Based on all the opinions and past experiences I have read by the readers, I need to agree that there are 2 common factors when buying stereo you have not previously audition. 1. information you dig from the net and any other sites including reviews and gurus'. 2. information you obtain from people that have actually audition said units. These can be audiophiles, friends and vendors you trust. Although personal audition in your own system is not always possible, there must be a certain level of confidence to buy. I do remember my previous stereos were a combination of audition and "faith"
LP12 - auditioned
Wharfedale bookshelves - auditioned
Counterpoint SA 12, Pre amp SA1 and Phono Pre amp - "faith"
Thiels CS-2 - auditioned
Rogue Cronus Magnum - auditioned
Vandys 2CE sig - auditioned
And the new system will keep the Vandys but will consist of
Audible Illusions Pre amp M3A and Belles Virtuoso power amp ,currently in construction with a big "FAITH" attached.
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All my recent purchases were based on a combination of personal experience with similar products from the same manufacturer, or recommendations from highly regarded sources. Examples:
Pass Labs XA60.5 (had an XA30.5 first)
Goldenear Triton One.R (had the GE Triton One)
A-T ART9 cartridge - Audiogon forum recommendation
Modwright tube-modified Oppo 105D (familiar with other Modwright mods)
Manley Stingray - had not heard it, but bought used from dealer, so no risk
every one of these purchases worked out well - especially the Manley. |
I have a lot of respect for Belles. I still own one of the first amps he made, the Belles A, and it has stood up very well over the years (aside from the habit of welding the switch contacts together at turn on). It will drive into 1 ohm loads.
It is my understanding that he still makes his gear himself, so you are getting a potential collector's item. |
OP, you made me think. Of everything that has passed through my hands over the last 40 years or so, only one item had a real demo (and a public one at that at a large dealer in the UK) - the original Kef Reference 105. I was so impressed I brought a pair to the States when I emigrated, and still have them, but not in use. All of my subsequent speakers were bought without audition (PSB, Quad 2905, KEF 207/2, and Stax headphones). But as my mind runs in small circles, I tend to move up the chain with manufacturers I have known. For instance a college roommate had Quad ESL57's which put me on the Quad path, and the KEF 105s lead to the 207s. Everything on the electronic side was after reading reviews and info on audiophile web sites, or being in the right place at the right time picking up demo or clearance equipment locally, hardly ever with a demo. But I had done my research at least, and what I bought turned out fine, with only a couple of disappointments (both were CD players). |
It's almost impossible to audition a phono cartridge in a meaningful way before you pay for it, in my experience. All the other components I have 'bought' without hearing first have had a reasonable return policy. Luckily, few have had to be returned because, like many others have said, I research the hell out of stuff.
PS. I have been to Audio Connections many times and I respect their experience and opinions. Don't worry @Iobinero, if your not delighted; John will make it right. |
I prefer home demo. Only time I did not was when I upgraded from Pass Labs Xa30.5 to XA 100.8. Yet I was anxious until after burn in period . I made the right decision. If you have experience with another amp from the same brand in your current system then upgrade should be safe |
Yes. But I tend to read reviews and look for consensus opinion. IE- if one reviewer considers a piece to be the best ever, while other reviewers say it is just -ok- then maybe it is just -ok-. Or if all reviews, across multiple platforms etc, agree that the component is wonderful, that also sends a powerful message.
I have purchased the following without prior audition:
KEF LS50
ARC SP-10mkII
AT 33ML-OCC
Lundahl and Cinemag SUT
Marantz SR7009 (then TOTL HT Receiver for our Den)
While an audition helps in decision making, a new component represents a variable that you will not be able to confirm until the component is in your home, in your system. Still a leap (but smaller) faith. |
In the early 1970's I bought Fisher three way 12" woofers speakers without listening. Next, I bought a Phase Linear 400, with easily expeceed results and electrical smells. Next were Advents, but I listened. Then two more Advents. Whee! It lasted through college, with B&W's and Audire (and some panels, Maggies and Acoustat, intermingled) since.
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I buy site unseen/unheard all the time! How can you not nowadays, as there are so few audio stores left. I still remember the Great "Tech HiFi stores" that I frequented in my youth! Nowadays, I dont feel like driving 100 miles when I can just place an order online. Plus if i do not like something i can return it if it does not work out. Fortunately, most of the time it does work out after careful research and component matching etc. Generally, I have found reviews of equipment helpful in narrowing down what may work. |
I bought every piece of my system without hearing any of it beforehand. Just did research and considered the opinions of my various audio "gurus." I try to get complementary components so that the entire system sounds good. That's the goal, right? The only way to truly hear a component is to listen to it IN YOUR SYSTEM before buying it. That almost never happens, so it's always a crapshoot, but it seems to work out. I've never had anything that sounded bad. Most surprise on the upside. My biggest risk was swapping my McIntosh C2200 preamp and Pass X150.8 power amp for an Esoteric F-05 integrated amp. As expected, there was not a loss in clarity or balance in the sound; just provided the simplicity and smaller footprint I wanted. |
I bought the Quicksilver Headphone amp sight unseen from John at Audio Connection.... one the best purchases ever !!! |
Yes I have...though I have only purchased items that I could return for a full refund within 7 days.
My experience has been positive and in one case I returned the integrated amp because it didn't provide the appropriate volume - I do listen to music on the louder side. (And I was a Field Artillery Office like the character Bob from Good Morning Vietnam).
In April, I arranged to have a 7 day test period for a McIntosh C2600 and the improvement in my listening enjoyment - sound quality and functionality - was dramatic so I kept it.
Its your money and your listening experience - take some calculated risks. Your listening room is the best place to understand if the performance of new kit is worth the investment. |
Yes I bought a system from soundex
in Pa mid 90s
ibought Aurial 10-T speakers cat signature preamp, markLevenson amp
And 36 cdp,transparent ultra cables and power cords and it sounded fantastic. And got 20% off with no tax .i had to drive over 200 miles to pick it up
but was well worth the trip
for around $28k cash. Around 2000 I bought an MBL System
and Kharma model 1 speakers a superb sounding system .imoved to the UK and had my own Audiostore for 8 years .it has been fun ,now I buy Quality designs and just modify them much bigger bang for $$ spent.for much less. |
It helps to establish relationships with dealers and other audiophiles you trust. For example I talk with Rutan every now and then, trade texts of album covers to exchange music, etc. similar other relationships with dealers in Tacoma, Gig Harbor, Seattle, Santa Monica, San Diego, Atlanta.... you get the idea.
Other audiophiles I trust means for the most part we have heard each others systems and are able to recognize and communicate virtues and weaknesses. Blessed as I am, those number about twenty. After this €£%#??? COVID-19 passes, make an audiophile buddy.
then there are people who I have been to unamplified event in a reverberant space with... we share a very common reference ( and often the music files or tape ) Finally there are people you trust who systems, ( with some common components!! ), !musical taste, lack of ego etc make them sources. Some manufacturers are approachable- I am fortunate to have a connection with Richard Vandersteen ( OP he engineers for a relatively easy load and Belles is if anything over engineered - you have nothing to worry ! ). Manufacturers tend to run in a group so you will see Ayre ( Charlie RIP ), Aesthetix ( Jim ), Brinkmann ( Helmut), AQ ( Bill ), etc run in a bit of a pack - sharing some design principles ( for example DBS, no global negative F/B, built in first order low pass on amplifier, etc) So understanding those relationships is helpful.
Do some work, of course there is a Herron to audition 62 miles from me. I know this because I asked Keith. I bought my Triplaner without hearing it first, based on much of the above. Have fun, enjoy the journey and the music. |
I heard that amplifier driving the new Vandersteen Kento's at the Audio Connection right before the lockdown. Nick and I listened to vinyl and the system sounded really good. The system was using an Audio Research Preamp and phono stage with a Clearaudio Ovation turntable and the top of the line Hana cartridge. One of the few systems I've heard where the speakers just disappeared. All of the Belles amplifiers I have heard sound great. John wouldn't steer you wrong. Good Luck! |
Because audio salons can't make money like they used too. In the '80s when I sold high and mid fi retail and bought my stuff there and from similar mom & pop shops (in Cincinnati and Atlanta) their margins were always razor thin. Now non-existent unless you are in a very rich area (which most of us aren't). Even in Nashville, with all that money and music, there used to be dozens until the early/mid 2000s. Now: 2 and both small. |
"The fact of the matter is high end stores may be accessible in big cities but high end components never are." What do they sell in high end stores then? "Is there anyone here lives within driving distance of being able to hear a Raven, Onkk Cue, Schroeder, or Herron?" For whatever reason, it seems that none of these mentions dealers on their website. If they have no dealers, they are not making it easy to drive to hear them. Is that some marketing bait strategy? Inability to find a dealer willing to represent them? Something else? |
Hi,
mistakes happen when our knowledge on paper is about average.
The worst was a pair of B&W 803Matrix replacing TDL Studio 2.
On a Yamaha C-2a i got away easily selling it after a month to a guy who got it without listening! |
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Most of the electronics I've bought were either borrowed from the dealer for home audition, or purchased with a right to return the item if I did not like what I heard. Speakers were only auditioned in the store even when a home audition was offered (to much risk of damage in transportation/setup), and again, I had the right to return the speakers if they did not work in my setup.
When I went on a search for a high end turntable and tonearm, I knew that home audition was not all that practical, so I asked a friend who was in the audio industry for advice. He has heard hundreds of setup ups in shops and in people's home and he gave me a recommendation that had nothing to do with the company he represented. I went with that table/tonearm even though I had only casually heard it in a system I was not familiar with. That was my one big, mostly blind, purchase. |
Only 1 pair of speakers in 86
cerwin vega d-9’s
1812 overture, woofers really moves some major air!
bouthe on the spot.
About every other component bought unheard.
never been disappointed |
Once upon a time, no.
Of late, yes.
The overall quality of the majority of equipment has risen to the point that only 'nuance' has become the variable. Generally, the space it exists within has become the major issue...
But I can't hear dog whistles either, so no huge loss imho.... |
Unexpected. So many responses in the "did not hear it first" camp. I thought it would be just the opposite.
I bought only one pair of speakers hearing them first, and that was by chance. Heard them, liked them, bought them. Everything else was based on looks and features, I guess.
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Yup. Pretty much everyting except speakers the last 20yrs as all the audio businesses have either transitioned to custom home theater and don't demo anything, only sell super high end and carry very little stock, sell online only, or have gone belly up. I had to drive 2hrs to listen to my speakers before buying.
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Personally, I have not heard the new Belles amp. Currently, the Belles 150a Reference V2's in mono configuration are driving the bottom half of my Legacy speakers. The Belles are great. I bought these in the blind. Nearly all of my purchases are components with good street cred/no audition. Where could one possibility go in this new world to audition a unit anyway? If in doubt, purchase from a company with a liberal trial and good return policy. That Audible Illusions is a wonderful unit. The only reason for selling mine years ago was the lack of remote control. Your system looks to be a winner! |
How about two outta' three? |
The fact of the matter is high end stores may be accessible in big cities but high end components never are. By the time we drill down to exactly what we want and even if we find say a dealer who carries Synergistic Research he will never have in stock the ones we want to audition. No dealer has any Swarm or Tekton in stock- impossible! Is there anyone here lives within driving distance of being able to hear a Raven, Onkk Cue, Schroeder, or Herron?
This is why all the guys I know who have actually heard a lot of the good stuff, they are like willgolf and have flown all over the world. This stuff is just that rare and hard to find. It seems like there's a lot only because the internet makes it so easy to find anything anywhere no matter how rare. Great for electrons, perfect for pixels, don't do squat for listeners.
When my dealer - who had flown all over listening to everything, for years and years- retired and I lost my connection I had to learn how to use the internet. Its a different approach but it has been working just fine for me. I do like big_greg and search with a plan, read everything I can find, and usually as the final step and whenever possible talk to the builder. Following this approach I have not only never been disappointed, I have actually never failed to be satisfied beyond all expectation.
Do it right and I don't think it matters where you live. Internet, UPS, and a brain- all you need.
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Wow, a lot of nice comments. I live 2 hrs from any reputable High end store. I also relied on reviews and personal references like from J. Rutan who I admire for his 30 yrs of experience in the business. That gives me some sort of confidence. Is that feeling you get when you are talking with honest sellers. Regardless, I believe that High end stores are not easily accessible except on the big cities. Maybe times and economic pressures are driving a change. There is a lot you can buy on the web and some allow for audition at home and return for a small fee if at all. This might be the way for a lot of us. Personal audition is the ultimate test, but I have to agree with one comment, sometimes it sounds better in the listening room than at home. Here is what I can deduce when buying without auditioning, If you can talk to some one that have put together equipment like yours, they have a better idea what are good combinations and give you meaningful advice. at the end is your budget that decides. thank for all your comments. |
I worked for a boutique speaker manufacturer in Australia, almost all of his customers are people who either fly in or drive quite a distance to audition equipment (reputation). John Rutan and
David Belles
have obviously achieved good reputations.
Through my work, I was fortunately exposed to a lot of very different technologies and products, of varying efficacy.
After moving to a very remote part of Texas, I have had to rely on reviews, Agon and other forums to introduce myself to a broader range of products and technologies. The purchase of a Datasat RA-2400 was a lucky (educated) guess, that I hoped if a bad fit for my system I could sell out with minimal loss.
I also purchased a Cambridge 4K Blu-ray player off reviews.
So I'm in the same boat, informed trial and error!
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I've been disappointed more often buying something that I heard in person. In two cases that spring to mind, I was in a hifi store just browsing around and heard something that caught my ear and seemed like a great deal. I didn't do any research, didn't read any reviews, just relied on what I heard with my own ears in the listening room. It wasn't until I got home and listened for a while that a particular shortcoming or another reared its ugly head.
Most of the time I make purchases with intent. That is to say that I'm looking for a particular piece that has certain sonic characteristics, and also has the right connectivity to work with the rest of my system. I do a lot of research, using both professional and user reviews here and and other places, being careful to "read between the lines". I'm almost always happy and satisfied with those purchases. In most cases, the professional and user reviews are based on extensive listening and tend to help me avoid characteristics that are not to my liking. |
I was able to listen to my first pair of good speakers before I bought them. Almost everything else, the opposite was true. The integrated amp was the biggest leap for me, probably due in part to it being a big leap money-wise as well. No regrets.
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I live an hour and a half from any place where I could listen to any systems so I basically bought everything unheard. I did know from past experience what to expect as I had owned older versions of what I bought many years ago. I found a dealer that would work with me, offer a discount and ship for free. I made one salesman a very happy guy I know. My quest was to listen to a cd collection of 500 I had kept stored away but had little time to listen to them. After retiring I decided to go crazy again and I did.....! I will not go into what my system is as I do not want to get slammed here for what I should have bought. Bottom line is that I am very pleased with my system and my "perfect" speakers. |
I have purchased everything unheard. I used to rely on specs and now, as millercarbon stated, I rely on sound impressions from multiple sources, if they are available. I would love to have a pair of Tyler Acoustics Halo speakers, but there isn’t enough information out there. I will probably go with a pair that have user and professional reviews. I live in a rural area and trying to sell used equipment is a hassle. |
From his reputation, it sounds like if you were going to follow the recommendation of someone, John Rutan of Audio Connection is the right person. |
Like many others have noted here, I also do a lot of research / review reading if I'm going to purchase audio equipment blindly, without in person audition / listening.
I bought my Zu DW's blindly, mostly because of the rave reviews and the modest return policy (60 day in home trial). Great sounding speaker, huge improvement over what I previously, still very happy with these speakers.
After reading many reviews, I'm about to do it again, leaning towards picking up a Rogue Audio Sphinx, but that purchase my be a "used" piece that I pick up off of the Audiogon
classifieds. (I missed out on a few GREAT Sphinx deals the past few weeks, keeping my eyes open) |
Hi all, firstly I’d like to pass on my best wishes to everyone suffering this scary time.
At least we have our music to keep us sane.
Anyway back to the original question.
Yes most of my equipment was purchased without auditioning as I live in a small town in a small country way down south with no access to a hifi shop.
All my new equipment was heavily researched on the internet and so far I’m very happy with my purchases. Been lucky I guess.
I’m back at work now as we’re recovering nicely with no new CV19 cases over the last few days.
So not spending so much time listening to music as no longer locked down.
Fingers crossed!
Keep safe n well.
Cheers! Tony.
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That is really a good question, lobinero. Here is my Nickels worth-
You'd think that a town big enough to have the current Super Bowl Champions would have some decent 2 channel audio stores. KC doesn't. None of my gear that I presently own, did I have the chance to audition. I purchased my equipment solely on recommendation (Nelson Pass, Sean Casey, Terry London) and reviews/ Audiogon. Here is what I put together, most used, demo, open box or refurbished.
Pass Labs XA-25 amp
MicroZOTL mz2 preamp
Mytek Brooklyn DAC
Musical Surroundings Nova Phonomena
Rotel RCD-1072 CD player
Marantz tt-15
Hana SL- new
REL t5i
Zu DW speakers with Druid Mk 4 drivers
Zu Event Interconnects- new
Zu Mission PWR cords
Furman power strip
My last purchase was the MicroZOTL mz2. (UPS delivered on Saturday) Wow!, this thing really sounds good. It has great synergy with the Pass XA-25. The sense of space/air/openess is remarkable. Could this piece be the audio equivalent of drafting Patrick Mahomes ... (sorry had to throw that in).
I have several pieces that did not make the present line up. A Supratek Sauvignon that I am determined to do some tube rolling with and re-insert in the line-up. I also have an Audio Research LS-3.
The biggest lesson I've learned in audio is about synergy. Some good quality pieces, just don't sound good with other good quality pieces.
Yes, having a good HiFi shop in town would have made this much easier. For the money I have invested, I would have been farther along in the journey.
Sound quality wise collectively... I'd say these dogs will hunt!
Oh! Forgot to say IMHO
Any comments?
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Try living in Alaska! Most of the time. AGon has been very helpful. I have to read many posts, consider the source, etc. Also try to find good used when possible to limit exposure. Not disappointed yet. Ok, one PC was so stiff I can hardly use it in my gear. |
I grew up in L.A. and always had a plethora of hifi stores to haunt and harass. It's something that got me to fully expect an in-store audition. Now that I'm 3000 miles from anything more audio-oriented than an Office Max, I rely on audio mags and websites like this and I never, never get something that I must jump through hoops to return.
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my first system was back in the early 70's when 4 chanell was in. i bought a marantz 4 chanell reciever and 4 marantz speakers and the gerrard zero 100 turntable. i later stepped up to the marantz 4300 reciever, 4 bose 901 series 2 speakers and a pioneer pl-51 direct drive turntable. the only one i auditioned was the 901's!! i still have the 901's today!!! |
I too am an average guy. I don't have the best and the latest, but I have patiently and carefully put together my systems over the years to arrive at a sound I am happy with and proud of. I live in the Canadian north, several hours of driving from proper hi-fi dealers. With that, I've bought several gears online, sans audition of course. I had to rely on reviews and feedback too. Anyway, if I didn't like a gear's place in à particular system, I sold them back. |
@lobinero - If you are making a major purchase from someone on the verge of retirement. Definitely ask if he is selling the business to anyone (who will support his legacy equipment). If he isn't, ask for schematics and parts list so you can provide to any technician who may work on your stuff in the future. Why would he say "no"? |
Like sandthemall I didn’t listen to the amp, pre-amp, speakers or turntable before I bought them the past few months. I relied upon reviews and the comments of people that had purchased the items and heard them in their homes. When the reviews and comments pretty much agreed that the sound and functioning were pleasing, at that point I made the purchase.
i’m a bit different at this forum because I wasn’t looking to spend very much to get the ultimate sound. I’m sure that spending thousands more on equipment would bring better sound, but I am satisfied with what I bought after listening to a very pedestrian system for 30 years. Also, unless I was willing to put considerable money into the source music (e.g., purchasing $50-$100 enhanced def records to play on my $2,000 TT), buying more expensive equipment wouldn’t make as much sense for me. Not saying that this is how it should be done, but when you know ahead of time the amount you are willing to spend, then that informs your buying choices. Enjoy your new equipment — it sounds very nice.
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I'm a bad example...except my first two bookshelf speakers I got at circuit city in my twenties, everything I've bought since has never been auditioned. But I tend to research the heck out of everything. I learned early on not to worry about specs.
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I will post a review once I get it. I am pretty convinced it will match well with my speakers. One piece of news that concerns me is that David Belles is retiring.The Virtuoso line is considered his best work. I wonder how is this going to affect parts and service? |
I don't think David Belles ever designed a bad component, and he's been working on the Virtuoso for years (it was originally supposed to have rolled out 2 or 3 years ago), so I can't imagine how you could be disappointed. Because of the delay, there are very few still actually in customers' hands, and hence virtually no third-party feedback. Keep us posted! |
Interesting. In the beginning and for a good 10 to 15 years I was settled in the camp of buying only what you've heard- and preferably at home. I was convinced, especially in the beginning, that a lot of these technical design features really mattered. That specs and measured performance really mattered. Over time, as listening to one thing after another proved that was all wrong, that all went away. There was a time when I would pay attention to all that stuff, even though I knew it doesn't really matter. But reality wore me down. Now I only pay attention to the one thing that matters, how it sounds. I read reviews paying almost no attention to anything other than how it sounds. Now well into a dozen years doing this I have yet to be disappointed in a purchase.
Don't get me wrong. There are a few technical considerations that do matter. Speaker sensitivity and impedance does need to be within some generally amplifier friendly range or you'll never be able to find an amp. Cartridge output, ditto. Hmmm... I seem to be running out of specs that matter.
Oh well. Point being, if you were happy with the listener impressions you read for this amp then probably you will be happy. If you relied on anything else I wish you good luck.
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Never heard but they have a sterling reputation. You have to look at the design features (usually stated in reviews or maker’s website). The big elements with amps are: Class of operation e.g. Class-A, class-AB, class-d, etc.. Each class has positives and negatives. Next is global feedback. Global feedback, when used in excess, will make the amp’s specifications look great but can make it’s sound "uptight" or closed-in, constricted. My amp uses no global feedback. Finally, you must know if the amp will "work and play well" with your speakers. There are well known parameters that will predict if your amp is a good match. Good Luck!
P.S. I've purchased many items without hearing but ALWAYS a good idea to hear first.
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