Doozy of an amp question

There is no way I would spend that much money, perhaps get lucky with used, let a good find be the determinant.

That SIM 861 is 155lbs shipping weight. They have the pair of Mono Block 400’s, shipping 33 lbs each, and that big MC 1502 is very similar to a pair of MC275’s, split the weight, perhaps start with one Stereo, add the 2nd when another pops up.

My right knee has hurt for years, since the last time I lifted my 80lb McIntosh MC2250 out of a low shelf. I think a 3rd meniscus tear.

Which Dali speakers ?

I'd guess the Mac would be easier to resell if you ever wanted to swap it.

You didn't specify a budget but my forever amps would be the pair of Nagra HD mono's listed on the 'Gon if I could afford them!

I can’t answer your question directly and admittedly have not heard the Macintosh amp. I have heard  the simaudio. I’ve also owned a couple of  SimAudio products and I found them to be very well built, reliable, and competent.

I can appreciate the difficulty you have with in-home auditions. Even if you can’t do that, I suggest you try to listen to these components at a dealer location because I think the McIntosh house sound and the sim  house sound are quite different. it seems likely if you like one, you may not favor the other. The Macintosh amps I have heard tend to be sweet, critics would say dark and veiled, proponents would say musical. The simaudio Amp is more detailed and transparent, critics would say dry and analytical although that would not be my view, I think it delivers to the speaker the signal it receives without coloring it inany way, not a bad attribute for an amp. Although it’s always better to listen in your own set up, I think if you could hear these two components at dealer locations, you could at least get a good read on which House sound you like because they are very different.
good luck!

I would look for an ARC amp to match the preamp you own

There's no way of knowing in advance how two components will align with each other. Actually, three components, the speakers, power amp, and preamp. I'm not an ARC guy, but I agree with jperry's comments that ARC is the safe choice. Anything else, the results could be anything, and odds for a mismatch are good.

I agree with jperry and lynn_olson. Nothing will match with your ARC preamp like an ARC amp.

There are so many BP much better then that Mc parts quality leaves a lot to be desired, I owned a audio store for years belong to many audio clubs 

what are you speakers is the 1st question how big is your room ,how loud  do you want to play it ,your speakers and their efficiency first and foremost.

the Coda 50wpc 5.5 pure class A for $6500 a Great Amplifier to start this , Coda has excellent class AB amps that have 3 power  to choose from up to 18 wpc to start into pure class A bias , what’s your budget too , Pass Labs 

some very good classD  amps using Gan Fet technologies  I have the Latest 

Very high current monoblocks  from classD audio .com  excellent and would never know what it is it judt get out of the way of the music ,and power to spare. And under $2500;can  competes with much more expensive amps. Lots of good amps out there to choose from.

+1 for ARC or VTL or VAC as other options.

Not a MAC fan and heard the Sim 761 the baby brother of the 861. I loved the 761 and found it similar sonically to the Benchmark AHB2 but not as sterile. I love the AHB2 but the 761 was definitely a better version of the AHB2. The 761 is very detailed just like the AHB2. 

If you want that detail, then the 861 would be the way to go. If you want Class A warmth or tube sound you are not getting it with the Sim. I have a CODA #16 which is a Class A amp. I would not mind having the 761 or 861 for my office system so I could flip back and forth with my Livingroom CODA #16.

I moved from PassLabs to Esoteric to a used ARC LS10 / D240 MkII and haven’t found a need to change until the LS10 was damaged in transit and I let it go. I’ve retained the D240 because it’s fully balanced differential design. 120W pc of musical SS clarity and musicality. They make a higher power D400 set that could even better suit your speakers. I’m not pushing this specific amp series but showing how the used ARC options can work really well when paired well preamp to amp and amp to speakers.

I use an upgraded AV preamp now to feed the ARC. Ppl won’t believe how good it sounds. At USD$12-1800 it’s an easy entry test for you to try with your preamp.

I've worked on a couple of stereo tube amps, one was a Mac. Never again as was pointed out, the weight is killer.

If you wish to re-tube the Mac, that's 8 power tubes. There's an old adage. SS amps will require x times the cost of a tube amp for similar tone. Dunno if this still exists tho.

Mac has been bought and sold:

https://www.strata-gee.com/mcintosh-group-acquired-by-bose-does-this-deal-make-any-sense/

As for making a decision, if possible, work with a local high end audio shop and take them home and try various amps in your price range. Take note: you can't put a review up to your ear and listen to it. As mentioned, there's a synergy that occurs with your equipment and with your room.

I know you are looking for SS benefits in amplification but there is something to be said for the combination or your preamp with the ARC Ref 160. To my ears magic in musicality.  I do not like the Mac 1502.  To me, recessed mids.  I have not heard the SIM 861 but have read and heard good things about it.  Also consider auditioning a Burmester 218 or 909.  Tube like qualities of liquidity, staging and imaging with solid state control, speed and dynamics.  Also, accurate timbre.  

ARC Ref 160 with your preamp and you are done IMHO.

I must admit I’m a McIntosh fan so with that would be my recommendation, both for sound, build quality, resale value, and being able to be repaired. Since you already like the sound I think you’ll be happy with the amp for a very long time. Also I wouldn’t worry about Bose buying them, they’ve been bought and sold many times throughout their 70 plus years (people forget about Clarion) and they’ve maintained their autonomy producing a first rate product with world class customer service and support. Just my opinion and I hope this helps with your decision. 

Not sure of the orientation here. "my speakers are Dalis" reads like, "my car is Ford" -- Is it a Fiesta or a GT?

Knowing only "ARC REF 10 and Dali", an ARC amplifier would pair with the ARC 10, but who knows the rest.

Sim is Canadian? If so, you may want to make your decision sooner rather than later as there may well be tariffs added to the price.

I haven’t heard the specific amps but I have owned McIntosh C2600/MC 302 and currently Moon /Simaudio 791/860A V2. 
 

The Moon is more dynamic and detailed than McIntosh in my opinion. It was an upgrade to me. 

I believe the Moon amp sounds ‘close’ to Audio Research Amps - I didn’t want to deal with tubes  

Ultimately follow your ears  Mc will have resale and the Moon has a 10 year warranty (neither will leave you high and dry)

I've herd the Mc but not the Sim. Your price point is some where around 17-22K  based on the retail of these amps?  

You have a Ref 10- arguably the best preamp ARC made on of the best every built by anyone. Your sound signature will come from that preamp and then your speakers. The power amp is 3rd on the totem pole. 

I'd give serious consideration to a pair of ARC Ref 250SE used. You can get them in great shape for 12K if you can manage a little negotiation. 

A Ref 160s for 12K would be a good option as well.

If your preamp was a lesser mortal other amps may be helpful but your preamp is the Formula 1 of automobiles so you need to performance match to it. ARC is designed to perform best with it's own family. 

The REF10 will pair very nicely with PASS Labs amps.  My mono blocs never make it out of Class A operation.  

Regards,

barts

Dali Epicon 8.

I understand the OP has an issue with fan noise on the big ARC amps. 

Without demos, buying is risky and resale value is always consideration.  That said, few folks buy HiFi gear looking forward a 'flip'.

Mac has a following, but it seems that Mac is a 'love it or not' brand, with little middle ground.  I would definitely demo this Mac...

I agree that ARC will be a synergistic, high SQ choice.  Perhaps you live close enough to a dealer to arrange a demo. 

I’m not a Mac fanboy, but if you are looking for a tube sound, check out PS Audio. Your ARC preamp will play well with their BHK 300’s or their new BHK 600’s. Both come with Gold Lion 6922’s in the input section and tube rolling is a snap.

All the best.

Nobody mentioned Accuphase??

Yes as somebody said above it is the Epicon 8 and I don't want an amp with a fan.

I can go into the city and listen to the amps and they want me to listen to the 761 which would save me a lot of money from the 861. Then I read that the 861 on this site is 25% better. That's a lot of better but also a lot of money and I may be overdoing it. I listened to Mcintosh at Harry's of VPI house. It was great but he has quite a setup along with Blades. Unforgettable.

But boy is that 1502 heavy but a lot cheaper.

I have a pre so I am looking for an amp. The 761 sounds like it would be very good but then people on this site say the 861 is so much better. But 22K!!!

My Epicon 8's loved my Pass XA`160.8 mono blocks, and are now loving my friends much less powerful and expensive BAT VK-80 tube amp...

I own the SIM audio 861 upgrading from a SIM audio w8, this amp is phenomenal it will go up against amplifiers in the 40 to $60,000 price range from other companies and be as good or better yes $22,000 is a lot of money but it is a lot better than the 761 at least 25% better or more, I compared both and that's why I decided to buy the 861 it's definitely a beast of an amp at 125 lb but once you hear it you won't buy the 761 It's that much better.

I'm sorry to hear that. It only makes me want it more. Now to find the full 22k...

For that kind of money you could fly to Vancouver CA and listen to the Space Tech Lab 845 hybrid amp he builds.  Probably the best I've ever heard and you would still have money left over.

Unfortunately SETs and I want fully balanced. It's always something.

just a little add-on comment I also believe that the sim audio 861 amplifier is better than the Macintosh amps.

I own a Zesto Bia 120 amp, and it is my favorite in a long life of many power amps. I find it has a clarity balanced by a smidge of warmth that really works on the wide range of music I listen to daily. 
 

You may find a used Bia 120, which you can get upgraded inexpensively. Or try out the newer, more versatile Bia 200. 
 

Zesto deserves more attention than it gets. I’m all in - phono section, pre amp and amp. But I ran the amp with the very good PS Audio BHK hybrid preamp, and that combo worked great, too.

@roxy927

I don't know about a lot of these amps but pairing AR products likely makes a lot of sense.  Outside of that something like a Mac seems like something of a sound favorable to you, but get one in your house with return privilege if you don't like it, same with anything else.  Also, when you're quibbling around about something at the $22K level there's an ocean of good stuff thereabouts or for less.  You do not want to end up in regret mode when you could be in happy value mode.  Regardless, what do you really think about someone telling you something at that price point is 25% better than something else?  I'm sure you've heard of diminishing returns, and that ain't it.  Something is wrong there.  Good luck with your quest.  

If you’re spending that kind of moola I would strongly consider taking a trip to where XYZ gear is sold, or visiting an audiophile who would be willing to host for an hour or two. If you fly, give yourself at least a day or two to recover your hearing.

I would not trust the review of any audiophile, no matter how famous they are, whether they write for a well established magazine, webzine, or make Youtube videos. I have met very few people whose tastes are similar to mine. Listening for yourself is essential.

But ... if you are not familiar with the sonics of different families of amplifiers ... Class AB transistor, Class A transistor, push-pull pentode, push-pull direct-heated triode, single-ended direct-heated triode (SET), Class D MOSFET, and Class D GanFET, you need to get familiar with the sonics and how well they match with your favorite type of speaker.

The name brand is not important, at all, compared to the amplifier class and how well it is designed. It’s like a good dinner at a quality restaurant: you need good ingredients (parts quality), a good recipe (the circuit design), and a chef with good taste (the actual designer, not the manufacturer). If you like a fantastic steak, don’t go to a vegetarian restaurant, and vice versa.

I mean these days you can get used the Ayre monos MX R for a good price or a VAC 200iq for half of that. The problem is no auditions. You are flying on comments, reviews, reputation and the seat of your pants.

Of course I would prefer not to spend this kind of money or even deal with these kind of weights.

I would contact ARC, let them know about your preferences and have them suggest an ARC power amp to meet your needs….

Simple solution…. No pearl clutching or self induced nuttiness….

Have you ever heard an ARC Ref 75? SE or original? There is so much great sound across the frequency spectrum in that amp it seems like magic. I haven’t heard the Ref 160 also mentioned above but it may also share this same magical characteristic. 
 

After I got the Ref 75 I stopped looking for amps. Turned into my forever amp. 

Fuel for thought- regarding 761 vs 861…

If you want to pilot the sound consider buying a 761 and if it doesn’t fit your needs (i.e. want a little more) buy a second and run them in mono. 

Isn't there a lot of controversary about that? I mean running stereo amps in mono even though it can be done?

Amps that are designed to be bridged into a high powered mono block, often have trouble with low impedance loads...different than simply using one channel of each amp, which can improve sound quality but certainly questionable way to spend money...

@roxy1927 

Agree that best to demo as your subjective personal preferences is very important in light of the funds you’re committing to the purchase.  Otherwise you’re gambling. But, if purchased used you can resell then try again.

@roxy1927 I'm sure there's a controversy with some.  Moon has a history of designing amps for bridging via selector switches on the rear. 

It's just one option as there are many excellent options shared by others on this thread.  

Recommend anyone still looking for that perfect amp these days give one of the newer GaN based class d amps a shot. I have the new model from Class D audio and it is a true revelation in all regards including sound quality, cost and size. Just what the doctor ordered!  Running off a Schit Freya S pre-amp. 

I have the Moon 891/861 combination plus the 810LP phono pre-amp, and the Moon 820s power supply, and the sound is excellent, detailed, musical, dynamic, and very spacious with excellent bass.  I do not know how the sound could be improved.  Like one of the other comments above, $22k for the 861 is a good value against much more expensive hi-end amps.  Finally, the 891 interface with the remote control is amazing with its superior ergonomics and dial to turn to control volume.  There is no other remote control I have seen that is even close.