@exflute sounds like you have great 👂
Cable curmudgeon
I'm not an 'audiophile" but I like to think I have a good ear having been a professional musician (principal wind player in major symphony orchestras) for 50 years. A number of years ago going into an excellent audio equipment store I talked with, what seemed, a knowledgeable salesman. Being a musician experienced in audio systems but not expert on all the equipment out there I had some questions concerning high (over-priced?) end cables. The salesman assured there was an audible differencet in a demo room switching back and forth etc. After a few minutes I noticed the sound coming out of only one channel. He complemented me on my "good ear." Hmmm? A few years later when setting up my home system I investigated speaker cables. Two sets of Monster, stranded standard cable, solid core copper (used for alarm system) attached with like connecters. There was a difference. However, not in terms of better or worse: bass and treble were acceptable as was clarity loud and soft. Differences were esthetic- like asking "whose the best tenor" (I like Plácido). Now I know as a musician used to live (i.e. un-amplified) music that all I hear coming out of a loud speaker is perforce ersatz. But most everything today comes out of a loud speaker whether a rock concert or a hi-fi system so perhaps my opinion is curmudgeonly. But, for me, spending oodles of money on hyped cables, well... I liked the solid core for my alarm system- still do.
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Having a good ear and being a musician won’t get you very far in terms of being able to identify and discern differences between audio components, and that includes cables. An analogy to your situation would be a very experienced driver who drives a mid-level sedan. That person will likely have good driving skills gained through years of real-world driving experience, but this person is still in no position to discern the finer differences between two high-performance sports cars because they just don’t have the experience nor the perspective to be able to make those judgements. It’s just a different world that is loosely related but still hugely different such that one has little to do with the other. Its the same with high-end audio where you need considerable time and experience listening to lots of high-end gear to begin to be able to know what you like and how to identify the finer differences that are very important in the context of better audio systems. That you can’t hear such differences and you’re happy with alarm system wire is fine, but you’re still driving an economy car and simply don’t have the experience or perspective to appreciate what better cables bring to the table. But just because you don’t understand something doesn’t make it invalid, and there are tons of true audiophiles with years of extensive listening experience who use relatively more expensive cables not because they cost more or want to waste $$$ but because they actually sound better to their ears in the context of their systems. But, if you’re more comfortable living in ignorance and assuming more expensive cables are just hype, so be it. Leave your head buried in the sand where it’s apparently most comfortable, don’t strive to learn anything new, and live happily ever after with your alarm system wire. To each his own.
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I don't know your experience with hi-fi or your system details but if it is pleasing to you, you are doing a good job. But don't discount that other people may have highly resolving systems and have spent a lot of money getting them that way. This hobby has room for everybody, enjoy. |
Well, what a hornet's nest. I didn't know that relating my personal experience could be taken for telling anyone what to do. But SOIX, for me the music comes first, last and always and not the gadgetry. I fail to see the point of spending gobs of cash to listen to slob-art junk. And you totally miss the point of live (I.E. UN-AMPLIFIED) music. If you go to a concert the sound comes from individuals in as many points as there are musicians. The human ear is incredible in discerning this directionality and the panoply of sound cannot be transmitted by a few speakers- therefore my comment about its ersatz character. Even if you go to rock concert the individuality is destroyed by amplification. Same with recorded music and hi-fi, oh- excuse me- Audio systems. Now they may be performing wonderful tricks of electronic legerdemain but what this has to do with music- pffft. |
You're right to be judging sonic qualities by listening to acoustic music. Large-scale classical, chamber, quartets, jazz can present proper tonal qualities, dynamics, and nuances not found in electric or amplified music. I listen to mainly classical music and also attend live concerts which helps confirm realistic sound from my home system. But you need to audition different types of cables and components to know what is possible in sound reproduction. Regarding cables; speaker, interconnects, and power cables will influence sonics. There are online dealers who offer 30 or 60 day return policies allowing you to audition cables. |
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@carlsbad ....*G* Well, you've either described a beautiful lounge while preoccupied by a very interesting red wine....or a cable that should be used 'elsewhere', where I'll leave up to you... ;) On the other hand, I'm not going to be a party to lit the fire under yet another 'wire war' that can go on like a bad redux of War and Pieces.... *sigh*(channeling ....of the audiodefiled variety...) "I want to reach a higher plane where things will never be the same....' Respectfully, J |
rsf507: "@exflute sounds like you have great 👂" Not if he thinks Domingo is the greatest tenor. Oh and exflute, if you think all concert halls allow you to distinguish between the various instruments of an orchestra, then all I can say is that you may not have toured in all that many countries. There are halls that are dead and others where the acoustics are totally alive. In the latter category I would place Die Wiener Staatsoper and Das Festspielhaus in Bayreuth. |
The greater the cost the more influence confirmation bias is a factor. This applies to all components. Someone buying a $600 power cord is naturally going to hear it as "better" than a $6 cord. Blind testing between these should be done but rarely is! Instead we have poetic descriptions by the manufacturers and the golden ear crowd touting their favorite cables. |
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Hi-fi amplification is a process of limiting factors. If any single component in the signal path muddles up the sound, no other component is going to come along and put the sound back together. It could very well be the case that, because of your specific system and space, alarm cable is sufficient. For some on this forum, this is not the case. I personally stuck with lamp wire for a long time and upgraded only after A/B'ing some raw cable designed for speaker use. This was not expensive cable by any measure, but there was an improvement. This was a 4$/foot cable between a Tektron Evo amp and a pair of Klipsch Heresy's. I think your original post had an air of nihilism about it - something that reads like - it can never be as good as live, so why bother climbing the ladder. I think most of the folks here either willing to take the incremental improvements as wins, or maybe just enjoy the climb. Either way I have never encountered anyone here who wouldn't subscribe to an 'its all about the music' slogan. My only recommendation to you would be to keep an open mind if you choose to continue improving your home system. You don't need to spend thousands on speaker cable to keep up with the Jonses, but you shouldn't dismiss the experience of others when trying to identify and improve the choke-points in your personal system. On the other hand, if you're satisfied, then sit back and enjoy what you've got. I would be afraid to accidently hook the speakers up to my alarm system - but I'm kind of stupid sometimes. |
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There are many of us Olden HiFi enthusiast types, who are ’curmudgeonly’ influenced in their assessments and there are plenty to be encountered, who are at the threshold of being ’curmudgeonly’ influenced whilst making assessments. The younger generations are not too eager to be found on forums, to much exuberance 🧗♂️ for life, to be idling away as a keyboard bound professor 👨🎓 of their viewpoints. That is for the Denison's of the realm of being that belongs to the 'curmudgeonly' old and those a little old before their time. I do get excited over a Cables influence on a system, I like to experience Cable Comparisons, I t does help put a few miles on the Zimmer Frame 😁but there are systems that are not too resolving of details and there are those that can demonstrate a prowess in resolving detail. Dependent on which system type is having Cables Exchanged as a Comparison Experience, will determine how much a Cable can impact on the SQ of a System. Also keep in mind that the Connectors chosen to be used on a Cable and the Devices Chassis are also instrumental in being contributory to the perceptions being created of the SQ being produced. |
So…for filmic qualities we should only be watching surveillance camera footage? No one denies the need for nuance in hifi systems. But let’s not oversimplify things. Music is a very general category that includes live, recorded, multi-track, synthesized, etc. The notion that the "sonic qualities" of music are paradigmatically represented by live acoustic music is like saying all food should be eaten raw or that all films should simply be surveillance camera footage. Painting moved past simple portraits and landscapes to impressionism, cubism, etc. -- and, to tell the truth, even those simpler pictorial genres had a helluva a lot of interpretation and selection already built in. Any architect who built a concert hall already knew they were participating in the construction of sound. Same thing with any violin builder. The challenge is to create a technology that is expressive enough for the artist to communicate their ideas. It's not, and never was, about "realism" if that means some kind of simple isomorphism. The notion that sonic representation is necessarily sonic degradation betrays a profound naiveté about what art even is. To use it as a guide is foolhardy.
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I too was amazed by the ferocity of the attacks and how quickly they degenerated into ad hominem attacks on what seem to be perfectly valid set a observations by the OP. It made me think how people here seem to complain so bitterly about the dogmatic and hostile reactions by the folks over at ASR. In either case there is no excuse for insults when somebody has made a civil comment. |
Since seeing your posting of prog rock disdain on a recent discussion and now your strong support of this new two posts OP while insulting long time members, I would really be interested in seeing pictures of your system. You know, so we know who you really are in this audio endeavor. Because frankly, it's hard to take you seriously without it. At least for me. |
@exflute your observation is valid and results of your comparison probably accurate and as such you MUST have a good ear to detect the variances between these two specific cables Where you've stubbed your toe that has brought out some of the claws and venom of this forum, is both cables you tested are mediocre at best larryi has summed it up very concisely and now the forum sommeliers are trying to correct your path It's also not as simple as swapping one of the Monster cables for something higher up the food chain and connecting it to entry level electronics and expecting to hear the virtues of the upper end cable Entry level electronics are not capable of rendering the benefits of an upper end cable and thus you would likely report back that based on the cost you're disappointed in the performance of the cable as compared with the Monster. What would be letting you down in this example would be the electronics not the cable Do not let these responses wear you down, this is a great place to learn and the members cast a wide net of skills and opinions Happy listening and enjoy the journey |
It’s.. like... a cadre of strongly opposed street fighters moving from bar to bar, trying to wreak havoc on each other whenever and wherever they can, under some false pretense, at the drop of a hat ---while they trash establishment after establishment.
if they can’t get you through working in integrity, as that is clearly not working... they’ll commit to a grinding down in repetitive lunacy. Anything at all for their war effort... for the ill thought out and anti-intelligence, anti-thinking, anti-invention and anti-’upward, forward’ crew. They’ll do anything to press their opinions and incapacitates upon all others, out of FOMO on the capacities scale of human skill sets and intellect. I just warned y’all about this in another thread. They just don’t understand and they will commit to anything, anything at all (in the repetitive insistent intrinsically blind fondling of their own egos), to make their thoughts into your reality. No choice, really, as one’s capacity to discern and think, imagine, extrapolate, etc... and thus hear... threatens their future - threatens it...simply via existing. ~~~~~~~~~~~ One can explain to a person why they can't and are not hearing such things, and do it in the kindest most humane way possible... but every inch, word and moment of that explanation will be hated, hated to the very core, on the instinctual level. Human nature. So they can't and won't listen, it's simply not possible.. |
@exflute, the quickest way to start a fight in an empty audiophile bar is to start talking about cables, connectors, etc. I've auditioned equivalently priced equipment & systems hooked up with multi-thousand dollar speaker cables, uber expensive connectors, audiophile-grade wall outlets & wiring, sound conditioners, etc., etc., etc. compared to considerably more modestly-priced cables & hook-ups in the hundreds of dollar range and, sometimes, less. Some speaker cables for systems in the unobtainium class actually do need to be bigger, more sophisticated and, by definition, are more costly to manufacture and, thus, cost more. However, for most of the systems that mere mortals can afford, like anything else in this world, if you think you can hear a difference and/or an improvement in sonic fidelity between ... say $12,000 speaker cables over $200 cables and you like that difference and think it's worth the extra cash, then go for it. Always trust your ears! The rest is marketing, advertising & merchandising. |
Why the vitriol here? An experienced musician and lover of live music is simply doing his/her best to share an experience in a light-humored way. It's so hard to be PC on this board. So I'll try: "My opinion is that Audioquest are full of s**t". I am not saying they do not make good cables. But, if you are going adduce SCIENCE to explain the why it is worth spending $5k on a 1 meter mains cable which is attached to ~ 10m of ordinary 20 amp house wiring, attached to a circuit breaker, attached to miles of power utility cabling, to listen to music recorded in studio NOT using $5k per meter cabling to power its equipment, then:
My guess for AQ’s next trick? An audiophile circuit breaker to replace the one in your breaker box, with special filtering to prevent interference from other circuits in your home seeping into your system. Only $4,999! |
The forum requires additional moderation, for the sake of the forum, it's members, and the continuance of the fundamental intent and direction desired in any business model associated with it. As the contrary blind grind will NEVER give in. Not in this life - or the next. It requires a permanent and enforced high bar, that may be required to be continually vigilant, for the foreseeable future. |
@clearthinker Apparently your thinking isn’t as clear as you think as you completely missed the core point of my post, or maybe you just can’t understand it. Either way your comments are meaningless to me as you’re obviously clueless, which the moderators obviously recognized and acted accordingly. |
@clearthinker What a shame, you merely told @soix that you disagreed with and did not call him derogatory names, insult his taste, or tell him to get off the site. as he did to the OP. Soix: "So, what the hell are you even doing here trollsicle? Enjoy listening to your cheap-ass, crap stereo in total ignorance, attend only un-amplified acoustic performances, and while you’re at it feel free to not come back here. Your post and uninformed opinions are absolutely meaningless in the context of this site. Troll elsewhere." We all know cables are one of the best profit centers in hi-fi, perhaps that explains the ferocity which some defend them. Personally I am open to persuasion on the issue but am leaning to being skeptical for the following reasons, A.) cables get much less attention on the pro side whether it is the recording studio or the electric musician. B.) I am not aware of cables being overly significant in other mission critical electronics such as in the medical field or aeronautics or telecommunications. There is a justification in all of these areas for a well built, properly specked wire, but none of the hocus pocus that only seems prevalent among us audio hobbyists. C.) I can't overlook the fact that precious few manufacturers that I know of bother to include anything more than basic well made cables with their equipment. If it really made a difference wouldn't you want to add a $1000 power cable to you $10,000 amp to make sure your customers got the best out of it? Especially if equipment matching is part of the equations as has been frequently claimed. D.) Reviewers I respect, Darko, Lavorgna, have stated that on the scale of possible audio improvements cables are way, way down the list. Others have said that cables may change the sound but whether it is an improvement is an entirely subjective determination. As for the issue of acoustic vs electric music for evaluating "fidelity", I just don't see how anything other than acoustic music could be the standard. Yes, there is the very real issue of acoustics and the importance of the recording venue AND the very real issue that symphonic orchestras just don't play in people's homes in real life, so there is some artificiality even in these cases. But for electronic and amplified music how can you talk about fidelity when no one ever really heard the original music till it was all mixed, dubbed and mastered? I think that it is closer to the truth in this hobby to say we all just pick the forms of distortion we prefer. |
Where's 'The Ministry Of Truth' when you need it? |
