MidFi is a derogatory term used by those with so called golden ears & deep pockets who refuse to admit that the performance gap between overpriced gear & affordable gear is almost non existent these days & that the law of diminishing returns starts at about $1000.00..They will swear to their almighty guru huckster that $10,000.00 vinyl rigs with $1000.00 vacuum cleaning machines sounds more organic & real than a $1500.00 digital rig despite SNAP CRACKLE POP still clearly dominating the sound..The term should die a horrible death along with the more $ = better sound mentality...
HiFi vs MidFi
I’m a relative noob to the audiophile scene, having just invested in an integrated amp and upscale (for me) speakers. From time to time, I hear the term “MidFi” for some components. Is there an objective or just largely accepted definition for this term? I’d be curious to hear feedback on what constitutes HiFi vs. MidFi across various components.
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MidFi is just code for the lower end of HiFi. Hardly anyone uses it any more since it came to be regarded as a sort of mild put down when all it really means is budget. But everyone is on a budget, just different amounts, so it never really made any sense no matter how you look at it. If you read a book like Robert Harley's The Complete Guide to High End Audio (highly recommended) you will learn that what really differentiates the High End from other home electronics is nothing to do with price or exclusivity or anything like that. The key to being High End is the whole focus of High End audio is sound quality. Not features, not looks, sound quality. Making music sound so good you want to stop everything and sit down and enjoy just listening to the music. This is High End audio. Yes there definitely are huge differences in sound quality and yes the very best does cost more. But that doesn't mean you can't build a really impressively satisfying music system on a modest budget. I have done it. Lots of us have. I wouldn't think to call the $1200 systems I made mid-fi. To be honest, the term HiFi isn't always all that complimentary. There are people who like the HiFi sound, and they will spend a fortune on their Mark Levinson, Wilson, etc and maybe even be happy. That should never stop you from thoroughly enjoying whatever it is you thoroughly enjoy, whether someone calls it LoFi, MidFi, HiFi, or NoFi. So if you hear those terms just take it as this is their way of telling you how good they think it is relative to other stuff. This is all relative anyway so don't try and read too much into it. |
Acoustic could make every relatively good system Hi-Fi... Or almost....Whatever the price.... The reverse is true.... High cost system badly embedded especially acoustically may sound if not bad not at all at their potential peak... Mid-Fi is a qualification motivated by gear sellers not acoustician.... And yes millercarbon is right : This is High End audio. Yes there definitely are huge differences in sound quality and yes the very best does cost more. But that doesn't mean you can't build a really impressively satisfying music system on a modest budget. I have done it. Lots of us have. I wouldn't think to call the $1200 systems I made mid-fi. |
mid fi as a term is derogatory, for sure but i have perhaps unwelcome news for those who think the law of diminishing returns kicks in at a grand, you are very very very wrong if people know what they are doing, and have a workable room, immediately noticeable, better sounding systems result from more $ spent, well into 5 and 6 figures you don’t need golden ears, just functional normal hearing and a decent appreciation for music |
There is always better system... The problem is not about the best system.... It is easy to buy one with the money... The problem is how did i create one which is nearer than someone could think to the best system in the world at no cost.... It is not a question about diminishing returns... It is a question about acoustic embeddings controls... Not merely passive treatment....active controls... 50% of the positive or negative S.Q. of a system come with the acoustic control or his lack of ... But people are mentally programmed by the engineering industry not by acoustician.... Saying that higher cost can afford truly better S.Q. is common place fact and trivial.... What is less trivial and less common place is knowing how much acoustic can optimize and contribute to the S.Q. of ANY system .... My system value is under 500 bucks all in all... I listen to a million bucks system in a video on youtube and even through my system i can decipher why it was so bad because lacking acoustical control.... Incredible... But put a million bucks system sometimes in a bad room with no visible acoustic control and it could be atrociously fatiguing and repulsive even through my no fatiguing system.... I also listened to an asian owner with a million bucks system which was like a refined audio musical heaven.... Thanks to his marvellous visible acoustic control contributing for at least 50 % i am sure of that....His system for sure was audibly better than mine and more refined...But wai mine cost 500 bucks versus one million bucks...I think that this asian guy will stumble from his chair listening mine...Way less good than his but wait.....Not bad for 500 bucks....😊 I will not be surprized myself at all listening his better one....He will be surprized listening a lesser one....This is not diminushing return law it is acoustic laws... I live very well with my under 500 bucks system acoustically well controlled...i smile if i listen anything better...You know why? Mine is not so much behind at a cost near zero.... Then between all system there exist difference in quality , it is not debatable... It is a common place... But thinking that upgrading a piece of gear to a costly one give an Hi-FI experience is pure ignorance of at least acoustic.... By the way my acoustic treatment and active devices cost me nothing.... |
@bigtex22 I strive for a mid-fi system. I have a $7K preamp and a $700 preamp. I am listening to the $700 preamp now. If it were not for an impedance mis-match (likely issue) with my $700 preamp and my chosen amp the $7K preamp gets sold. My goal of striving for mid-fi fails in this instance. Use your ears and buy what you can afford and makes you happy. An interesting take. SoundStage! Solo | SoundStageSolo.com - What Playing Music Taught Me About Audio |
mid fi is more a state of mind. some objectivitists poh poh the idea that some gear sounds better than other gear. their engineering professor said that’s the way it is, and so that’s gospel. any perception of better sound is delusional, and not worth paying for. the worst one’s feel a need to ’fix’ wayward audiophiles desiring the highest fidelity. to them it’s all mid-fi. mid-fi can also just be a casual view toward music reproduction quality, or even a true disregard for music reproduction quality. sound is sound. they just don’t care. high fidelity is also a state of mind, where the quality of the music reproduction matters. there is a consciousness of the idea of pursuit of a more real music reproduction experience. combined with a desire on some levels to listen and appreciate music and better sound. my personal view is that any association of particular gear and mid fi misses the point. to someone it could be high fi. people can travel from one state of mind above to another state of mind. they can be awakened, to realize that better sound is worth pursuing. systems are mid fi or hi fi based on the intentions of the owner of the system. not the performance or investment.....since it’s all relative. |
I like the way that Mike put it, that resonates most with me. While it's true that sometimes expensive pieces sound like pieces of doo-doo, it's a fallacy to think that there's not much difference between your system and that of someone that has invested an order of magnitude in their system. Not just money, but research, time, and effort. If your mind and ears aren't open to that reality, then you have a "mid-fi" outlook. |
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as usual @mikelavigne speaks wisely to the heart of the matter in this case, @millercarbon as well i agree wholeheartedly with the key points of 'state of mind', and the idea that real hifi can/does exist at modest price points... one just needs the passion, knowledge, expended effort to bring the pieces together |
+1 for @mikelavigne @jjss49 millercarbon , @jjss49 "Mid-fi" is meaningless? Just a put down? Give me a break. The term "mid-fi" has a clear, useful, and non-derogatory meaning. It indicates that a piece of gear or room treatment or combination has pressed beyond the ordinary bad situation (tubby bass, over-bright, echoing, etc.) and achieved some of what audiophiles strive for. But existing accomplishments can be improved, and missing ones can be added. And flaws can be eliminated. My Adcom 535L and RTP 400 are perfect examples of mid-fi. Decent bass, soundstage, mids, mediocre highs. They are better but still middling/mid-fi: way better than my old Yamaha receiver but leagues behind my current tube gear, R2R, etc. Plus all my room treatments. Mid fi comprises gear and room yielding an audio experience *on the way* to hi-fi. Could there be an easier concept to grasp and accept? And, I agree with jjss49 that the notion this can be accomplished for peanuts is delusory. Bless the person who can live in a shack and call it a castle, but... |
And, I agree with jjss49 that the notion this can be accomplished for peanuts is delusory. Bless the person who can live in a shack and call it a castle, but...It could.... Nobody called my Shack a deceptive castle....😁😊 But anyway most people dont knows by experience it seems that the difference in S.Q. between MOST relatively good gear most of the times are exceeded by the powerful S.Q. impact and effect in the way the room is designed and controlled acoustically to adapt and enhance TO AND FOR a specific audio system... Then i am bless 2 times... It cost me nothing... and it is real Hi-FI in my "schack" .... Mid-fi is a name invented by gear marketting sellers... No acoustician use it.... |
The answer as to what constitutes Mid-Fi versus Hi-Fi is predicated upon the habitus of the audiophile. The average person thinks that lower end rigs are higher than they are. The person with a tremendous amount of system building experience knows far better the true spectrum of performance. Calling the designations Mid-Fi or Hi-Fi states of mind/attitude is, imo, unproductive in making a clear judgment. There are clear distinctions in performance; if you don't agree, feel free to revert to your computer monitor's built in speakers. As someone who was a budget audiophile for many years, but in the past 14 was reviewed and built hundreds of rigs from approx. $10-100K, my range would be about like this: $2-3K MSRP Mid-Fi $5-10K MSRP lower end Hi-Fi $10-40K MSRP midlle HiFi $40K+ MSRP various shadings of upper end HiFi I am not interested in arguing over or debating my assessment. :) |
I am not interested in arguing over or debating my assessment. :) Like a good sellers who dont want his price scale contested in any way.... Comical.... There is no scale high end price for guidance in acoustic experience.... Differences between 2 relatively good but different amplifier, even between speakers, are most of the times in most of the cases, save for extreme difference in cost and engineering in some particular case, less important generally than the change from an acoustically uncontrolled room to a controlled room designed for a specific type of speakers and system... If you dont know that, you only are a seller....Anyway not an acoustician.... I apologize for being "rude".... But it is an audio thread and truth matter more than price scale association with sellers tags practice.... |
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews2/caintuck/2.html Prices have gone up since this post but they still exist. |
Differences between 2 relatively good but different amplifier, even between speakers, are most of the times in most of the cases, save for extreme difference in cost and engineering in some particular case, less important generally than the change from an acoustically uncontrolled room to a controlled room designed for a specific type of speakers and system... "Most of the times in most of the cases..." -- for the ignorant. But this is a forum of audiophiles who, um, haver heard about the importance of room acoustics, ok? And yeah, I think Doug knows all that stuff about how important the room is AND he knows that better gear is the other half of the equation. So do a lot of others. |
And yeah, I think Doug knows all that stuff about how important the room is AND he knows that better gear is the other half of the equation. So do a lot of others. My point is about what could help us to create an Hi-FI experience without investing big money... Many here says it is impossible at low cost...Mr. Schroeder say so....It is generally false...Save for extremely costly and rightfully embedded exceptional system...Then establishing a price tag scales common place characterisation is not the way to go.... And repeating common place facts about price tags has no meaning in acoustic experience... Is a Bernning ZOTL amplifier costing 6000 dollars is less good than a 100,000 dollars amplifier? it depend of the other gear equipment but mostly also of the way the room acoustic will be coupled to the particularities of the system... I will then let acoustic experience decide not price tag common place facts... And dont appeal to Audio forum knowledge against my point... My experience teach me already that most audiophile trust more price tag than acoustic science sorry.... I dont doubt a second the vast knowlewdge about gear of Mr. Schroeder... I doubt his general attitude of underestimating the essential in audio: acoustic experience.... Selling superior gear is not the same thing that giving advices about HOW to create Hi-Fi experience in our own room...Especially when the advices has no or very low cost to be implemented... By the way acoustic science is not sinonymus with only buying costly passive material branded name treatment... It is also designing active control devices specifically coupled to a specific speaker characteristic...This fact only is unbeknownst to most here....I know it, because i create one for myself....No one here teach me how to do it ....With discarded junk material... Anyway acoustician dont listen price tags advice but sound.... |
"Most of the times in most of the cases..." -- for the ignorant. But this is a forum of audiophiles who, um, haver heard about the importance of room acoustics, ok?i forgot to say that your post is a bit "haughty"... When i spoke using this expression ( most of the times in most of the cases) i spoke to and for most people here constrained by budget limitation first, way more than by their alleged ignorance of price tags scale... I was speaking to normal people here not to audiophile snobs... And for sure all people here know that acoustic is important .... But this does not erase the fact that they UNDERESTIMATED it completely in relation to gear price tag precisely because of marketing practice and reviewers encompassing all audio thread with their own "price tagging " scale, which scale evaluation is not debatable if i pick to Mr. Schroeder his own words .... Everybody here knows or is supposed to know also the importance of mechanical vibrations controls, and decreasing the noise floor level of the electrical grid of the house...But this does not erase the fact that this fundamental embeddings control necessary to reach Hi-Fi experience are also UNDERESTIMATED and called in a misleading way by most people here and in particular by reviewers : " tweaks"; that is to say secondary artefact in relation to the possible HiFi high end gear supreme experience... I debate this artificial snobbery about gear to insis on mechanical, electrical and acoustical controls, to be the way to audiophile experience for most... Then you mis-interpret my post for the business of criticizing me....Like usual ... |
I’m not nearly as educated or experienced in the audiophile world as most of the people on this site, but every time I went up a level in quality and cost of the component (turntable, cartridge, speakers, amps, preamps, cables, etc.) I purchased the sound has gotten much better. That doesn’t mean the systems I started off with were terrible because they weren’t expensive. It just means the sound has gotten better to my ears as I acquired better system components. Maybe there is some internal confirmation bias there to justify what I purchased. That is always a possibility. |
Since I just posted in the thread here about why people don’t use CRT TVs anymore and the huge price I sold my Sony tube for, I’ll continue with a video analogy. In the color grading world of video, we have to make color shift changes very quickly, or look away for a bit as our eyes self color balance. Look at an image shot too orange for a couple of minutes and our brain sees it as much closer to neutral. I think our hearing may work the same way. We adjust our hearing/interpretation to represent what we’re supposed to be hearing. I was away from home for a year during 2020 due to covid and wanted to set up a small modestly priced system to enjoy, even though there was a crappy old stereo there. I ended up with a used Hegel H190 all in one unit, a house brand bookshelf speaker Underwood audio sells direct (a very good value at $2500), pair of their Diamond cables and an very old used Furman ref 15 conditioner, and a $120 AQ power cable from bestbuy. I was streaming Qobuz via Ethernet converted to WAV. Even though the speakers had gotten very good reviews, were touted as a Joseph audio Pulsar beater, and had a beryllium/copper tweeter (I still have no idea what that really means) the system wasn’t great. I couldn’t treat the room except to control first reflection points, but did have them 4 feet or so from rear wall, which was a must for me. Finally my GF came to visit me and she brought my EtherRegen isolator from home. The system got quite a bit better, and then I started playing with putting weights on the 25lb speakers which I thought finally made them provide a slice of high end sound. I was pretty pleased With the little $8k (or so retail) system I had put together. When I finally returned home and played some of the same tracks, I realized that while that modest system certainly made noise and provided enjoyment, my ear had adapted and fooled me into thinking I was hearing something that I wasn’t. |
Sorry. I forgot you were the champion of "the people."I never claim to be the " champion of the people" like your exhausted irony put it on my way in your distorted manner... Remember of what we were spoken about? The possibility to attain Hi-fi experience at low cost OR NOT...Most people can if they know HOW...this is my point... Some sellers say here that it takes much and more money than much.... Simple... Spare your irony and try to understand.... |
I always thought it a slang term to include brands like Rotel, NAD, Cambridge, etc. as well as entry-level lines from larger manufacturers. Like what is (very generally) found on audioadvisor. I have heard the term used in a conceited manner but find the idea of judging others’ equipment to be weird and more about consumerism than audio. |
freediver936 posts10-15-2021 8:57pmMidFi is a derogatory term used by those with so called golden ears & deep pockets who refuse to admit that the performance gap between overpriced gear & affordable gear is almost non existent these days & that the law of diminishing returns starts at about $1000.00..They will swear to their almighty guru huckster that $10,000.00 vinyl rigs with $1000.00 vacuum cleaning machines sounds more organic & real than a $1500.00 digital rig despite SNAP CRACKLE POP still clearly dominating the sound..The term should die a horrible death along with the more $ = better sound mentality... ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ WOW thats some straight shooting. have to 100% agree. Although I like Jadis as a preferenc, I could use any Dynaco ST70, and get near same sound. I bought all Jadis used and found out high priced components olike ARC, and all others are hyped. My digital system captures almost same sonics as a $100K vinyl system. Speakers is where its all at. And again, the more you spend does not equate into superior sound. This science is not about money. Its how a speaker actually sounds, regardless if the speaker comes from a popular famous lab. The one component that is hyped more than all others combined are the speaker component. I find most speakers midfi >> low fi >>>complete total fatigue. |
Take the world finest amps/digital (Jadis' $$$$$$$$$ DACs/Drives) /Phonos /linestage/preamps. Hook these components to any midfi speaker,,take your pick...and what ya got? Midfi sound. Now take a super HIFI (like I have) speaker and hook it up to a Sony system, cd player/receiver, and ya got hifi. I've tested this out folks. Not saying nuances in the all jadis system are not there,, indeed there are stunning nuances. but the real hifidelity is inside the speakers. No 2 speakers sound alike, All tube amps, pretty much sound the same to my ears. |
but the real hifidelity is inside the speakers.And the acoustic control of a room count for nothing? All tube amp sound the same? Ridiculous... an Atmasphere tube amplifier, a garage 1217 tube amplifier and a Berning ZOTL are the same for your ears? No gear sound the same at all.... Be it speakers, dac, amplifiers... Acoustic treatment and control designed for a specific speakers/system are the way to hifi....Not the gear in itself by itself alone....Electrical and mechanical controls are also mandatory... Pick the speaker you want and associate it with the right gear and put it in a controlled room designed specifically for it and you will have Hi-FI... Obsession with speakers or any type of gear is only that, obsession... This is right if you are an audio engineer this is called passion.... But to reach hi-fi we must know elementary acoustic and elementary mechanical and electrical facts for a rightful embeddings of the gear /system we choose... There is no best amplifier, or best dac or best speakers.... Only different needs and trade-off.... |
@hilde45 when i scan replies to a given post, there are some usernames -- once i see them, i simply keep the page scrolling right past the jibberish, don’t even read em anymore remember the old dilbert comic strips? "blah blah blah blah blah blah room treatment" ... and so on good for our sanity and positive attitude to treat those similarly, i think 🙉 |
Even retailers realize there’s a difference, look at Best Buy for example… Mid Fi product is on the shelves for anyone to pick up and bring to the register in their audio portion of the store, displays usually covered in finger smears, not hooked up to anything, many times missing knobs, etc., and to some people that is their Hi-Fi. What Best Buy considers Hi-Fi is located in their Magnolia Section…. not much help there either or hooked up but certainly better grade product than what’s in their so called audio department. My opinion as well is, Mid-Fi product you can grab off the shelf, no real technical assistance provided other than asking you if you’d like to take out the store’s credit card, etc., and to some people, yes it’s their Hi-Fi. Heck, I know people who think because they dropped $1500.00 on a Bose set up that they’re in heaven… Hey good for them. Myself, I prefer steak over hamburger. I’ve heard those systems at friends and relative’s homes and while there enjoyed them as well while hearing them brag about their set ups. It’s kinda of like going to Olive Garden and expecting Italian food like your going to be served at true family owed Italian restaurant in Milan. Can Mid-Fi work?… Yes and we’re all guilty of once in a while grabbing a fast food burger. Hi-Fi to me is product not mass marketed where product design is not affected by how it’s sale will affect the company’s stock price, where decisions on product design are not made in the board room, it’s more about the passion of the company’s owners and employees. Maybe they only produce few hundred units a year, quality over quantity, where I could call and the owner’s themselves could possibly answer the phone and answer my technical inquires, where I’d get immediate replies to emails, etc. Hi-fi is more than just the sound, it’s the company’s who’s product you’ve purchased vetted their dealers, and not just created a step up line of products jammed with options and crazy displays to create a one size fits all type of product. Hi-Fi owners usually have higher expectations with specific goals in mind that can only be obtained with higher grade equipment and supported with more technically knowledgeable sales and support staffs with similar mindsets and not an inexperienced customer service agent reading off cue card scripts. I have numerous set ups in various rooms and consider parts of my systems Mid Fi and other parts of my system Hi-Fi. There is a difference but enjoy them all. I just wish the hard core guys on this site would provide more guidance in this hobby with their experience of higher grade products to the Mid Fi’ers who now would like to move up to Hi-Fi rather than see it as an opportunity to tell people their set ups are crap. You have to walk before you can run, you have find what you like and build from there. Growth is best achieved if mentored and keep in mind, most manufacturers believe due to technology taking it’s toll on this industry, component audio is a dying market, so by scaring away newbies rather than encouraging it’s growth hurts us all who enjoy this hobby in the long run. |
Seems the consensus is big audio budget does not equate to **far superior* sound. Got it. But we all have to at least admist, there are *Nuances* to gain in one component vs another. Although I did state all tube amps pretty much sound the same, well I said **pretty much** I never said equal. Some tube amps voice ever so slightly dif from the next. My Shanling CD300 was indeed a nuance superior to my cayin CD player,, The Jadis DAC with Mundorf caps and high tgech Class A JFET opamps/Tele AU’s, is a nuance superior to the Shanling. Point is I could be very well happy witha 1960;s Dynaco ST70 stock original caps (no botique Mundorf caps) vs my Jadis Defy7/Mundorf/Takman resistos/Teles, as the 2 sounded pretty much the same in my ..here’s the clinger.. ’classiacl music. As we all know classical muisc engineers were hit and miss, Sure some DG engineers had great success, Some Philips/EMI and most other labels have issues in the recording quality. The one musical genre where I do feel, if you can afford Jadis’ line, is in jazz music. Jazz recordings will pick up the nuances quite well. But for classical , nah, it makes no sense spending big cash on hi fidelity components. I did say *high fidelity* , nuances all add up. When you pilea bunch of nuances all together in one big pile,, now you really got something going,, For jazz. In classical, really a Sony CD player, Dynaco ST70 1960s/stock caps BUT with Teles,, and a hifi WBer,, now thats as about all the hifi you are going to get. But IF I can afford the Jadis CD player at $12K,,yeah I’m going to get it. Is it 12K better than the Sony in classical music,, most likely just a nuance, nada mas. I could be wrong as I’ve not tested a Sony vs Jadis’ 12K player. Just know I had bought ( My Cayin was having Mundorf caps installed, need a temmp player) a used Yamaha 6 cd player with the rotating plate thing and was surprised it sound **almost** as good as the Cayin CD17 with some Mundorf Caps. Its the chase of high price speakers that puzzels me most. Most have issues and this disqualifies them for being taged *High Fidelity*. Here are the following amps I heard that brought me to the conclusion all tube amps sound **pretty much** the same Dynaco ST70 modded SET DIY with Colbalt trans/ uses a 50 tube Allen Organ amps with KT120;s Cayin 35 amp , the lillte guy with EL34’s($800) Jadis Defy7. Any of these amplifiers would work just fine in my classical **NOT hifi* recordings. If we are considering jazz, again,, any one would work just fine. Its the speakers that make jazz music either hifi, mid fi low fi, or just plain muddy/colored/fatiguing. |
@mozartfan I concur. Classical is not drastically improved by hi-fi as some other genres. I am not a jazz afficionado so I have to few records of the genre to really speak of that. BUT, I do love any kind of prog music, alt-prog, prog rock, prog metal and with hundreds of records in the genre, there is no doubt that hi-fi can be a huge plus for it. For electronic music too. Long live diversity :) |
Mindset of the both buyer and manufacturer are at the heart of the matter. Hifi usually has most of the energy focused on the best sound quality at the price point at the expense of fancy looks and bells & whistle features. Marketing by small companies often started in garages/basements is often an afterthought or minimal. Customers who identify as early adopters are attracted, and yes some go too far pushing snobbery and "insider knowledge" vibes that alienate others who are "hifi-curious". Big Midfi brands marketing budgets contribute to their cost. Casual recognition of those brands by non-enthusiasts and big box distribution helps close the deal with the low-engagement customer. Manufs. compensate partially with large scale savings, but design decisions driven by committee, often result in sonic tradeoffs. IMHO, price contributes but isn't the key. Their are tons of lower cost items designed and sold with noble sonic goals and achievement; DIY and kits included! At the more limited end of the financial spectrum themes of "punching above their weight class" and "diminishing returns" are common and relevant. Years ago, I sold Sony, Bose and Onkyo at retail to pay for college. Many low engagement customers were happy. Then I went home and listened to music on my ugly green NAD amp and my tiny Mission monitors with grills removed and blu-tacked to cinderblock stands...and I was happy. Cheers, Spencer |
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Allow me make it simple. Same knuckle dragging liberal that try to create all division in family and steal all money make these terms. The devil has these people and my wish they wake up and see humanity trying to live higher aspiration not create so much division. Enjoy music the..............yea that made it real simple? |
