I'm not an 'audiophile" but I like to think I have a good ear having been a professional musician (principal wind player in major symphony orchestras) for 50 years. A number of years ago going into an excellent audio equipment store I talked with, what seemed, a knowledgeable salesman. Being a musician experienced in audio systems but not expert on all the equipment out there I had some questions concerning high (over-priced?) end cables. The salesman assured there was an audible differencet in a demo room switching back and forth etc. After a few minutes I noticed the sound coming out of only one channel. He complemented me on my "good ear." Hmmm? A few years later when setting up my home system I investigated speaker cables. Two sets of Monster, stranded standard cable, solid core copper (used for alarm system) attached with like connecters. There was a difference. However, not in terms of better or worse: bass and treble were acceptable as was clarity loud and soft. Differences were esthetic- like asking "whose the best tenor" (I like Plácido). Now I know as a musician used to live (i.e. un-amplified) music that all I hear coming out of a loud speaker is perforce ersatz. But most everything today comes out of a loud speaker whether a rock concert or a hi-fi system so perhaps my opinion is curmudgeonly. But, for me, spending oodles of money on hyped cables, well... I liked the solid core for my alarm system- still do.
So, someone is gonna come along, spouting crap about measurement methodology from 100 years ago like it is some sort of permanent dogmatic bible of truth....... and tell me how I hear --- and how well I hear?
The reality is that science is moving so fast that the peak specialists in a given field cannot hope to ever keep up with the new discoveries in their own field.
To re-iterate, the fastest moving, most intelligent, most published, most up to date, hardest working people in a given high science, cannot and are not keeping up with the pace of discovery and change ----in their own fields.
Where... someone, some jackass on a forum...wants to tell me how I hear and that 100 year old methods of measurement, connected to this situation in cables and hearing, is somehow relevant..core..and utterly decisive and correct.. and disarms and dismisses what hundreds of thousands of audiophiles, if not MILLIONS (over the years) say about the sound of cables.
That such hair brained illiteracy can project itself in this world only speaks well of kind human tolerance.
Sorry for many of the responses you're getting. This forum has deteriorated over the years, and civility here as elsewhere seems to be optional. What a disgusting situation.
The measurement-only people are looking for a number first from a limited mechanical device before they will allow themselves to listen for a difference.
It seems that, on this forum, those who have an opinion based on their experience as a musician, recording engineer, equipment technician or otherwise professionally involved in music or it’s production, receive the most amount of ire and insults from the golden ear crowd who place little to no value on anyone’s professional opinion........Jim
Sorry for many of the responses you're getting. This forum has deteriorated over the years, and civility here as elsewhere seems to be optional. What a disgusting situation.
This is funny and ironic. Apologizing to the OP? 😂😂 Never occurred to you that the OP is the issue here, and the subsequent follow through. Disgusting 🤮
@jhills: I'm setting aside some time this coming Memorial Day Weekend SundryAfternoon specifically to ponder your question - when I'll mull over the distinct possibility that your bibs may be bobbing on the surface of the waters of the pondry? When I think I have an answer, I'll cable it to you in a Western Union telegram.
@thynameThis is funny and ironic. Apologizing to the OP? 😂😂 Never occurred to you that the OP is the issue here, and the subsequent follow through. Disgusting 🤮
Wow, judging from this post and many of your others, here as of late, I'm starting to think you're gunning to be AGon's new Einstein. Just when we thought he was gone.
Myself and most others here found no fault with his thread, profession or opinion. And hold in great regard those who have dedicated their lives to making and producing the music we claim to love and wether or not we always agree at least respect and value their opinion.
Just the same few here who have a continual need to insult others as having inferior equipment and bad hearing, if their opinion doesn't match their own......Jim
In my younger days, I spent many of long nights of practice and most weekends on stage doing gigs with our local rock band to earn extra money. We set up and mixed all our own equipment and at the end of a three hour show we had to tear down and haul many miles back to home. On top of all the work involved I’d say we had quite a good understanding and appreciation of music, how it should sound and how, back then, it was produced.
I did not follow a music career but do have a great deal of respect for those who did. I’ve been an audio enthusiast for more than 35 years now and have had and enjoyed with others who have had some very nice audio equipment and spent many a long night auditioning audio equipment, including cables and cords and mostly enjoying the music.
In short I appreciate the opinions of those who make the music and the opinions and shared views with some fine audiophile friends I’ve had over the years.
Sorry if what I said irritates you, but the best guitarist, flutist, cellist or any other musician on the planet could teach you nothing as long as you have the idea that he/she really doesn’t know what music should sound like.
'Myself and most others here found no fault with his thread, profession or opinion. And hold in great regard those who have dedicated their lives to making and producing the music we claim to love and whether or not we always agree at least respect and value their opinion'.
The OP has shared on experiences encountered and their assessment of the impression made, this is their unique evaluation as there has been no other individual on this forum present at any of the experiences referred to.
As equipment is fundamental to Music Replays, the experiencing equipment runs parallel with this, the more extended these experiences, through received demonstrations, will without doubt, train ones listening abilities, to the point where it able to distinguish changes in a presentation or SQ, as well as allow for a individual to decipher where there most satisfying listening experiences is to be found.
Being a HiFi enthusiast as a ' Lone, in room only participation', is an approach that is quite insular, and can prove to be a method that deprives an individual from expanding on their training to learn where improved presentation and SQ is able to be created through equipment or utilising ancillaries, it is certainly a method that can deprive one of achieving their highest levels of Satisfaction from a music replay.
The OP might only be one or two new experiences away from an experience, that could encourage them to re-evaluate some of their prior assessments, for myself, to take part in new experiences, is where the 'pleasure' is on offer is to be found, it manifests from encountering and being demonstrated unfamiliar equipment.
If enthusiasm is part of the approach to such experiences, which I seem to have in abundance, then this is where the 'fun' begins.
When such experiences being encountered, are able to influence and be an aspiration to achieve in ones own system, which is what I have been met with on occasion, then this is where the 'satisfaction' is to be found.
' Satisfaction' can be a variety of outcomes, for myself, the best is when a New Friendship is formed, as the result of the taking the time to meet with others and expose oneself to another's ideas for their Systems set up, it is extra special when be introduced to items that others have become 'wed to' and are rated as being the items that proved to be game changers.
Following this is the knowing something has occurred with an outcome that has has a meaningful and positive effect, a very good or even indelible impression has occurred, in relation to experiencing new items of equipment or ancillaries.
To occasionally encounter items that are impressive, and are able to compel one into placing it on the curiosity radar, creating an intention for it to be brought in for further evaluation in the home system, is how my experiences of encountering new equipment and ancillaries seems to be the fuel that keeps myself consistently involved.
What I am sure of is that not all with an interest in HiFi attain a place where they have become experienced enthusiasts with a broad range of experiences and a trained ear, but this does not matter, as enjoying musical replays are very achievable without developing knowledge through increased experiences.
Between all enthusiasts, there is not one assembled system that is alike, each user of a system will have produced a System that is either functioning or reliable, that fits into another's design for the home decor', or the the alternative to this method, that is to produce a system that is unique to their preferences, how it looks aesthetically is not of a real concern, the goal is for it to be presenting in a manner that is sympathetic the their sensitivities, without presenting to much of a gaze on the areas within a replay that they sense as being unattractive and not a match for their likes.
'It really is each to their own' and accept others descriptions in relation to the experiences that have been encountered.
Change of viewpoints is always going to be occurring, especially as a result of changes to experiences being encountered, and forums would not have hardly any OP's to respond to, if new making it known that new experiences are being considered, was not the main line of inquiries
Sorry if what I said irritates you, but the best guitarist, flutist, cellist or any other musician on the planet could teach you nothing as long as you have the idea that he/she really doesn’t know what music should sound like.
@jhills It is apparent you’ve completely missed the point of what I, @newbee and several others here have been making. Of course the OP knows well what music sounds like and nobody is arguing with that. But that has little to do with being able to assess what an individual component is adding or subtracting in the context of a home audio system especially if the listener has limited experience with better quality equipment. Again, I’ve played in bands for many years and have also written professional audio reviews for 16 years and there’s very little playing live music has contributed to what I need to know to review audio components and systems. Put another way, a professional musician with little experience with audio equipment isn’t in a much better position to assess or write a review of an audio component than any ordinary Joe off the street because they simply lack the experience and perspective to be able to make those assessments not having heard what better components can provide. It’s like a new versus an experienced driver — yes the new driver can drive at a certain level, but they’ll become a much better driver with more actual driving experience. Same with the ability to assess audio components, which is at the heart of the discussion here
What I am sure of is that not all with an interest in HiFi attain a place where they have become experienced enthusiasts with a broad range of experiences and a trained ear, but this does not matter, as enjoying musical replays are very achievable without developing knowledge through increased experiences.
@pindacWhile I agree someone without a trained ear can put together what they perceive as an enjoyable system to them, with more experience or “training” by listening to better equipment and systems that person will find the flaws in their “enjoyable” system and be in a much better position to build an even more capable and enjoyable system. And this goes back to the OP who is relatively “untrained” in the realm of better cables but blindly dismisses more expensive cables as “hyped” by comparing only cheap cables. This alone makes no sense, and being a professional musician doesn’t help if there’s no perspective on what more expensive cables can offer. That’s the ultimate and fatal disconnect going on here. We mock what we don’t understand.
Having a good ear and being a musician won’t get you very far in terms of being able to identify and discern differences between audio components, and that includes cables
This might be the single most inane thing ever written here.
The reviewer vs driver comparison is a red herring.
Whilst a reviewer may write more entertainingly, there is no training of one’s hearing to match the program. Learning to drive is matching one’s input to the desired vehicle behavior.
People claiming they played in rock bands and also review equipment should be required post a certified hearing test.
I don’t think anyone is advocating censorship, just maybe a little pause and self reflection. Debate (if indeed this is what @exflute had intended and I don’t believe he did) need not be disrespectful or loaded with vitriol. Important to ask before react…not that I’m never guilty of being reactionary, but have found that too often we simply misinterpret intention.
I perform music in a jazz chamber context pretty regularly. I can appreciate what he’s saying here. But I also very much love the process of tweaking and experimenting with my setup (and room) to see how sonically compelling my system can become. Cables (and everything else) can influence tonal color, response, stage width, depth etc.
But the feeling (goosebumps) I get from listening in front of my system is set apart and completely different than when playing in a jazz trio, quarter, quintet. And add to that - when playing for an appreciative and attentive audience to boot.
@exflute did any one here actually ask about your system? And/or, would you be willing to try other changes or tweaks to your system to see what improvements could be had? I’d be curious to know what you’re working with - modest or not - as I believe GREAT sound can be achieved for far less these days.
But I only ask this if you are compelled to seek said changes in sound and tonal nuance. As that in itself can be both frustrating/expensive when it does not make an improvement, but also exhilarating when it does.
Either way, I respect your perspective, and your wonderfully experienced ears 🙏🏼
Please give a break. The OP “compared” a shitty Monster cable from decades ago to alarm system cable. And arrived to a “scientific “ conclusion that cables do not make a difference. For him and all of the “audiophiles” (the parentheses are his). The usual cable deniers are rejoicing. As if the big proof has been revealed now. Pathetic
Just what we need-another fun and entertaining jaunt to break up the drudgeries of our daily lives with the usual sides (like that of a hexagon) taking up residence.
Allow me to distill this from an the old adage that a plumber's house always leaks: A musicians system is always off key.
jasonbourne52"The Emperor's New Clothes is the applicable paradigm"
That is just so cute and adorable that if you were here I'd give you a hug I think it is great that you are taking what you read and using it to compare it to the real world. Fairy tales and folk tales often have "hidden messages" and there are many good ones have your read Hansel and Gretel? That's a scary one but of course they are usually "simplistic" but fun too.
As you continue your reading I recommend you seek basic, elemental, introductory texts about electricity they will help you understand what a circuit is, how it works, and how electricity can be made to do work for us it is a fascinating topic! If you are in "scouting" I think you can get a merit badge or maybe even more than one for showing a familiarity, understanding, and comfort with the common, essential, necessary terms and parameters of electricity.
The OP “compared” a shitty Monster cable from decades ago to alarm system cable.
Just as pop music has devolved [see Why is Modern Music so Awful? - YouTube] and most quality has disappeared [see ieLogical Lossy], perhaps modern listeners are adding ’Sweet n Low’ with tweaks that old timers don’t miss.
Don’t misunderstand, it’s pure physics that interconnect cables alter the sound. Perhaps it’s akin to the demise of classis malts being replaced with flavor of the month for kiddies raised on Snapple. Cinnamon Bourbon?!!?!! NFW!
I think I covered the idea in the lower paragraph, that there were new experiences to be had by the OP and these could be quite influencing and possibly have the impact that creates a rethink on the current thought pattern that has been made known.
"The OP might only be one or two new experiences away from an experience, that could encourage them to re-evaluate some of their prior assessments".
I never chose the Music I most enjoy, it chose me, all I needed to do was be somewhere that enabled me to encounter it and the rest is History.
As an indelible experience and encounter, I crossed paths with Fernando's Kitchen, when I was on my way to a Night Shift at Work, and they were Busking on the London Underground in the City of London.
I heard them in the Passenger Walkway Tunnels, for a few minutes before encountering them, I was compelled to stay as a audience member and also purchased a CD from Heidi, the Lead Member. Many years on I use this CD at HiFi related events, and occasionally tell my story, lucky for me I can also share a moment with the Group with Youtube Footage being available. Ironically Ihad no interest in this Genre of music until that encounter at the end of Train Journey.
Many years later on a London Underground Train for only a few Stations Stops prior to having to make a route change, Two Girls boarded the Tube with Guitars in their cases mounted on their backs, in front of me they commenced with practicing harmonies, I was mesmerised, and savoured every note they shared.
On arrival at my stop where a route change was needed, I thanked the two girls and explained how beautiful their harmonies were.
Prior to this the only Harmonies I was impressed by would have been the Bee Gee's Night Fever Song's. I certainly was not too interested in Harmonies.
At a later date, I learned the Two Girls were 'First Aid Kit', with that knowledge I now own most of their released Albums.
I have seen numerous live acts, some performances are from very established Groups, that have not had an impact on me like these ones have.
Most importantly no special training of the ear was required to make such decisions about these performers, I encountered an experience that was much enjoyed and that had proved to be very attractive.
For me with HiFi it is the same, when a demonstration presents a device, it is either perceived as being attractive or not, the occasion, will usually always be enjoyed.
The more experiences I have the more familiar I am becoming with alternate presentations, and the more I become aware of what is an attractor or detractor.
These assessments are very much unique to me and as I do a lot of taking part in a demonstration in the Company of others, I rarely see unanimous evaluations where agreements are quite similar.
I certainly am not going to suggest to the OP what music they should enjoy, and I certainly am not going to suggest to the OP which Cables they should enjoy.
I will suggest to the OP that there are many more experiences/demonstrations that can be encountered if they are motivated to search them out. One of these might make just enough of an impression to make them have a re-think about continuing on with using Bell Wire.
Oh yeah, that’s it. Just buy alarm system wire and be done with it. To each his own.
If the high priced spread makes it worse, should he still buy it?
When I worked in professional studios where innumerable award winning albums and movies were recorded by award winning engineers, the only cable certainty was that any particular cable could elicit "WOW!", "meh" or "blech" depending on the microphone or recorder, console, amplifiers and speakers.
Unfortunately, many High End cable designs are Band-Aids for failings elsewhere.
Depends on your system. If you have a $3000.00 integrated and $1500.00 speakers then save your cash cause the cables are really only going to make a very minute change in your system. Money better spent on room treatment's.
Just opinion who am I to say how you spend your money.
There is a reason the OP likes the bell wire: Single strand copper conductors in a. thin sleeve - usually PVC, but can sometimes be found with the much preferred polyethylene sleeve. It’s cheep and in short runs, does a great job at transmitting an audio signal without adding any character of it’s own.
My favorite speaker cable/wire by far, regardless of price, is of the same principal only made with somewhat better materials and a little more engineering: single strand, 24 AWG,. OCC copper in a thin PTFE sleeve, with both leads helical wound and sheathed in a light, natural fiber, woven jacket. Not really cheep at about $1,200.00 for a 8’ bi-wired pair - still the best and most neutral I’ve found for my system regardless of price.
My point is - if you haven’t tried bell wire, give it a shot. If you don’t like what you hear, maybe the problem is somewhere else in your system......Jim
Could not agree more. Beyond materials quality and build quality most of the cable company claims are just sales poetry. At a certain level, the difference between one quality bottle of Cabernet and another is in the flavor nuances. Not better than or worse. Just small differences that you may or may not notice or care much about. You can get far better sound from room treatments than you ever will by spending thousands or more on cables. People don't want to believe that they are as subject to confirmation bias as the next person. In this case it is the askew notion that more expensive cables are better than less expensive ones because of fanciful claims and higher prices. Oh if it only be so. BTW, super high-end cable company profit margins verge on the unethical-- as in, they are obscene.
Free market society last I checked (unless you are in say Cuba or China). You are free to buy or not buy.
The only obscene thing here is notion that making obscene profits is obscene. Come on man with all the crap going on now days you pick cables and profit to be obscene?
Go blow in a flute.
Oh if it only be so. BTW, super high-end cable company profit margins verge on the unethical-- as in, they are obscene.
Well, I see the MAGA ll — Make Audio Great Again — flat earth crowd is now out in force here. Yay. Their motto: I hear what I believe. It’s a lot easier than admitting to the themselves that maybe either their ears or systems (or both) aren’t resolving enough to hear differences in cables. Hey, they should be happy as they can save $$$ by using lamp cords and fire alarm wire and not know they’re missing anything. Me? The second I heard the Acoustic Zen Double Barrel Shotgun cables compared to my old Monster Cables it was game over — not even close. To the MAGA ll flat earthers here I’d be happy to sell you my Monster Cables as they’re still sitting in my basement somewhere.
Free market society last I checked (unless you are in say Cuba or China). You are free to buy or not buy.
Free to lie to folks by making false or unprovable claims about your grossly over-priced products or free to be chump enough to fall for them, or both?
The only obscene thing here is notion that making obscene profits is obscene. Come on man with all the crap going on now days you pick cables and profit to be obscene?
I guess you might not see the connection between societal breakdown and the pattern in this country, in particular, of ripping people off because you can (monopolies) or because you are often free to make specious claims about whatever it is you're shucking. Do you think that's what made America great? Or did it make you money? You sound offended so I'll guess the latter.
Go blow in a flute.
If I do, I sure wouldn't buy that flute, or an insurance policy, or even an overpriced piece of wire, from you. Anyone that revels in the glory of being able to sell anything to anybody at rip-off (obscene) prices should apply immediately for a sales or a marketing position at any large pharmaceutical firm. You're just what they're looking for, and I hear the pay's fabulous, far better than selling overpriced magic-juju wire.
Why all the animosity? “Flat earth crowd,” “obscene profits,” “sales poetry,” - who cares what others think about the cables you use? This is not a contest, but you can vote with your own wallet to buy the cables that sound best in your system - it’s all good.
I owned AZ Double Barrel Shotgun SCs and thought they were pretty good but then found other cables I liked better - multiple solid core OCC wires in foamed polyethylene. However, I also like heavy gauge old stock Western Electric speaker cables, manufactured Furutech speaker cables, and cables I made using Jupiter copper in cotton wire. I sometimes switch between them for fun.
The reason I'm cable critical is because of the industry's long history of false claims and rampant over-charging. Yes, it is your right as an American to be ripped off. But to take that as a matter of pride just seems very weird to me. You want to pay the stupid money for a piece of wire be my guest!
How much are we allowed to pay for a piece of wire? Thank you. Please provide separate limits for developed countries , developing countries, emerging markets, and frontier countries. Thank you for your service to the audio community!
Everyone is free to be ripped off. It's a free country. That's not my issue. Like I said, my issue is with bogus claims justifying stupid pricing. By all means, spend $10k on an interconnect and tell us all about the blacker backgrounds, better focus, soundstage depth, etc. But you won't be able to rank cables by how they sound in order of price beyond anything made with quality materials and build. You won't be able to tell the difference BY PRICE between a $200, $1500, and $5000 cable and rank them in order of cost because the $200 cable is not better or worse than the $5000 cable.
The reason I’m cable critical is because of the industry’s long history of false claims and rampant over-charging.
So you’ve developed a self-justified righteous indignation, which you then believe entitles you to act as judge, jury, and executioner. Good luck with the frustrations in your life.
You won't be able to tell the difference BY PRICE between a $200, $1500, and $5000 cable and rank them in order of cost because the $200 cable is not better or worse than the $5000 cable.
@wesheadley Really? I won’t? Where’s your evidence of this, or perhaps you can tell us what $200, $1500, and $5000 cables you used to make your assertions? I’ve got several cables ranging from $500 to $2000, and the difference between the $500 and $2000 cables (as well as the others) is not hard to hear at all. Again, what’s your evidence to back your claim cause I’d love to see why I’m not hearing what I clearly hear. Also, what equipment is in the system you’re using to make these judgements?
@soix: Really? I won’t? Where’s your evidence of this
I once auditioned some AQ cables in a full Mac system that I would judge as pretty damn good. ToL B&W LS w 2x big REL subs. Well-proportioned and well-damped room. Excellent presentation with correct perspective, height, width and depth. One of the best store demos I’d ever heard.
So, moving from the $6k pre->amp IC to the $12k, the system became UNLISTENABLE. Now, you may say it comes down to personal preference.
If you’ve paying attention, I always audition with the same three tracks and only if the system passes the sniff test, do I continue. No point otherwise if it can’t cut the mustard. I start w "Ruby Baby"*, original Tommy "Underture" and finally Jarreau’s "Mornin’". The system in original configuration was really, really good. One of the best store demos ever!
On an audition change, the tune order is reversed.
On the new cable, about a minute into "Mornin’", I said "STOP. That cable is totally wrong for this system**." Asked "Why?", I answered "The perspective is all screwed up. The hat has gone from delicate to gritty. The vocal has lost all its air. The bottom is nebulous. It’s really bad."
Asked "How do you know it’s not the recording and the new cable isn’t revealing flaws in the recording?"
"Well, I recorded and mixed it and in 35 years I’ve never heard anything quite as bad. The other cable played it as I recorded it, so for my money, if I had the original system, I’d stick with it."
BTW, most of the time I just walk out part way through a demo because the systems are hopeless.
--------------------------------------
* Nichols is one of my idols.
** It’s always the system in a room and that’s why bloviator FanBoy recommendations are worthless.
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