Cable curmudgeon

I really didn’t mean to rile up the MAGA loving or the placebo-denying crowd by pointing out that no one can rank cable audio quality by price (or to promote communism). I’m just pointing out the obvious-- very expensive cables include obscene profit margins and that beyond a certain build and materials quality yield little interchangeable differences that cannot be ranked by price.

You might wonder what kind of system I have-- I use a SOTA Series VI (w/vacuum & mag-lev bearing) with Origin Live Silver mkIII arm, Soundsmith Hyperion cartridge, Musical Fidelity VINYL phone-pre, McCormack DNA Gold amp and preamp, Genesis III speakers+ Genesis Servo-12 subs, Morrow cables (3 series) - for the analog chain, + dedicated power circuits, all copper wiring/grounding.

I can easily hear the differences between my phono cartridges’, between my different phono preamps, changes in speaker positioning, room treatments, vibrations treatments, etc., and yeah, I have tried multiple cables from decent to very expensive, living with them for a while before coming to any conclusions. With cables it’s just trading one set of micro-differences for another with NO relationship between price and ultimate sonic quality-- and frankly, I’d rather listen to music than the gear, which I think is, for some, a kind of obsessive distraction.

Anyway-- I’d bet anyone here that they would never be able to rank a series of cables by audio quality -- say five cables ranging from $200 - $10,000 each.

It’s all in your mind-- so if you want to believe that a $2000 piece of wire will beat a $200 piece of wire, then by all means, go for it! What was it again that P.T. Barnum said? Hope that doesn’t make me a commie!

So $200 is the absolute upper limit on price we should pay on cables? Is it one cable (i.e. power cord, or ICs), or all cables combined? If $200, why not $50? Or free (strip out lamp cord or alarm system wire)? What makes a $200 cable better than a $50 cable?

What makes a $200 cable better than a $50 cable?

It sounds better to the listener in a particular system and room.

Other than that:

Beauty is in thy eye of the beholder?

aka

Confirmation Bias?

Hookah. 

It sounds better to the listener in a particular system and room.

Totally! Agreed. That’s all that matters. But I am very curious: if it’s possible that a $200 cable sounds better than a $50 to the listener in a particular system and room, Is it possible that a $800 cable sounds better than the $200 cable to the listener in a particular system and room? Or is it once you get to a $200 price point for a single cable, there is no more benefit to spending any more money, regardless of the listener’s system and room, and then it’s impossible that a more expensive cable can sound better than the $200 cable ?

Further, what if you buy a $800 cable for $200 via a screaming deal used? Is this allowed? Will then the $800 cable I bought used for $200 in theory MAY sound better than the $200 MSRP cable for the listener in the particular system and room?

Last question: what if someone gifted you the $800 cable? meaning, you paid nothing for it. Is it possible that this FREE cable can sound better than the $200 cable you paid money in the listener's system and room? 

Cables, and to a large extent HiFi, is Jewelry.

Some cables are extremely complex to fabricate and can somewhat justify their pricing on that basis. A large part is to drive marketing as in "The same technology in our $40,000 cable is used in our $400 ones."

What really gets my goat is companies like Nordost and Audioquest with their demonstrably bad geometry and silly names. By their design, these cables are tone controls and will interact positively in some instances and egregiously awful in others. Salespeople blather on about PTFE, µm plating, etc. with ZERO understanding of why the cables alter the sound.

I once auditioned some AQ cables in a full Mac system that I would judge as pretty damn good.

I wouldn’t use Mac gear to assess any cables. They have a house sound that boosts tonal richness and rolls off the treble, which is why they’re often paired with B&W IMHO. It’s surely an attractive sound to some, but it’s a far cry from neutral and thus not a great vehicle for assessing the finer differences between cables.

moving from the $6k pre->amp IC to the $12k, the system became UNLISTENABLE.

So, you’ve shared one experience where a more expensive PC was supposedly inferior (lots of variables at play here BTW) to a “cheaper” $6k cable. Good for you! That means nothing. A lot of people throw around the term “confirmation bias” quite a bit here, but there’s another type of bias that also crops up here frequently, which is the representative bias. It’s when someone is exposed to results from a narrow sample sample or what they saw themselves a few times and extrapolates those findings across the board. Sharing one example of anything proves and means absolutely nothing.

So $200 is the absolute upper limit on price we should pay on cables?

No, not for me. I'm more in the $300-$500 per cable, but I've bought pure sterling silver Musicable for stupid money, tried some higher-end Wire-World and Audioquest stuff, and Cardis. Small differences-- not better or worse.

Currently I'm running Morrow and I'm pretty happy with their approach, materials and careful build quality. I like quality connections, pure materials, and price really varies by length-- I prefer the shorter the better. I prefer no ferrous metals in the cable circuit, connectors, or panel connectors in the gear panels- replacing that stuff to all copper/brass/gold-plate makes a difference. Overall, I get way better bang by improving my room acoustics, vibrations, reflections, etc.

Yep like I said @wesheadley dude.

Flute dude maybe wrong or maybe right?

Depends on your system. If you have a $3000.00 integrated and $1500.00 speakers then save your cash cause the cables are really only going to make a very minute change in your system. Money better spent on room treatment's.

Just opinion who am I to say how you spend your money.  

I wouldn’t use Mac gear to assess any cables.

Interesting concept recommending cables with no regard to how they interface in a system.

So, you’ve shared one experience where a more expensive PC was supposedly inferior (lots of variables at play here BTW) to a “cheaper” $6k cable. Good for you!

Actually, first started investigating cables and connectors in the early 70's. Done literally hundreds of comparisons. I'll wager on a lot more diverse gear, in more locations and on more program, live and recorded, than most. When I left Los Angeles, I filled a 55 gallon garbage bin with old cable.

Overall, I get way better bang by improving my room acoustics, vibrations, reflections, etc.

Far too many start at the wrong end. When searching for a new home before we left LA, realtors asked the missus "Why does he go around clapping and banging and shouting?" Get the room right, most everything else is a doddle. That's how recording studios are built.

My system, being what it is, is very adequately served by inexpensive cables. A big issue for me has been bad connections between components and cables. As long as the contacts are all good I get the sound I want for cheap! My latest upgrade was changing my HDMI cables out to a couple grades above basic. I was getting frequent signal dropouts where the sound would just turn off and the picture would go black for a few seconds at a time. I assume that was also from intermittent contacts. If I just slightly wiggled and HDMI cable it could cause a dropout. The new HDMI cables seem to have solved the issue.

As for hearing differences with cables, I think some equipment combinations are particularly sensitive to cable parameters. That sort of "revealing" characteristic is a nuisance to me, basically a design defect, although a defect for one can be a feature for another. I don’t see any evidence that basic, serviceable inexpensive cables are the cause of any meaningful destruction of information in the audible range. They’re not doing anything wrong. They’re just failing to act as a remedy.

I wouldn’t use Mac gear to assess any cables.  

Interesting concept recommending cables with no regard to how they interface in a system.

Let me add a little more perspective here.  I wouldn’t use colored components with rolled off highs to assess any cables.  I worked for Magnolia and heard more than my fair share of Mac/B&W D3 combos, and they simply gloss over too much detail to be useful in accurately determining the subtle yet critical differences between cables.  Whenever a customer wanted to hear the differences in cables I deferred to other more neutral and transparent electronics so the differences could be more readily heard. 

I wish I didn't hear the difference in cables - then again I appreciate the impact.

If you feel the same or different - I hope you enjoy the music!

If you ask this forum which cable is best you get multiple options. 

There is no one answer as people like the one they currently use but are always looking for a better one. 

This tells me that there is no one best cable or people would tend to generally gravitate to a specific brand. 

Let the opinions continue. 

@vanson1 isn't your statement true for all audio equipment - turntables, speakers, amplifies, preamps. phone stages, streamers and cassette decks?

I view everything is a compromise based on criteria and a high impact criteria is cost.

Also a flutist (though not professional). My take on this is:

- The data on cables does not show anything that would explain audible differences between cheap and expensive cables except if the connection is bad (e.g. oxidation) or the cables are very long.

- Blind tests generally do not show that people can reliable detect differences between cables (but if you ask which one they prefer they’ll tell you).

- Virtually all of the people who sell, and most of the people who buy, expensive cables claim to hear differences.

- What and how people hear is extraordinarily impacted by cognition and context. (remember the experiment with Nigel Kennedy playing in the subway? Or all the auditory illusions where people hear very different words in songs?)

One side of this debate thinks that some people are naturally "Golden Ears" and/or that critically listening trains you to notice differences that non-hobbyists either don’t notice or react to unconsciously. The other side thinks that fools and their money are soon parted.

My take is that you buy a stereo system for nothing but pleasure. If you buy and listen to music through $10k speaker cables, and get $10k worth of pleasure out of it, you got your money’s worth, regardless of whether the positive differences you hear come from some so far undetected physical difference in the electronic chain, or from the way your cognition and your hearing interact. If not, not.

BTW, you're not Loren Lind, are you?

I wouldn’t use colored components with rolled off highs to assess any cables.

How do you know the Mac system 'failings' were not the cables? One AQ swap changed it from beautiful to beastly.

 Mac/B&W D3 combos ... simply gloss over too much detail to be useful in accurately determining the subtle yet critical differences between cables.

Not my experience at all. While not my cup of tea, Mac makes some lovely gear and stellar systems can be assembled with the right choices of LS & cables.

Whenever a customer wanted to hear the differences in cables I deferred to other more neutral and transparent electronics so the differences could be more readily heard.

Wasn't that rather pointless? Since cables interact with the hardware and the effects are largely system dependent, unless you are demoing on similar equipment and program the result could be WOW, meh or BLECH when the poor schlub gets them home... hence the burn-in scam.

Well those are just silly arguments I’m not even going to bother responding to.  Let’s just say we live on different planets and leave it at that. 

Yes good cables makes the difference, especially if you are willing to listen and open to what good cable can do.

Well those are just silly arguments

If one can make an excellent system awful w a single cable change, it stands to reason that the correct cables can make a less than stellar system much better.

Unless one subscribes to the nonsense that cables on their own have properties that do not change relative to the devices connected.

If one bothers to pay attention to impedances, cables become much more predictable.

Bottom line is cables make a difference and manufacturer hierarchy is solely $$ driven.

@wesheadley I'm not a tube guy or a vinyl guy so I'm not really hip to your equipment but it looks like your system is well thought out and you have a real sweet setup. You appear to have good taste, I bet you're pretty discerning and you seem like a pretty bright fella.

Based solely on my own experience with cables, I guess you could say I sort of did a jump hop and a skip from the cheap s**t I guess most would consider the equivalent of lamp cord, to real entry level higher quality cables that made a small difference and then made a decision to explore some really nice cables as I collected some sweet gear.

The way our brains process the cues from our systems is one of the things that intrigues me about our shared hobby. My own experience has shown me that when we clean up the power signal, and provide an unimpeded signal path IF we're using equipment that's well engineered and the pieces are paired well with other components the music just sounds different. I personally don't care if others can perceive it or not. It's extremely subtle but it's what makes this difference some folks around here have also discovered. Sometimes you just don't know what you don't know. 

The approach that seemed the most legit to me was Nordost. Boy, you talk about some expensive s**t. But I shared all that to say this: I'd be willing to bet if you performed your own proposed challenge with the range of Nordost cables that it would make a believer out of you. By the way, yeah, if you come up with a unique idea and create a superior product and you can get people to pay you a silly amount of money to own your stuff then rock on. I'll even go out on a limb and say the more you charge the more it's gonna make the right folks want to own it. For me, it's not a matter of coveting stuff. Music is how I get my jollies and I'm willing to part with some pretty big hard earned bucks to achieve it.

This is sort of starting to sound like I'm a fanboy but I guess you could say I am. Check out the science behind their design. I bet you're gonna think it's relevant. And I want to apologize in advance because to outfit your cool system with a complete loom at a level that's gonna give you what you're looking for (in spades), it's going to be expensive as f**k. Ha ha ha

But watch what I'm sayin. The end result will be that those silly cables will let your awesome equipment play your music in a very uncolored fashion. When I first achieved it, even when I got close, it actually seemed a tad awkward because it was different from what I was used to. But the different types of bias folks talk about around here are very real. The one thing that'll change as you explore the upper range of Nordost is the bass. I mean there are improvements in other areas as well, but that's the one area that made the biggest difference for me.

I bet you're a Valhalla kind of guy.    : )

Did the OP get kicked off the forum, or was he just performing for us?   

+1 Thyname & Soix

The one thing that'll change as you explore the upper range of Nordost is the bass. I mean there are improvements in other areas as well, but that's the one area that made the biggest difference for me.

Actually, the relationship between the 'bass' and the ear's 2-5kHz most sensitive region. Cables have almost zero effect below 100Hz. And probably just for your LS [type].

Nordost's can be a nasty load for some power amplifiers which can have any number of audible consequences.

tunefuldude

Thank you for your very thoughtful response to my comments regarding cables.

I have not tried Nordost yet-- but I will go over to their site and start doing some reading.

I don’t trust my first reactions to an equipment change unless the change is huge and obvious (something say, my wife would also notice), but I do believe that subtler differences will reveal themselves over time once I’ve had a chance to listen to a lot of different music. For me this is usually weeks or months.

I do believe that analog chains are sensitive to more variables than I am probably even aware of, and that the mix of gear and the quality of the power driving it make a huge difference in sound quality.

My main point is always the same. If you are not happy with the sound, first try improving the room acoustics as much as you can. Then, for vinyl in my case, look to the phono cartridge as that’s at the beginning of the chain, and there are real and obvious differences between cartridges. Then the phono preamp. Assuming you have good amps and preamps, look to the speakers and their positioning.

Ultimately, once you hit a certain level of quality, have enough power to drive your speakers, etc., after getting all of that out of the way, then sure, play with some cables.

My only point about cables is that price does not equal quality beyond a certain point-- what I have noticed are differences, like you might notice between some quality wines of the same varietal. They don’t just keep getting better and better as you spend more and more per bottle.

You clearly know your system, and you hear what you hear-- and in your case you like what you’re hearing from the Nordost cables. Many people have told me the same thing, so I might give them a try-- from turntable to phono preamp, from there to preamp, and from there to the amp. That’s a complete circuit and over time the changes will reveal themselves to me usually. I’m overall pretty happy with my system. The next major change I want to try is to buy a Primaluna tube amp and see how I like that sound. I’ve been on solid state for a very long time now, and I’m curious about how tube output will sound on my Genesis III’s.

Thanks again for taking the time to write what I consider to be a kind and useful reply, absent the usual insults, quips, and cultish dismissals.