to rival digital in background silence. Most 'midfi' equipment designers simply ignored that resonance (its caused by the inductance of the cartridge in parallel with the capacitance of the tonearm cable; when that peak is activated by the energy of the cartridge, it overloads the input of the phono section briefly); as a result we have an entire generation of audiophiles that think ticks and pops are an epidemic on LP. Its just poor design. In my book, 'midfi' is audio gear that is inexpensive and primarily meant to make money. 'High end audio' on the other hand is driven entirely by intention (and not price, although much of it is expensive). An example of an inexpensive high end audio product was Radio Shack's Pro LX5 loudspeaker, which IIRC sold for about $250.00/pair. Tandy bought out Linaeum just so they could use that tweeter- that's what I mean about intention- its not price. A newer example of intention driving the production of a high end product are the Topping DACs. They are relatively inexpensive but offer pretty impressive performance (and sound) even when compared to DACs costing $$$$s more. Technics came out with their SL1200G turntable (which looks like their old SL1200s, but is an entirely new design). It gives excellent performance for considerably less than $10,000.00. Its a high end product. Technics management includes audiophiles. So while 'midfi' does have a derogatory quality, what you want to look at is the intention behind the product. Does it exist simply to make money, or was it created by people who love music and enjoy what they are doing? This by the way, drives excellent quality no matter what the field. You're far better off going to an attorney that enjoys helping people and working with the law and logic than one that is simply doing it for the money. You have to pay them either way but one will be a lot more competent than the other. |
Thanks atmasphere , your post says it all.... Creative designer know what is High-Fi for sure.... The intention speak through the product and with it..... Price scale are for marketing need only.... The intention for example behind my old Sansui Au 7700 was toward high-End sound at affordable price in 1978 (around 400 Us dollars at the times) I dont think it sound "mid-fi".... But i am not a fool and some new product will beat it on many counts nowadays...But no mid-fi product will beat it easily....I apologize for my example but i know what this amplifier can do and what it cannot.... My best to you.... |
atmasphere-
An example of an inexpensive high end audio product was Radio Shack's Pro LX5 loudspeaker, which IIRC sold for about $250.00/pair. Tandy bought out Linaeum just so they could use that tweeterCool. The sexiest most deep liquid 3D sound stage speaker I ever heard was my Linaeum Model 10 with the Linaeum tweeter. I still have the tweeters by the way (long story). Also I heard those Radio Shack speakers, awfully good for the money! But I did not know the part about Tandy buying them out and always wondered what happened with Linaeum. I was in the guy's basement design studio, in his home, for chrissakes! Now at least I know he made out well. Thanks, Ralph! |
OP’s very first inquiry a couple of weeks ago is: “I’ve narrowed down to the Sonus Faber Olympica 3 vs. Focal Kanta 3. Source is McIntosh 8900 integrated amp. I’ve heard the Focals and loved the seamless soundstage and precision. Going to hear the Olympicas this Friday. These would go in our main den (~300 sqft) for listening to jazz, rock, and country. Thoughts?” Iy looks like you then purchased the Sf’s. Congratulations! A fantastic Hifi set up. I have a NAD C368 and Blusound streamer feeding PS Audio S300 amp and Revel Proforma3 speakers. My system sounds very good to me but I consider it entry level hifi. I think the system you are putting together will be fantastic. |
MidFi vs HiFi has nothing to do with budget, it has to do with the listener. A HiFi listener seeks to get the most enjoyment and best sound he can while the MidFi listener is satisfied with the music as it is and isn't concerned with refining the sound. HiFi is in large part a hobby while MidFi is a utility. |
I read a recently review by a respected audio journalist of an integrated amp in the 6 grand range, upon which he rather effusively heaped praised for virtually every aspect of the product, but he was unable to resist mentioning that while rather excellent, the subject amp didn't sound quite as good as his $26,000.00 D'agostino mono blocks. "Well, excuse me whilst I play the gr-r-r-r-rawnd piano" -Monty Python |
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As an industry lifer since 1973 with more experience in "mid-fi" than I care to admit, I define the term by recognizing the following: Mid-Fi is not made by a brilliant but misunderstood savant designer...it's made by an industrial manufacturer with economies of scale helping to keep cost per unit down. It eschews "boutique" parts like designer capacitors, silver plated wire and Teflon insulation. It performs well enough to comfortably pass conventional performance measurements. It is well designed enough and well finished enough to give the appearance of high quality, at least on the surface. It has an assortment of inputs and outputs to satisfy the needs of a diverse audience that includes most people. These attributes could have been equally met by a Marantz 7/8 or McIntosh C22/MC275 as by a Pioneer or Sansui receiver. If the former were High End, they still met all the mid-fi criteria, just with better sound quality. The modern concept of High End, with its snob appeal, exploded in the mid-70s with the arrival of Mark Levinson's 25W mono-blocks, 4-chassis linestages (2 separate VCs!) Wima caps, LEMO connectors, etc. Gone wer convenience and practicality, affordability was not a concern, and personality cult status for the designer fueled the myth. As Asian made mid-fi brands got more comoditized and glitzy, entry-level high quality audio slipped in to restore original mid-fi values...NAD, Hafler (both Dynaco and his own name-brand), Adcom, Rotel all had their runs. On the other end you had B&O where looks were everything, and Bose where specs were nothing. I could go on... |
I consider my room Mid-Fi and you wouldn't insult me by saying that. I was able to piece together a listening room for ~$12k (PL Evo 400, Rega P6, Dynaudio Evoke 50s, Meridan DAC, Cambridge Audio Duo phono etc.). It mesmerized me when I dropped the needle (or clicked the IPad) the first time. Captured me, my kids, and my friends that visit. Some people would consider this ludicrous money to spend on a "stereo". Here its considered entry level. Do I aspire to Hi-Fi? Absolutely. Do I think there is some snake oil/marketing in it ABSOLUTELY (I have been a part of that). To me its more than about sound. I love this hobby, exploring the science and the art. Pretty comfortable with the size of my d...drivers. |
To me: Hi Fi is a very relative term. It has been co-opted to mean Hi-End. But it simply means a system that puts a great priority on sound reproduction. That’s all. Like Hi-Performance (Hi-Po) in cars, it can mean a Mustang, a Miata or a Miura (Lamborghini). Hi-Fi covers a lot of ground. Anything that sounds pretty good is Hi-Fi. There can be budget components in a Hi-Fi system. It just needs to perform better than an average audio system. Once you buy separate components, you are in Hi-Fi territory. An outboard phono preamp gets you there too. Hi-End is another animal. Some people don’t consider McIntosh in the Hi-End anymore. It is a premium luxury brand for sure. Just like Mercedes is generally considered a premium luxury brand but not really Hi-End. Bugatti is certainly hi-end. Certain Mercedes CAN be. Certain McIntosh CAN be. Hi-End sound at a mid-fi price is possible. Hi-Fi sound at a Mid-Fi price is also possible. If you are on this site, you probably have a Hi-Fi system. I think Hi-End is at the higher end of the premium ladder. |
I think high end is different than hi fi. Hi end is simply expensive, maybe better sonically than lower priced models but not necessarily. Yes I have a Carver 350, high end, high sonically, But my vintage system Soundcraftsmen Pro Power4 and MA 5002 both totally refurbed along with Soundcraftmen dx4000 pre amp, totally refurbed, with Epicure 3.0 truncated pyramids and a highly modded AR es1 (no pops, crackles or static) sound as good to me as many $5000-$10000 systems. I'd be lucky to get $3000 for the system. Yet to me it is High Fi, High sonic but not high end. I play it almost as much as my Carvers with Amazing silvers. As the Bobfather says "just enjoy the music" |
I like the way the movie "It Might Get Loud" sums it up as 3 great musicians are discussing "best" guitar. Jimmy Page and The Edge both had some great high end desires. Jack White just humbly said, "I like to take a piece of sh*t and see how good I can make it sound". Or, something to that effect. For example, I have all different costs but wanted to see how cheap I could go for a great sound. I used a Dayton audio class D integrated, with some inexpensive Dayton Audio full range speakers that I use in a transmission line speaker configuration made from PVC plumbing. For what I spent on this true lowfi, the sound is really darn good. It does have some limitations, such as the listening area is small, don't move outside of it or quality drops quickly. I found the frequency response was below that of my JBL 4312's. Let your ears be the guide and it is amazing what you can come up with. |
Very true about control of room acoustics. However, all else being equal in that dimension: Helped a friend, who had been without home hi-fi for decades, set up a new system for a smallish listening space. $1100 Cambridge streamer/DAC/digital preamp, no TT, no analog preamp, no CD player, no tape deck, Schiit Vidar power amp, great deal at $700, Martin-Logan 60 series tower speakers, high efficiency, equally great deal at $1,000 closeout with dual 8" subwoofers for each channel. Having plenty of surplus quality speaker cables and interconnects, I gifted him those. So we get him set up and he plays Spotify from the Cambridge straight into the Vidar. His family's ears perked up. Never heard reproduced sound like that. Daughter brought her friends over to listen. Wife in kitchen asked for more volume. Clearly hi-fi TO THEM. Well, not to me, and not to 99% of contributors here. Pleasant? Sure. But exchange it for an Aurender streamer, a $1,500+ outboard DAC, play Qobuz not Spotify, add $900 Schiit tube preamp or just 6SN7 tube buffer, add bass array or just upgrade to Legacy towers with 10" or 12" dual subs, and he would have an order of magnitude superior SQ with clear & convincing low bass. To me, a fine example of taking lower-fi to higher-fi, not relative to some absolute standard of fidelity levels, but simply relative to each other. Spend more, get more and you're still coming in at $15,000 range, which is peanuts in Agon's rarefied air, and which friend could easily afford if he cared enough. |
I think of mid fi as more mass produced - assembly line ish and hifi as typically sold through audio (primarily) dealers produced in lower quantities. That's not to say it is impossible to get hifi (high quality) in mass produced (or more highly produced) brands, but the snob appeal of some of the audio "salons" prevents them from carrying them. |
Nobody could believe, even me at first, that an under 500 bucks system could be "near" Hi-FI than most other costly system under 10,000 bucks or even more... It is.... Atmasphere said it right, it is the "intention" of the designer that create Hi-FI or possible audiophile experience...There is a difference between craftmanship of a designber and an industrial process... Then sure it takes first some gear with this intentions’s designer BEHIND it...We must first buy some good gear from a designer... If you have it, even at low price, for example a vintage Sansui amplifier in their golden era, or the best Mission speakers created, it is acoustic science that will give you the most important part of the S.Q. even at low price like for myself... Then money is not the main meter of Hi-FI scale but the ears and acoustic science are.... |
Some good comments esp C Miller. I don’t always agree with his voicing but his hard core reaching for the top isn’t disingenuous. Everyone tends to recommend their stuff, until they move on! “Mid” means in the middle. Not low, not high I once saw some graffiti that said “Let go of my big toe, I want to dance my life away.” That’s the quest here. Too bad about all the elbow jabs. |
Mid-Fi: A largely meaningless, murky term. It means “less than hi-fi,” but sometimes that's again indicative of personal preference. It's one thing to use this to describe overt sound quality flaws…but more often it's used as a personal insult, especially on forums. (I did not write this definition, but I agree with it) |
LoFi - hear everything gets nothing😁 Acoustic science treatment and control: get anything in lo-mid-or Hi at the square power....Even get something from nothing...Get some bass not only highs... Get more than everything because S.Q. is not highs or bass added together ...It is imaging/soundstage/timbre spectrum field done right/listener envelopmenmt/ relative source width.... 😊 |
HIFI is defiantly different than MidFi. I lived with MidFi for years good but never great. Once you lived with HIFI you know the difference. I relate it to once you've see a photo taken with a superior lens the clarity and depth and colors are so much improved you can then on instantly tell an inferior photo when previously you hadn't noticed the flaws. The same goes with HIFI once you experience it you'll know the difference. |
mahgister, not doubting your claims re totality of listening experience, but surely you would agree that some components achieve better resolution than others, that some move more air than others, and that these differences are audible?Yes you are completely right....There is a difference between A Sansui Amplifier of the golden Era and many other amplifier not so well designed for example... My point is ONLY that acoustic control and treatment, if they NEVER coud replace the NECESSITY for good designed produts by themselves, will anyway by themselves give you this 50 % of the S.Q. that NO GEAR could do by itself alone....( This % is a "metaphor" conveying my message not a measurable fact but this % mirror my own experience ) Acoustic is the queen and the working gear are the 7 little working dwarves... |
So HIFI poisoned Snow White? I’m so confusedIn a way "sometimes" yes.... when Hi-FI is associated with hype and money in place of the necessary acoustic solutions yes.... Thanks for your enlightened confusion.... High-Fi or Hi-End + acoustic = audio experience The best high-end in the world is not complete without acoustic, without a room designed for it... |
Maybe you didn't see my earlier post. Defiantly not about expense. http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews2/caintuck/2.html Prices have gone up since this post but they still exist. I believe that everything matters even the blue birds |
I’d like to take deep breath, pause for a moment and acknowledge this thing called “midfi”. “Midfi” is, by definition, an upgrade over “lowfi”, which is itself an upgrade over “nofi”. A lot of us began this journey with “nofi” and were introduced to something at some point that played music. In our family’s case it was one of those units with fold down record player and speakers on hinges that could be detached for “better stereo separation.” Later on, we may have been introduced to a larger version of a “console stereo” that played louder, until which time the revelation of “stereo components” came into view. We’d sit there between those speakers with fret wood grilles, mesmerized by those blue indicators on the receiver as we lowered the tonearm and raced back to our seats before the music started. Then, it was hifi heaven. We could feel the bass. The sound magically panned from the left speaker to the right speaker and we were enamored with the effects. Acoustic instruments got up close and personal. Vocals were intimate and emotionally charged. We didn’t know what staging was. And didn’t care. Or black backgrounds. Or micro dynamics. Our idea of “balance” was putting a smiley face on that 10-band equalizer, or mess with it long enough to deliver what we defined as our personal preferences. If we wanted to look (and, feel) sophisticated, we’d tap down some Borkum Riff tobacco in our pipes and assume the “critical listening” position while engaging in some not-so-critical listening.
Then, it happened. Some event resulted in high(er) resolution audio right there in front of us. I my case it was in the “high end” shop in the city I grew up in. Mac amp/preamp and ESS AMT1s playing Blood Sweat and Tears. I couldn’t easily describe what was different. It was just much clearer than my system. Tighter. More engaging. I just knew I enjoyed the sound and wanted my experience at home to more like what I had just heard. I didn’t appreciate my system at home any less. In fact, I grew even fonder of the system realizing just how far it had taken me from the “nofi” days.
The makers of the “mifi gear” were not (and are currently not) stupid. They realized that the majority of consumers were not “audio purists” and wanted a balance of functionality (tone controls, dual tape monitors, speaker selectors) and pleasing esthetics (wooden cases, backlit dials, brushed aluminum faceplates, meters). They also understood the basic math that building “separates” (amp, preamp and tuner) with 3 separate chassis, power cords, cartons, packing, owner’s manuals, service manuals, and shipping would exponentially increase the cost over a single chassis “receiver” thus making “mifi” unreachable for the majority of consumers. The “mifi” package was, and still is, very appealing in that it touches on many needs, and budgets, but most importantly, creates an integral path from “nofi” tor “lowfi” into “hifi”.
I was one of the lucky souls whose hobby tuned into a career. Our offerings started at $300 shelf systems and topped out about $80k for a 2-channel music system. There was always a “value proposition” involved. Many times, “intangibles” consumed a large chunk of the budget. In our Bang & Olufsen days, I’d carefully instruct the customer that ½ of their budget was going to be spent on esthetics. While B&O audio performance placed it clearing in the “midfi” range, in my opinion, the “cool factor” or having a piece of Danish art in their home was worth the price of admission for some. And there were those willing to put a brown paper bag to cover up their homely gear when not in use as long as it sounded good – and they weren’t paying a nickel for anything that wasn’t related to sound quality. We can extend this into additional indulgences in our lives where “other factors” other than all-out-bang-for-the-buck performance as prime motivators of our decision making. If this were true, we’d all be driving supercharged fox-bodied Mustangs (straight line acceleration) or auto-cross prepared Miatas (twists and turns). Yes, we have to get the darned groceries. Commute to work. Take the dog to the vet. And haul the occasional passenger. So, we opt for reliable “consumer” transportation with USB ports, NAV systems, and heated seats. Yes, we are willing to pay for other things outside of raw performance.
There was a point in our lives where “mifi” was not just “good enough”, it was the <insert expletive!!!> It was the entrance ramp for this “work in progress” of building high resolution audio systems for listening to recorded music at home. It had the power to place us there alongside 500,000 other peace-loving people on a farm in New York state. It had the power resurrect the energy and presence of deceased musicians in our living rooms. And, for many the power of “midfi” is still powerful today. There’s a term “you don’t know what you don’t know.” They just don’t know how miserable they should be with their purchases.
So, I propose a toast to all the “mifi” manufacturers and products that brought us where we are today. Without “midfi” we wouldn’t have gotten to “hifi”. Midfi = mid-priced/mid performance. Let’s all grab a bottle/glass of mid-priced/mid performance beer/wine/other and celebrate one of the best friends we’ve ever had. Cheers! |
So, I propose a toast to all the “mifi” manufacturers and products that brought us where we are today. Without “midfi” we wouldn’t have gotten to “hifi”. Midfi = mid-priced/mid performance. Let’s all grab a bottle/glass of mid-priced/mid performance beer/wine/other and celebrate one of the best friends we’ve ever had.Great post! thanks I will only add that mid-fi gear + acoustic control is almost or near Hi-Fi if it is not there... High end gear minus acoustic control and without room treatment is sometimes "Worst-Fi" or at best fatiguing and in the best case very under his potential S.Q..... |
