HiFi vs MidFi
whizzers allow for a wider soundstage.It is the horrible decay and overhang that they have that is the problem. They create issues that you clearly can't hear, or you don't understand what you are hearing. First you daid this: My WBers have zero distortion = zero fatigue. Then you said this in reply to another member: All speakers distort, they are the weakest link in the chain.I know you don't understand, but those two statements are in conflict with each other. Its a known fact super tweeters/horn tweets have sibilance.You are remarkable in the sheer number of "facts" you can get wrong. Classical music does not need the 15khz=50khz super tweet range.You do realize that sibilance is well below this range, right? Then again, no you don't realize it. http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/Design_criteria.htm It is clear you don't understand what he is saying. |
I get it, you don't have a lot of money. You want to believe you have found the Holy Grail and beaten everyone for very cheap. Sorry, but it just isn't true. If you like your system, great. Your videos are not convincing anyone that you have good sound. Quite the opposite, in fact. If what you have shown on video is the best possible, the bar is much, much lower than I thought. |
I know you don't understand, but those two statements are in conflict with each other.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Obvioulsy if I stated *My WBer has no such weakness** Would undermine everything I am saying in support of WBers as not only the **Ideal* speaker, but really honestly, truthfull (no snakeoil) WBers is the speaker by choice, the ultimate listening experience. Zero, near zero, a miniscule factor, all mean same thing. xover low sens all have coloration, distortion, fatigue which is noticable. My 2 tech geeks love their vintage stacks. They hear no such coloration. They do not get fatigued by their Acoustic Research AR3's, 1973, Philips 2 ways, 10 inch woofer, Radio Shak Nova 7's. They love their Vintage stacks. There ya go, they can live with this paper sound. Soory I can't I've since moved on to magnesium in the Seas and some sort of wooden cone in the DavidLouis. The magnesium cones are extremely well behaved and have no resonances below 1800hz. The wood cone has excellent voice characterists. IOW neutral, which is what makes high fi, fatigue free listening. Follow? Look, I ain;t backing down. You are taking my ideas out of context, due to your stubborn refusal to accept the inherent limitations of xover style speakers, low db sens being the most obvious curse of this design. If Troels was on this discussion, he'd at least agree with some of my ideas. Whereas you simply enjoy twisting and distorting what I am GETTING at. Just answer the Q. Do xover types have critical issues in the 2khz-3khz band width? Its either Yes or No Not holding my breath for your answer thats for sure |
the opposite, in fact. If what you have shown on video is the best possible, the bar is much, much lower than I thought ~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Mahvishnu came through aweful I admit, was trying to get Billy Cobham drum sets on the vid. Sophie Milman, Diana Krall sounds quite accurate viia the Sony cam. I hear true fidelity in my uploads of both. Which is why I plant the mic right up to both Wbers, so you get a real impression of the quality of the speaker. Its there, you can say *i do not hear fidelity* Its there. All my cash went into upgrading my Thors, My teck says **well since you have new Mundorf $$$ xovers, lets ck your Millennium tweeters,,,ohh look one tweeter is off 1/2 ohm, better buy new ones,,** So I did, gave the **old* ones away and bought new @ $750....absoluely zero gain, old = new, = waste of $750. + waste of tweeter Mundorf xovers = big $ loss. Yeah I’m upset for that fiasco. This loss , 1 yr ago is holding back my WBer Speaker Project. I thought the M xovers + brand spankin new Millenniums = Super Thor, = WRONG, tiny minisclue gain in tweeter, but then nice gain in W18E001 bass punch. Dumped the Millenniums at $300 free ship, sold in 2!!!! hours ebay. Then boughta DavidLouis yelolow 6 at $471, , mistake there as its not *High* fidelity, mids are not up to the DLVX8. But hey its all part of The Speaker Experiement. But does further my understanding in how these WBers work. And how superior WBers are to any xover/low sensitivity type design. When I placed the cheap lousey Diatone 6 (from DavidLouis) on 1 channel, the **Super* Seas Thirs on the other, at that very moment the verdict was clear and decisive. Same day the Millennium's went for sale on Ebay and same day ordered the DL Yellow 6. This WBer experiment is in progress, And i do expect to see further gains. btw this topic is soon to become Audiogon's most frequently visisted and top viewed in just a matter of time,. Which is good. Here on this topic we finally will get things thrown under the old carpet out in the open. **Do I needa new amplifer? ..Do i need a better source?...Do I need better cables?...** No, no, no. What you need to bring the system to high fidelity is a WBer system. **can I keep what i have and add a WBer?* Yes and no, No if the midwoofer has resonance issues. And the tweet will need to be taken up to 5khz. So there's work to make it happen. At least i can salvage the W18E001's. + the added Mundorf Supreme Silver Oil 10uf was a winner. The midwoofer has to be on same level of neutrality as the WBer cone's voicing. I found the DLVX8 a bit superior to the Tang Band 2145, which Bache Audio employs, He prefers the Tang Band. Both were close, to the point, 6 of one half dozen the other. But Im giving the Cigar to the DavidLouis VX8. |
Sure some of my ideas have resulted in making some enemies around herd. To the point **I’m done with Audiogon, good bye...can’t take (handel?) mozartfan’s antics and blabberings...*..Others are upset that a few old timeers exited due to my pugnacious temper. Or is it perhaps , some of what I am saying might be close to the truth about what makes fidelity high and what makes speakers non-fidelity?? Very surprised that it was I who have highlighted these long standing issues inherent within xover designs. Where’s all the big time audiophiles with extensive knowledge about these things,, NOT chiming in?? Maybe perhaps the things I point out really can’t be defended against. That the center band width is all critical and that xovers only make feeble attempts to correct and butress the flaws of a midwoofer and tweeter. ?? WEll its late 2121. Why the delay of some 20 years of hushing up over this situation of xover designs. vs the success of the critical band width in Wide Band speakers. It makes me very happy that I made these realizations all on my own efforts. My speaker design is all my own. I was completely unaware of Bache Audio designs, or any other that combined drivers into a system. But I do believe I am the 1st audiophile to combine dual WBers into 1 system and further developments will have a WBer Trio System. If the WBer Trio works out, I know for a fact, no one else will have such a design. It was contact with my tech geek who is a electrical savant, which awakened the spirit of genius within me. + the pain and suffering of the Thor upgrade disaster Further giving the impulse to think outside the box. Being a iconoclast doesn’t hurt either. In order to make NEW discoveries (= leave old ideas behind) one must sail out on the open seas (Seals And Croft), chart new intercellar space, **To go where no man has gone before** (StarTrek) As Iconoclast I have no fear of breaking and smashing the temples of xover speakers, as though they were *the gods*. No hesitation whatsoever. No I do not make for a good welcomed guest at a audiophile club meeting. Whats Jack Nickleson's most famous notable line? |
Well ya know it’s not really your ideas that causes everyone anguish. It’s the amount of times you feel you need to put forth those ideas and the complete lack of understanding about what you feel your ideas are worth. Consider the forum a conversation. You make a statement and wait for others to respond. No need to bump a thread, no need to express your beliefs on topics that have nothing to do with your beliefs. Do you have an opinion on "I’d be curious to hear feedback on what constitutes HiFi vs. MidFi across various components. "? Can you be concise and focused to just that question? and most importantly can you do it in a single post and wait for someone to actually ask a question about your response? You’ve started your own threads. On those, post as much as you want it’s your thread but I’m pretty sure bigtex22 the OP got it. There is no need to keep blathering on. |
You are taking my ideas out of context, due to your stubborn refusal to accept the inherent limitations of xover style speakersNever once, anywhere, did I say this. You are imagining it because I don’t hear what you do in your speakers. Tough. Do xover types have critical issues in the 2khz-3khz band width?In a properly designed speaker, no. Troels actually told you that in the article you linked. It would have told you that if you read and understood it. You didn’t. Sophie Milman, Diana Krall sounds quite accurate viia the Sony cam.Placing the mic right up to the driver makes it sound it’s worst. All that lovely noise from that awful whizzer cone. IOW, they sounded like crap on your videos too. The only time they are close to acceptable is when you are across the room in the video. They make it all of the way up to mid fi at that point. Or is it perhaps , some of what I am saying might be close to the truth about what makes fidelity high and what makes speakers non-fidelity??You have had plenty of videos showing exactly what bad sounds like. We get the idea. Where’s all the big time audiophiles with extensive knowledge about these things,, NOT chiming in??They are laughing at you and your measure once, cut five times speaker. Damn, it's still too short. WEll its late 2121.OMG! |
There is no one going to upset my apple cart. I know what I have I know what i hear. I stand by my speaker design, thanks to some chinese tech geek who knows how to build one heck ofa speaker this way I do not have to break my bank acct over 2 german labs requests for purchase price. Thank heavens for that. This is one case where china stolen techology is a very good blessing. I stand by my speakers til death. Pity I’m much older now and so cherish every minute the music is playing. As I do not know when my time is up. Better late than never as they say. Hifi system. Dreams really can come true. |
Ohhh the hate for WBers, Its clear to me now,. As much as you guys hate WBers is the exact same hate I have for A-Z xover types.I don't hate wideband drivers. I have never said that. I have never heard one that compelled me to purchase it. I.E.- I don't find them to be better than what I have on hand. If I found one that I liked enough, I would pay the amount respective to its performance. Why would anyone hate a speaker? Pretty bizarre thought process. |
Interesting. I have a similar reaction to his posts. https://youtu.be/39GTH8UlXK8?t=8 |
Mid fi,…hi fi. If you can afford mid fi, THAT is hi fi! 2000$ speakers, 700$ speakers,…..who cares. A 5000$ amp or a used 1500$ amp,….? don’t matter. Clean the components, listen to them, care for them, and enjoy the magic of music! It took me 35+ years to get a BRAND, is there a massive difference in sound, not too much you will really hear, maybe a tighter kick drum, or a slightly brighter or less bright tweeter,……. Just jam tunes ! don’t worry about it. My Onkyo m-504 I first bought, vs my Sunfire 600 sig, there is difference, only at higher volumes, where the headroom is a major factor! Not much difference, buy what you can afford, and save a little more,…..save a bit, sell the amp, use that to help move up a bit. it’s a expensive hobby, so patience is paramount! |
I guess I am naive - I didn't realize mid-fi was a thing. And apparently it's potentially an insult. I view hifi and audiophile as a label to be whatever the speaker wants it to be. If it's about listening to music and music reproduction it's hifi and someone has a little audiophile streak in them. One of my friends won't bring his kids to my house for fear they'll break something. And he enjoys music and the hi girls he put in his entertainment room. Granted it's a different price point but the enjoyment and sharing of the experience is all the same. |
This topic boggle my mind so I ask friend that over last night. Wife have part time model job with Victoria secrets. She have bunch of model friend over to celebrate end of season shoot. They always come to house let loose and most stay night in guest house and I make some extra space in basement gym for girl but I still need workout ever 6 hour we end up share space. I teach them do squats and lat pull down good for model body. My friend help me open pool house and position Wilson alexx on wheel so it easy. I have bass trap and tube pre and it float sweet stage out over pool it top notch. We have cigar while girl play volleyball in pool. My friend agree that this hifi because I appreciate sound. Some argue reflection not as good and is no proper boundary. I say whatever I not want to hear call midfi. Even when girl have chicken fight screaming and pulling everything off we still able to get pinpoint image and the bass still tight and focus. Just because I not sit still with head not move alone in room you call this mid fi? I say all interest in better sound be call hifi. Midfi low fi shot below waste put down. |
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SPEAKERS, that’s where real differences can truly be heard, and there, progressive improvements are low, mid, high, unbelievable! The price of speakers is proportional: low, mid, high, unbelievable. Of course there is marketing muddle, but the functional and sound differences are readily understood and heard. ................................................................ Next: match the correct speakers to the listening environment. BIG differences Next, feed what content into those speakers? BIG differences Next: what equipment ’chain’ feeds the content. Each ’thing’ may or may not make a difference, the degree of difference relative to the speakers, and listening space is very slight if real, the power of expectation bias is HUGE and must be guarded against. ........... Now, analog chain: happy days to you, enjoy the chase. avoiding problems a big part of success Now, digital chain: happy days to you, enjoy the chase, not for me. |
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Labels always do injustice to truth. Categorizing, stereotyping and dividing. Some strange posts in this thread. Since the only measure that matters is ones own ears, I would submit that when you hear music so well presented you are moved to tears or can feel what the creator is trying to achieve you have found the "Fi" that matters. Enjoy it. Enjoy it to the point where you could care less what anyone else thinks of your system. Smile at the people who want to argue over brand x and brand y while you cue up your own piece of audio nirvana. |
With a taste of a single SET amp, I may have to give the edge to SET on fidelity vs PP amplification, Have another SET arriving in 2 weeks. Will keep you guys posted. If a winner, then unequivocally I have to place SET as king of amplification. AS for speakers/high fidelity ,, you know how I feel about that contest. No need to reiterate, and be-labor that point.
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There are basically, roughly 3 levels of musical reproduction, Low, medium, high. Bose would be a perfect example of the very lowest spectrum of fidelity in speakers. Many ss amps I would place in low to mid fi. I'd say there are more SET amps that qualify for high fidelity, vs whereas I am not sure I could place alot of PP amps in this category.
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The three levels of "fi" you list is sheer genius
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ hehee
yeah well someone has to start to classify things . If your set up requires 90++ SPL massive room, heavy metal,, then of course a SET will not work, or lets say its far from *The Ideal*.. But for avg/small rooms, reasonable SPL (I listen at 60 SPL) and light blues. jazz, classical chamber, then a SET is near perfect. You **could** use a PP amp,, but why? SET’s offer far superior midrange,, well let me back up, the mids ofa SET are superior to a PP amp. PP will render bass, highs a bit better. Which is why if you go SET, best speaker will be eithera horn system , but ideally a FR se up with woofer and high end tweeter. I have to place this set up over PP amplifaction. I’ve listened to 3 PP amps, EL34, KT88, KT120. I really was not **WOW*ed by any of the 3, now that I know what a SET can do. This is why I give the Cuban Cigar to the SET. Happy holidays to to you as well. |
Tell ya what If you are willing to give up some fq's in bass + highs response, you will be rewarded with midrange magic in a SET. So its hard to say one is better than the other. But I'd say SET is my preference. PP asa 2nd setup. Speakers, only a FR system will do. I look at xover/low sensitivity speakers as midfi. Including Zu and Tekton, both mid-fi. To qualify for hifi speakers there must be near zero cloration/distortion. At say 70-75 db SPL. I listen to music at no more than 65 db SPL.
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HiFi literally stands for high fidelity, which means a great deal of faithfulness to the original source. Lesser equipment doesn't reveal as much of the original source to be heard as much as better equipment. That doesn't mean you can't have an enjoyable experience listening to mid-fi equipent. It's just as there's less being revealed. That can be on the way of color, texture, frequency response, and dynamics. |
In terms of price, it’s usually $100-$200k difference. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Not true fact of this matter what is MidFi vs HIGH FIDELITY is simply stated KT series tubes (EL34,88,120,150, might even throw Jadis’ 170 in this midfi group) is midfi High Fidelity are the so called DHT SET and PP designs. DHT Let me be clear KT aka Kinkless Tetrode = Mid Fidelity, nice but no cigar.
vs DHT now here is where the golden sounds are voiced. The crown jewels of tube amplification. Jut my 2$ opinion which will only get you a $2 cup of coffee, you KT fans , dont get all bent out of shape over my unbiased opinion. . Stay **kink=less** ;--) https://www.diy-audio-guide.com/direct-heated-triodes.html |
