HiFi vs MidFi

I like chocolate. I know cocoa beans.

Making a list ASAP!!

In terms of price, it’s usually $100-$200k difference. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

Not true

fact of this matter what is MidFi vs HIGH FIDELITY is simply stated

KT series tubes (EL34,88,120,150, might even throw Jadis’ 170 in this midfi group) is midfi

High Fidelity are the so called DHT SET and PP designs. DHT

Let me be clear KT aka Kinkless Tetrode = Mid Fidelity, nice but no cigar.

 

vs

DHT now here is where the golden sounds are voiced. The crown jewels of tube amplification.

Jut my 2$ opinion which will only get you a  $2 cup of coffee,

you KT fans , dont get all bent out of shape over my unbiased opinion.

. Stay **kink=less** ;--)

https://www.diy-audio-guide.com/direct-heated-triodes.html

In terms of price, it’s usually $100-$200k difference.

 

In terms of sound quality, well…

HiFi literally stands for high fidelity, which means a great deal of faithfulness to the original source.

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

Excellent post. may I be of some assistance helping you to clarfiy what you mean by High(est) Fidelity, OK well here ya go, Music starts at 13:33 

 

 

 

HiFi literally stands for high fidelity, which means a great deal of faithfulness to the original source. 

Lesser equipment doesn't reveal as much of the original source to be heard as much as better equipment. That doesn't mean you can't have an enjoyable experience listening to mid-fi equipent. It's just as there's less being revealed. That can be on the way of color, texture, frequency response, and dynamics. 

Tell ya what

If you are willing to give up some fq's in bass + highs response, you will be rewarded with midrange magic in a  SET.

So its hard to say one is better than the other. But I'd say SET is my preference. PP asa  2nd setup.

Speakers, only a  FR system will do. 

I look at xover/low sensitivity speakers as midfi. Including Zu and Tekton, both mid-fi. 

To qualify for hifi speakers there must be near zero cloration/distortion.

At say 70-75 db SPL. 

I listen to music at no more than 65 db SPL.

 

The three levels of "fi" you list is sheer genius

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ hehee

 

yeah well someone has to start to classify things . If your set up requires 90++ SPL massive room, heavy metal,, then of course a SET will not work, or lets say its far from *The Ideal*.. But for avg/small rooms, reasonable SPL (I listen at 60 SPL) and light blues. jazz, classical chamber, then a SET is near perfect. You **could** use a PP amp,, but why? SET’s offer far superior midrange,, well let me back up, the mids ofa SET are superior to a PP amp. PP will render bass, highs a bit better. Which is why if you go SET, best speaker will be eithera horn system , but ideally a FR se up with woofer and high end tweeter. I have to place this set up over PP amplifaction. I’ve listened to 3 PP amps, EL34, KT88, KT120. I really was not **WOW*ed by any of the 3, now that I know what a SET can do. This is why I give the Cuban Cigar to the SET. Happy holidays to to you as well.

@mozartfan 

 

The three levels of "fi" you list is sheer genius. (just an elbow in the ribs for some holiday fun). Peace to all.

There  are basically, roughly 3 levels of musical reproduction, Low, medium, high.

Bose would be a  perfect example of the very lowest spectrum of fidelity in speakers.

Many ss amps I would place in low to mid fi. 

I'd say there are  more SET amps that qualify for high fidelity,  vs whereas I am not sure I could place alot of PP amps in this category.

 

With a taste of a single SET amp, I may have to give the edge to SET on fidelity vs PP amplification, Have another SET arriving in 2 weeks.

Will keep you guys posted.

If a winner, then unequivocally I have to place SET as king of amplification.

AS for speakers/high fidelity ,, you know how I feel about that contest.

No need to reiterate, and be-labor that point.

 

I believe mid-fi now is better than hi-fi was at some point before.

@bigtex22 

Labels always do injustice to truth. Categorizing, stereotyping and dividing.  Some strange posts in this thread.  Since the only measure that matters is ones own ears, I would submit that when you hear music so well presented you are moved to tears or can feel what the creator is trying to achieve you have found the "Fi" that matters.  Enjoy it.  Enjoy it to the point where you could care less what anyone else thinks of your system. Smile at the people who want to argue over brand x and brand y while you cue up your own piece of audio nirvana.  

SPEAKERS, that’s where real differences can truly be heard, and there, progressive improvements are low, mid, high, unbelievable! The price of speakers is proportional: low, mid, high, unbelievable. Of course there is marketing muddle, but the functional and sound differences are readily understood and heard.

................................................................

Next: match the correct speakers to the listening environment. BIG differences

Next, feed what content into those speakers? BIG differences

Next: what equipment ’chain’ feeds the content. Each ’thing’ may or may not make a difference, the degree of difference relative to the speakers, and listening space is very slight if real, the power of expectation bias is HUGE and must be guarded against.

...........

Now, analog chain: happy days to you, enjoy the chase. avoiding problems a big part of success

Now, digital chain: happy days to you, enjoy the chase, not for me.

Where you stand on this, depends upon where you sit..

Seems like a term made up for insulting others. I bet there are many so-called mid-Fi systems that some enjoy more than those who buy to impress their friends. 
 

I’m thinking of starting a go fund me page for tubebuffer. Maybe with some help,we can improve his quality of life. No one should have to suffer like that.

Is that head in a vise, or head in a vice?

I'm coming over to tubebuffer's house for listening session. 🥳

Best post ever lol!

This topic boggle my mind so I ask friend that over last night. Wife have part time model job with Victoria secrets. She have bunch of model friend over to celebrate end of season shoot. They always come to house let loose and most stay night in guest house and I make some extra space in basement gym for girl but I still need workout ever 6 hour we end up share space. I teach them do squats and lat pull down good for model body. My friend help me open pool house and position Wilson alexx on wheel so it easy. I have bass trap and tube pre and it float sweet stage out over pool it top notch. We have cigar while girl play volleyball in pool. My friend agree that this hifi because I appreciate sound. Some argue reflection not as good and is no proper boundary. I say whatever I not want to hear call midfi. Even when girl have chicken fight screaming and pulling everything off we still able to get pinpoint image and the bass still tight and focus. Just because I not sit still with head not move alone in room you call this mid fi? I say all interest in better sound be call hifi. Midfi low fi shot below waste put down.

I guess I am naive - I didn't realize mid-fi was a thing. And apparently it's potentially an insult. 
 

I view hifi and audiophile as a label to be whatever the speaker wants it to be. 
 

If it's about listening to music and music reproduction it's hifi and someone has a little audiophile streak in them.  
 

One of my friends won't bring his kids to my house for fear they'll break something. And he enjoys music and the hi girls he put in his entertainment room. Granted it's a different price point but the enjoyment and sharing of the experience is all the same. 

I am Mid-Fi.

Mid fi,…hi fi. 

  If you can afford mid fi, THAT is hi fi!

  2000$ speakers, 700$ speakers,…..who cares.

  A 5000$ amp or a used 1500$ amp,….?
don’t matter. Clean the components, listen to them, care for them, and enjoy the magic of music!

  It took me 35+ years to get a BRAND, is there a massive difference in sound,
not too much you will really hear, maybe a tighter kick drum, or a slightly brighter or less bright tweeter,…….

   Just jam tunes !
don’t worry about it.

 My Onkyo m-504 I first bought, vs my Sunfire 600 sig, there is difference, only at higher volumes, where the headroom is a major factor!

    Not much difference, 
buy what you can afford, and save a little more,…..save a bit, sell the amp, use that to help move up a bit.

it’s a expensive hobby, so patience is paramount!

I get to drive in the driveway. I’m an excellent driver! 

Why are you posting this on someone else's thread? It is off topic and you have enough of your own threads showing how bad this set up sounds. Leave this on one of your own threads. 

well my latest

sweet no fatigue sound stage

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMQU0jH17zA&t=527s

Interesting. I have a similar reaction to his posts. https://youtu.be/39GTH8UlXK8?t=8

I feel like I got dragged to @mozartfan's off-off-Broadway one man show. There are 4 people in the audience. Two are asleep, one is scrolling on his phone. His partner is the fourth, daydreaming of the scene in Inglorious Bastards where the theater burns.

Cheers,
Spencer

Ohhh the hate for WBers, Its clear to me now,. As much as you guys hate WBers is the exact same hate I have for A-Z xover types.

I don't hate wideband drivers. I have never said that. I have never heard one that compelled me to purchase it. I.E.- I don't find them to be better than what I have on hand. If I found one that I liked enough, I would pay the amount respective to its performance. Why would anyone hate a speaker? Pretty bizarre thought process. 

Ohhh the hate for WBers, Its clear to me now,. As much as you guys hate WBers is the exact same hate I have for A-Z xover types.
Wouldnt pay a  dime for a  xover type. 

@csmgolf  I hear ya.  but clueless is as clueless does

Dreams really can  come true
Only to those who seek, If you don't spend time  in research, you'll never ever find that speaker perfect for your preferences.
You'll forever be stuck on the speakermerrygoround. 

There is no one going to upset my apple cart.
I know what I have
I know what i hear.
I stand by my speaker design, thanks to some chinese tech geek who knows how to build one heck ofa speaker
this way I do not have to break my bank acct over 2 german labs requests for purchase price.
Thank heavens for that.
This is one case where china stolen techology is a very good blessing.

I stand by my speakers til death.
Pity I’m much older now and so cherish every minute the music is playing. As I do not know when my time is up.
Better late than never as they say.

Hifi system.
Dreams really can come true. 

@danager    +1000

I apologize for getting involved in it. It is hard to resist though.

You are taking my ideas out of context, due to your stubborn refusal to accept the inherent limitations of xover style speakers

Never once, anywhere, did I say this. You are imagining it because I don’t hear what you do in your speakers. Tough.

Do xover types have critical issues in the 2khz-3khz band width?
Its either
Yes
or
No

In a properly designed speaker, no. Troels actually told you that in the article you linked. It would have told you that if you read and understood it. You didn’t.

Sophie Milman, Diana Krall sounds quite accurate viia the Sony cam.
I hear true fidelity in my uploads of both.
Which is why I plant the mic right up to both Wbers, so you get a real impression of the quality of the speaker.

Placing the mic right up to the driver makes it sound it’s worst. All that lovely noise from that awful whizzer cone. IOW, they sounded like crap on your videos too. The only time they are close to acceptable is when you are across the room in the video. They make it all of the way up to mid fi at that point.

Or is it perhaps , some of what I am saying might be close to the truth about what makes fidelity high and what makes speakers non-fidelity??

You have had plenty of videos showing exactly what bad sounds like. We get the idea.

Where’s all the big time audiophiles with extensive knowledge about these things,, NOT chiming in??

They are laughing at you and your measure once, cut five times speaker. Damn, it's still too short.

WEll its late 2121.

OMG!

Well ya know it’s not really your ideas that causes everyone anguish. It’s the amount of times you feel you need to put forth those ideas and the complete lack of understanding about what you feel your ideas are worth.

Consider the forum a conversation. You make a statement and wait for others to respond. No need to bump a thread, no need to express your beliefs on topics that have nothing to do with your beliefs.

Do you have an opinion on "I’d be curious to hear feedback on what constitutes HiFi vs. MidFi across various components. "?

Can you be concise and focused to just that question? and most importantly can you do it in a single post and wait for someone to actually ask a question about your response?

You’ve started your own threads.  On those, post as much as you want it’s your thread but I’m pretty sure bigtex22 the OP got it. There is no need to keep blathering on.

Sure some of my ideas have resulted in making some enemies around herd. To the point
**I’m done with Audiogon, good bye...can’t take (handel?) mozartfan’s antics and blabberings...*..Others are upset that a few old timeers exited due to my pugnacious temper.
Or is it perhaps , some of what I am saying might be close to the truth about what makes fidelity high and what makes speakers non-fidelity??

Very surprised that it was I who have highlighted these long standing issues inherent within xover designs.

Where’s all the big time audiophiles with extensive knowledge about these things,, NOT chiming in??
Maybe perhaps the things I point out really can’t be defended against.
That the center band width is all critical and that xovers only make feeble attempts to correct and butress the flaws of a midwoofer and tweeter.
??

WEll its late 2121.
Why the delay of some 20 years of hushing up over this situation of xover designs.
vs
the success of the critical band width in Wide Band speakers.

It makes me very happy that I made these realizations all on my own efforts.
My speaker design is all my own.
I was completely unaware of Bache Audio designs, or any other that combined drivers into a system.
But I do believe I am the 1st audiophile to combine dual WBers into 1 system and further developments will have a WBer Trio System.
If the WBer Trio works out, I know for a fact, no one else will have such a design.

It was contact with my tech geek who is a electrical savant, which awakened the spirit of genius within me.
+ the pain and suffering of the Thor upgrade disaster Further giving the impulse to think outside the box.
Being a iconoclast doesn’t hurt either.
In order to make NEW discoveries (= leave old ideas behind) one must sail out on the open seas (Seals And Croft), chart new intercellar space, **To go where no man has gone before** (StarTrek)
As Iconoclast I have no fear of breaking and smashing the temples of xover speakers, as though they were *the gods*. 
No hesitation whatsoever. 
No I do not make for a  good welcomed guest  at  a  audiophile club meeting. 
Whats Jack Nickleson's  most famous notable  line? 

the opposite, in fact. If what you have shown on video is the best possible, the bar is much, much lower than I thought

~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Mahvishnu came through aweful I admit, was trying to get  Billy Cobham drum sets on the vid.
Sophie Milman, Diana Krall sounds quite accurate viia the Sony cam.
I hear true fidelity in my uploads of both.
Which is why I plant the mic right up to both Wbers, so you get a real impression of the quality of the speaker.
Its there, you can say *i do not hear fidelity* Its there.
All my cash went into upgrading my Thors, My teck says **well since you have new Mundorf $$$ xovers, lets ck your Millennium tweeters,,,ohh look one tweeter is off 1/2 ohm, better buy new ones,,** So I did, gave the **old* ones away and bought new @ $750....absoluely zero gain, old = new, = waste of $750.
+ waste of tweeter Mundorf xovers = big $ loss.
Yeah I’m upset for that fiasco.
This loss , 1 yr ago is holding back my WBer Speaker Project.
I thought the M xovers + brand spankin new Millenniums = Super Thor,
= WRONG, tiny minisclue gain in tweeter, but then
nice gain in W18E001 bass punch.
Dumped the Millenniums at $300 free ship, sold in 2!!!! hours ebay.

Then boughta DavidLouis yelolow 6 at $471, , mistake there as its not *High* fidelity, mids are not up to the DLVX8. But hey its all part of The Speaker Experiement.
But does further my understanding in how these WBers work.
And how superior WBers are to any xover/low sensitivity type design.
When I placed the cheap lousey Diatone 6 (from DavidLouis) on 1 channel, the **Super* Seas Thirs on the other, at that very moment  the verdict was clear and decisive.
Same day the Millennium's went for sale on Ebay and  same day ordered the DL Yellow 6. 

This WBer experiment is  in progress,
And i do expect to see further gains. 

btw this topic is soon to become Audiogon's most frequently visisted and  top viewed  in just a  matter of time,. 
Which is good.
Here on this topic we finally will get things thrown under the old carpet out in the open.
**Do I needa  new amplifer? ..Do i need a  better source?...Do I need better cables?...**
No, no, no.
What you need to bring the system to high fidelity is a   WBer system. 
**can  I keep what i have and add a  WBer?*
Yes and no,
No if the midwoofer has resonance issues. 
And the tweet will need to be taken up to 5khz. 
So there's work to make it happen.
At least i can salvage the W18E001's. +  the added Mundorf Supreme Silver Oil 10uf was  a  winner. 

The midwoofer has to be on same level of neutrality as the WBer cone's voicing. 
I found the DLVX8 a  bit superior to the Tang Band 2145, which  Bache Audio employs,
He prefers the Tang Band.
Both were close, to the point, 6 of one half dozen the other. 
But Im giving the Cigar to the DavidLouis VX8.

I know you don't understand, but those two statements are in conflict with each other.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Obvioulsy if I stated
*My WBer has no such weakness**
Would undermine everything I am saying in support of WBers as not only the **Ideal* speaker, but really honestly, truthfull (no snakeoil) WBers is the speaker by choice, the ultimate listening experience.

Zero, near zero, a  miniscule factor, all mean same thing.
xover low sens all have coloration, distortion, fatigue which is noticable. My 2 tech geeks love their vintage stacks.

They hear no such coloration. They  do not get fatigued by their Acoustic Research AR3's, 1973, Philips 2 ways, 10 inch woofer, Radio Shak Nova 7's. 
They love their Vintage stacks.
There ya go, they can live with this paper sound.
Soory I can't
I've since moved on to magnesium in the Seas and some  sort of wooden cone in the DavidLouis.
The magnesium cones are extremely well behaved and have no resonances below 1800hz. 
The wood cone has excellent voice characterists. 
IOW neutral, which is what makes high fi, fatigue free listening.
Follow?
Look, I ain;t backing down. You are taking my ideas out of context, due to your  stubborn refusal to accept  the inherent limitations of xover style speakers, low db sens being the most  obvious  curse of this design. 

If Troels was on this discussion, he'd at least agree with some of my ideas.
Whereas you simply  enjoy twisting and distorting what I am GETTING at.

Just answer the Q.
Do xover types have critical issues in the 2khz-3khz band width?
Its either
Yes
or 
No
Not holding my breath for your answer thats for sure

I get it, you don't have a lot of money. You want to believe you have found the Holy Grail and beaten everyone for very cheap. Sorry, but it just isn't true. If you like your system, great. Your videos are not convincing anyone that you have good sound. Quite the opposite, in fact. If what you have shown on video is the best possible, the bar is much, much lower than I thought. 

whizzers allow for a  wider soundstage.
Rolloff? For sure, no big deal.

It is the horrible decay and overhang that they have that is the problem. They create issues that you clearly can't hear, or you don't understand what you are hearing. 

First you daid this:

My WBers have zero distortion = zero fatigue.
This is a measurable fact

Then you said this in reply to another member:

All speakers distort, they are the weakest link in the chain.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Yep 100% agree, Read my post logged just above, In that post i explain all in clear unequivocal language.

I know you don't understand, but those two statements are in conflict with each other. 

Its a known fact super tweeters/horn tweets have sibilance.

You are remarkable in the sheer number of "facts" you can get wrong.

Classical music does not need the 15khz=50khz super tweet range.

You do realize that sibilance is well below this range, right? Then again, no you don't realize it.

http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/Design_criteria.htm
It is clear you don't understand what he is saying.

I'm picking on B&W because they are the easiest target of all *hifi*  speakers (hifi= high priced) 
But equally true
Jadis KT170 + Sonus  Faber = Sonus faber. 
Jadis KT170 + Zu = Zu
and so forth.
Math made simple, not rocket science. 

invalid398 posts10-28-2021 10:31amMy WBers have zero distortion = zero fatigue.
This is a measurable fact


All speakers distort, they are the weakest link in the chain.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Yep 100% agree, Read my post logged just above, In that post  i explain all in clear unequivocal  language. 
**Zero* = as best as ya gonna get. 
Almost un-measurable, not significant degree of coloration. 
Indeed, 
THE weakest link. As I clearly explain above. 
Jadis new KT170 intergrated via B&W will sound JUST like that, B&W sound. 
= highly colored *mid -fi* = no-fi = distortion/fatigue.

Back to the OP's all important Q.
This topic is the #1 topic of importance in all Audiogon at the moment, In fact I'd say this discussion is  THE SINGLE most critical Q in all Audiogon's history as a all thing Audio Discussion forum.

So we are speaking of  the only thing which makes a  system  True High Fidelity as defined by Philips Labs and that which lowers our systems to **mid fidelity** which really translates as anti-highfidelity .Which is really NOT fidelity and is what we all want to avoid.
Seas Excel are high fidelity, 
There's no arguing that point.
But at under 90db?
 nah, not my cup of tea, when  there are WBers with same high fidelity at 90++ db sensitivity to be had.

Jadis stellar amplification connected to a  Bose will only result in Mid Fidelity = anti-fidelity -= junk sound.

Speakers is THE component which determines whethera  system is high fidelity or the OPPOSITE *mid* Fidelity.
There is really only 2 camps. 
Is the speaker suffering resonances in the upper bass/low mids?
If the answer is 
YES
Then no amount of high end caps will fix the drivers  handicaps, Its crippled, has laryngitis, thus the Tenors notes are coughy, the bass guitar /drums have upper  bass fq/low mid fq's agitations.
Here is where all the coloration/distortions can be found as the culprit.
Midwoofers cone material. Also magnet size/type has some influences.
Cone material is the main culprit to lousey  upper bass/low midrange.

Next we have a  tiny VC tweeter attempting to sing low mids, under 2500hz.
Its acceptable as per Troels testing.
But a  tweeter 2khz-3200hz vs a  WBers' 2khz-3200hz. , Ridicuolous
Tweeters have lower than 90db sens vs a  WBers 90++ sensitivity.
Complete total annihilation. Due to 2 factors
WBer has a  much larger voice coil/whizzer + higher sensitivity.
Championship wrestling smackdown.

This topic is 
The most important topi9c, ever on all Audiogon, past , present and future.
Its ABOUT! D*** Time we get to the bottom of this issue.
Lets pretend this problem does not exist.
Lets play hide and seek.
Lets ignore the facts.
Sorry game over folks.
The WBer team won, walkoff  grand slam. Bottom 9th, 2 outs, 2 strikes. 
WBers reign as King Tenor Queen Soprano. 
No design can approach the WBers stellar performance. Not a  horn, not a  panel, not a  ESL. 
And especially *that other design** can't approach a  high end WBer. 
Caveat, we will need midwoofers/tweeters. 

My WBers have zero distortion = zero fatigue.
This is a measurable fact


All speakers distort, they are the weakest link in the chain.

Here ya go xover low sens speakers owners, Here is YOUR problem with your speakers.
Tangled up mess. 
Note Troels suggestions, make sure to use high end (=$$$$$) caps.
THese things ain't cheap, as i found out and only adds a  tiny nuance to tweeters , but a  nice size nuance to midwoofers in bass performance.
With my WBers, I do not have to deal with this xover headache.\
You do.
The type drivers Troel is refering to are very expensive.
Just a pair of any of his midwoofers and tweets , equals ,, no make that MORE than a   pair my WBers.
Add all his midwoofers + tweets + xover components together  then cabinets, wayyy out my budget.
And if you are doing one of Troel's 3 way projects,,Now you are up to Wilson size prices.

Not me. Budget cost for top high fidelity sound. 
Sonus Faber has a  2 way @ Sixteen G's.
wowow weeeee

http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/Design_criteria.htm