Demo'ing Class A amps, Appreciation Suggestions from those who recently been there

What about an Accuphase?

Firstwatt does not double down at 4ohms as the Pass line does.
As my speakers are set in the 4 ohm setting, FirstWatt is out.

Accuphase. Yes, what do you know 1st hand about this brand?

If people are in this price range, my three suggestions, for you to sample different takes are the following:

Pass
Ayre
Luxman

and since you are coming from tubes, might even want to try out the ARC integrated.

I think between the Pass, Ayre, Luxman triad you’ll definitely find your happy place, but if you are coming from FirstWatt, and already know you like the Pass I doubt you'll go any other way, still, worth you to listen to them and come back and tell me what you think of the other two.

Thank you all for the ideas. 
Yes I left out the 4 ohm situation.
Luxman is available here. Triad?
Will investigate, thank you all.

Hi OP,

Triad: Three of something.  I meant if you listen to Pass, Luxman and Ayre (that's' the triad) you'll have a really good idea of what you want.

Best,

E

some of the First Watt amps do double down into 4 ohms. Even if they don't, that doesn't mean they aren't a good match for your speakers. Depends on if you drive them into clipping and how much headroom you need. 

I have a Pass XA30.8 that I believe is going to be here for the long haul. Stays in Class A up to 30W at 8 ohms and does easily double down. Puts out much more if you drive it past class A but doubt if you ever would. 

If class A is a requirement then I suppose you know Ayre, Naim, and Linn are all out. I have had the Naim 250DR for extended periods and it is a wonderful amp,  worth a listen. Should be able to pick one up in the $3000 range.

A new Clayton Audio S40 is $4500 new. I’d also look at a Valvet E2, and although it only does 20wpc @ 4Ohms it’s said to be capable of driving speakers like yours and may be fine as you don’t tend to listen too loudly. Last, there’s a used Plinius SA103 available on US Audio Mart for about $5k, which conveniently has a low-bias switch for non-critical listening or if you just want to leave the amp powered on to stay warmed up and ready to play. I think the Valvet May be the best sounding overall, but if you’re looking for a little more warmth/bloom I’d get the S40. Anyway, just three more options FWIW, and best of luck.

Thanks for the ideas. I will check them all out.

Class A not required.

Only seeking musicality.

The 12 wpc Leben I am listening to now is
more than enough power for my use.

Ah. So here’s another idea — there’s a McCormack DNA 0.5 available on eBay for $575. If you buy it and send it to SMcAudio for full mods you’ll basically have a new SOTA amp for well under $5k with great musicality. And your energy bill will thank you. Just another option since Class A not a necessity.

Soix,

Possibly a route to better sound but I am in trial mode
now. Why don't you update it and then loan it to me? haha

First Watt amps to my ears are nothing special.  Built a class A amp following the First Watt design but point-to-point wired and used a few better parts and that easily beats the First Watt.

Happy Listening

Might want to keep your eyes our for a BEL (Brown Electronic Lab) preferably Mk. 5.
That was a 50W giant killer.   

I just sold one, otherwise...

Clayton Audio is still in business and makes some of the very best sounding pure class A SS amps around. I love mine 🙂.

Air Tight ATM1s. With 2 inputs it can be played as an integrated. 36 watts with EL34. 

I had tubes for many years. Since switching to Pass I have zero interest in tubes. Pass is stupendously good

As the owner of Ayre gear, be advised their products are very neutral, typically double at 4 ohms and are stable down to 2 ohms. Excellent customer support from Ayre. Pass Labs amps sound more like your tube gear and are of great quality. Another brand to consider pre-owned is Mark Levinson. More power than you are seeking (as are Ayre amps), built like a tank, stable to 2 ohms, tremendous power reserves. (I also own a 20 yr old Levinson amp that still sounds great.) I’ve listened to a current $10k Luxman integrated amp and liked the sound, but it clipped badly at moderately high volumes with my 84 dB sensitivity speakers. Haven’t listened to your speakers so I cannot say any more.  Happy listening. 

Don’t know if I’m too late to chime in, but I’m a huge fan of Balanced Audio Technology (BAT). I’ve got an older VK-600 with bat pack and love it paired with a tube vk-5i with my planar Apogee speakers. Granted I’m on the other end of efficiency from what you are looking for, but I love their purist, keep the design as straight forward as possible and built like a tank philosophy.

@parker65310

What model Apogees do you have? I have the Duetta Signatures and I power them with a BAT VK- 250 and use a BAT VK 42SE preamp. 

I would try First Watt SIT-3.  I think you might really enjoy it.  Almost tube like in sound and simply beautiful.  Reno HiFi allows in home demos.  

Sumo Gold

@chorus,
What did you not like about the 120S you sold? Can you describe what was missing for you? Much has to do with speakers too, of course.

I have to ask, and know a few who bounced back and forth between that 120 amp and SS and back to tube later, not having bought the right SS amp. You’ve already demo’d the Pass XA-25, and with "94db" sensitivity speakers, that should be a really good benchmark reference, pending a good preamp and good speaker matching.

@chorus, I recommend trying to get a listen to the Bakoon 13R class A SS amplifier. It works extremely well with Cube Audio Nenuphar’s. Suggest reading Srajan’s review on Six Moons. It’s extremely compact, a work of art. It has its own volume control and two sets of rca inputs. It also has a BNC input reserved for use with a Bakoon dac. If you were in the U.K. we could lend you one to try.

That speaker is very tube friendly. We have a good number of Tannoy customers using our M-60s (60 watts class A) with them.

Some excellent thoughts here, thank you. 
Atmasphere, if tubes were an option, would work.

I rule out defunct companies  BEL, Clayton etc as risky investments.

Bakoon looks like a good company to follow in the future.
When makers or reviewers do not give the 4 and 2 ohm wpc,
the amp is likely none too stout.

Class A is compelling.
That said A/B  has advantages.
Naim and Linn are cults in some countries. 

What was wrong with Cary?  Sonically nothing.
I heard the resolution from a  $300 class A 7 wpc
kit amp and knew I wanted more. Willing to give up
the hum chasing, tube testing, blast furnace of the
tube world for now. 

I tend to agree with Mr. Savato. Once you go Pass,
you never go back. 

I had thought that there must be another S.S. amp maker
who would copy the Pass house sound but apparently 
"Nobody Does it Better".
 
Still I am overturning rocks in pursuit of the thrown bone.

chorus, 
Reason I asked is the 120S with KT120s, stock input tubes, and stock caps is kind of a dry sounding amp (imo) in comparison to others I've owned, demo'd, heard several from Cary and Inspire.  The Pass amps, even with a good tube preamp have their own house sound.  Low-watt triode is a different chase, and the right speaker matching is the key there too. 

Cooney,

I had Golden Lion KT88s. 
The Leben 300 I just demoed was a step up from the Cary.
I am most likely going with the Pass Int25. No tubes anywhere. 
The whole point I am making is the Pass House Sound
is better than ANYTHING I have tried to date.
And by a significant margin. 
I am open to being persuaded but please before suggesting anything, please have heard the Pass 25 Amp or Int.
and then tell me what you liked better. Thanks

@chorus

Willing to give up the hum chasing, tube testing, blast furnace of the tube world for now.

Well I think you will still have the mini blast furnace affect with the class A XA25.

Clayton Audio still sells, fixes and upgrades gear.  Just had my amp upgraded. Great amps. 

Well I think you will still have the mini blast furnace affect with the class A XA25.

That's the thing about class A. People have often commented about the heat they think our amps make, but compared to a true class A solid state amp of the same power, the heat is almost identical. The class of operation makes far more difference than whether the amp is tube or solid state!

But, if you want linearity in the output section, class A is the way to go no ifs ands or buts. High end audio is all about getting the recording to play back as if the music is *real*; hence class A amplifiers.

Since you are open to used, have you considered older generations of Pass amps?
I have read that each generation does sound a somewhat different.
I have an original Aleph 3, and it is so sweet.

chorus OP15 posts04-01-2020 12:15am

Cooney,
I had Golden Lion KT88s.
The Leben 300 I just demoed was a step up from the Cary.
I am most likely going with the Pass Int25. No tubes anywhere.
The whole point I am making is the Pass House Sound
is better than ANYTHING I have tried to date.
And by a significant margin.
I am open to being persuaded but please before suggesting anything, please have heard the Pass 25 Amp or Int.
and then tell me what you liked better. Thanks

Not into persuading in this case - now reading back over your initial requirements and referring back to a $5k used budget, but can tell you hands down, if your only reference was a CAD-120S with KT88s, there is a lot more ground to cover and that’s one of my least favorite amps in the whole lineup, of all amps made by Cary Audio. That’s a different beast, less about finesse IMHO.

Live in Pass Land since the early 70s. Was a SS guy for 40+ years.  Started at the same speaker factory too. Heard most of the important amps, way back to modded Threshold, .5 and .8 Pass amps again recently, and now FW forward. Honestly, it just comes down to what sounds best with your speakers for your ears - only you will know that. If you are convinced about SS, it’s a moot point. Of the lot, like the lower power XA-25 as you already noted. Yes, that Leben is neat too. Good choice for SS with the XA-25 amp with a good 6SN7 based tube preamp brings it to another level.  Once again, "tube", not where you are going.  Talked with Nelson about this hybrid combo a few times before, many customers doing that. Have a few friends who ran this same combo with similar speakers throughout 2019, and while we all liked it, all three of the group went back to higher power tube amps or more local tube mono amps in 2020, but once again - all speaker, room, and hearing preference. I still find even the best SS fatiguing for long listening sessions, we all hear differently I guess. Read up on on it, PASS truly takes 4-24hrs to truly warm up and sound right, some leave them on 24x7. My tube monos warm in 45-60 minutes, don't run hot, and sound amazing but won't suggest that. Best of luck on the SS adventure.   

Deco,

The Class A wait is downside. Advantage smaller amp. 
Leave it on unless you will be gone an extended time.

I have been advised the 6SN7 preamp tube is the way to go
if you buy any Amp. Love that Supratek line.
I am not opposed to a tube preamp. 
I had a tube preamp- the Audible Illusions L3B. 
Sold it as no preamp sounded better than a preamp
but that is another kettle o'fish.

Nelson advised me once that
"If you have to have a tube then consider".... 
I imagine his counterpart Wayne is making that call.

Your direction is very helpful, thank you. My speakers
allow for treble presence and treble energy adjustments
so I think I may dodge the fatigue factor. But maybe not.

The thing missing with the Cary is the resolution I hear
with the small Class A monos I have now. 

What brand/model of tube amps do you think might be 
a match?  Not the Cary 120 apparently.  High power not
a true need for me. Low power seems to be the more
musical of the two. Odd that NP's cheapest lowest
powered amp is the most musical in his line.
Perhaps he is working on a 12.5 wpc version now.

I have heard the Line Magnetic line and liked them.
Not in the VAC price range but they seem great.
Your suggestions? Thank you.

  

@chorus , 

Are these an accurate photo of your FSM speakers?
http://usr.audioasylum.com/images/3/38319/fsm.com.jpeg

Are you using the 16ohm tap on your speakers when testing?

With FSMs, (I'm not a Tannoy expert - at all) but It's appears (as you are) worth doing more in-depth research on these before buying any amplifier(s). These speakers you have can be a bit picky.  While they seem efficient, doing some quick checking on my end there are repeated suggestions about some struggling with inadequate tube amps to drive these properly, and a few caving in to use "transistors based amps" to get the best out of them. Interesting. Digging some more, now I can see a bit more what brought you to Pass., and why you are reaching out for suggestions. There are more than a few that have matched up the XA-25 in this case. I'd call and talk to Wayne at Pass and again his perspective, first. Then, if you look at any tube amps again, I would look for musical 50w amps before low watt SET, but that's just me reading about your speakers some. More poking around with the Tannoy crew will help . 

Pass is the best. Long term reliability with class A heat can be a problem. Pass uses excellent components which achieve 15 to 20 years of trouble free operation.  Heat becomes a very important factor with class A.  Check the warranties. 

cakyol,
In March I had the Pass XA25 in my system for 2 weeks running
continuously. It never become too warm to keep a hand on.
My tube amp put off 10 times the heat it seems.
I live in Phoenix Arizona.  We know something about heat. 

Pass has said they seldom see a repair issue on their gear.
Further they say that their caps are still good after 20 years.
That is a pretty solid reason to own a Pass.

They are in a state next door to AZ. Another plus.

Finally the XA25 has been marketed for 4 years now. Pass's biggest selling item. Check the Shark resale market right now. Hello New Zealand!! Price has not been raised since the inception $4,900.
As Stan used to say 'Nuff Said'

Chorus,
Okay. Looking over some old notes and references. Interesting, and a completely different direction from low watt.

"High Current Amplifier" with proper drive for the FSMs. 

SET or tube amps with fleawatt grunt isn’t going to cut it on those.

>>The bass driver units require some current to work effectively and sound right<<

Get this, I even found a few instances up to 250w-300w Threshold Monoblocks or high current Accuphase amps being used with FSMs. For testing old used lower cost amps, got any friends around with a recapped/restored Nakamichi PA-7 Stasis amp or Threshold lying around?

Or, closer to new, it woud take a few grand more over your budget, there is a Pass INT-250 in Peoria AZ, closer to you - listed right here on Agon. Bet this would do it. Good luck :)
https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lisa1b8d-pass-labs-int-250-solid-state?refsource=hifishark

Deco,

Yes that is accurate and much better than my avatar, thank you.

They have a bi-wire option on the back.
No choices for different ohms there.

On the front face there is an option to operate the system
as a 2 1/2 way i/o the standard 3 way option.

If you run it as a 2 1/2 way, the impedance changes from 8 ohm to 4 ohm.

I do prefer to listen in the 4 ohm setting. The difference is the upper dual concentric speaker will roll off at the bottom of the mid range when in the Open-4 ohm-setting. When in the Closed -8 ohm-position the same upper mid-range speaker will go all the way down to the 40hz rated bottom. Unless I have this backwards which has been known to happen.

Another feature these speakers have-Three settings each
for the following items: Presence, Roll off, and Energy. 
Gotta love the Brits! Level, -3db or -3db. I use the Level Setting.

I purchased these about 18 months ago. 
I had the caps tested and replaced. One had blown.
Interior wiring upgrade. Plugged a too large compartment
connecting hole. Replaced metal tabs post connectors with stranded
copper wire.

I have had the pleasure of speaking with Kent English at Pass.
Kent has a few larger speakers on dollies. He said that in the Pass
line he felt the XA25 was the best match for my speakers. Over the 250.8 to be precise.  It seems Mr. Pass has worked for magic on this product.

Since this purchase is significant to me I want to do my homework.
Thank you for your help with this. 

I'll  chimes in for Luxman class A amps. I've owned a Luxman Class A integrated , I drove some Living Voice Avatar 2 speaker at 94db. Luxman is very well made (picture do not do their gear justice) and they have some interesting features that can be useful. I found their sound to be rather musical with no listener fatigue, Toe taping fun but yet very detailed top to bottom, but not dry lets say a nice touch of warmth but not over done. Over all very nice amps from my experience. I'd try to have a listen see if its something your interested in. 

Only Pass Amps I have ever owned were some older Alfa O's, really older now I suppose, but they were quite nice as well if my memory serves. 

Krells New 300 integrated amp is 
Superb ,Their sliding Bias class A circuit is 
very detailed warm,Big soundstaging
and depth with Plenty of power .
$7k retail can get a bit lower ,and made in CT- U.S.A

So, I'll add my $0.02, even though this discussion is already pretty long. I am extremely happy with the Schiit Aegir. It is a champ of an amp (TM) and ridiculously low in cost. Class A, resolving, neutral, and with good power/drive. As a bonus, it has a switch on the front to de-bias the output in a standby mode. It can operate in stereo (single-ended only), or like I'm going to do soon, in mono (balanced only) for roughly double the power output.

Aforementioned Luxman and Accuphase are really really good.

Krell XD. We can debate whether it's true class A but the sound is really special. Dynamics, bass slam and all at the same time not harsh or fatiguing. Make sure you hear Krell XD ; ).

Save your money and buy a modern Class D. The Benchmark AHB2 is the one to beat. Even the run-of-the-mill Hypex models will blow away nearly any Class A. I know, I'll catch a lot of flak for this post, but just give a listen.

Have you thought about thie Sugden class A amps? In particular the signature A21se? It goes well with my tannoys, and considering you are not listening loudly, it could be a very good choice for a reasonable outlay, only $3250. It is all analog with 5 line inputs plus a fixed tape out, and a variable pre out. Other than that just a simple remote. It is all I require and has a very nice tube like sound signature. 30 watts into 8 ohms, and 40 watts into 4 ohms. It does get hot during use but that does not present any issues for me. It has a beefed up power supply to achieve the above power output. My tannoys are 90 db efficient and seem to pair very nicely with the Sugden.at only 9 or 10 o’clock. I’m getting a very decent volume in my room which Is about 16 x 14, but also open to another area or space. The Sugden company has been around for a very long time and are based in the UK, Scotland, same as tannoy, and Linn. 

Hello, tricky question you presented. After listening to tubes on your Tannoy’s, you might find SS to be a bit edgy and not as smooth and refined. Well, if that the direction you want to go in, SS will be faster and have better dynamics and more control over the music but I definitely do not feel you will stay happy over the long haul with SS when your speakers work well with tube amps. I’ve been in this hobby for 30yrs and and a lot of amps. Tube and SS.  I see some good recommendations suggested here by some audiophiles.  Put my suggestions also on your list. Threshold older SA series and T series SS. Good luck.