Borresen X3 measurements

Some of the finest Hi Fi products of all time don't measure well.....If your ears were a computer....you know what I mean.

I don’t actually. Most good equipment measures well. 

I heard the X3 3 different times at the 2023 Axpona and knew this would not be a speaker I would ever purchase. I previously posted that the X3 was hi/fi ish and not coherent. Yes, they were attention grabbers that is why I stopped by the room 3 times and still the same impression. No speaker is perfect but the false hype they received is finally justified by measurement. 

Does every great measuring speaker sound good? No. Do the majority of great measuring speakers sound good? YES! Do the majority of crappy measuring speakers sound crappy? That would also be a YES!

I agree 100% with bojack!

Some things in sound quality are not measured or hard to quantify. But that does not negate the value of things we can measure that affect the sound. I have not heard the X3 so the measurments are interesting to me since there has been more or less universal praise for them. 
 

I am a bit taken back by 3 things about the measurements.

#1 the poor estimated in room frequency response (directivity issues coincide).

#2 the bass tuning…

#3 the lack of dynamic range. I have read people state they can play very loud but the data strongly suggests otherwise. This would explain why the X6 is made. I thought there might be something special with the tweeter but it shows heavy compression too. 
 

Anyway that is my keyboard warrior take.

Measurements, smeasurements........The speakers haven't receive almost universal praise by accident!!!  Believe it or not, most audiophiles really don't give a hoot about measurement, as they're drawn primarily towards what sounds most pleasing to their ears, regardless of measurements.  That's the reality of high end audio.  Some audiophile are very technical and measurement are of particular interest to them.  It's all good in the neighborhood.          

Kennymacc,

Your revels are some of the best measuring speakers ever… I bet you think they are some of the best speakers made too… measurements and sound quality can not be separated.

I find a lot of times people just don’t measure their systems response or their rooms decay time. Lack of experience is the issue. The X3 is not a tuning issue (rolled off or bright), the drivers simply don’t integrate and there is a lot of box noise.

@james633 True, my Revel Salon 2s do measure very well. However, the best measuring speakers are not necessarily the best choice for everyone. For example: Technically speaking, solid state amplifiers generally measure much better than tube amplifiers, but that doesn’t stop multitudes of audiophiles from choosing tubes over solid state. Many audiophiles don’t own speakers that measure particularly well. However, that doesn’t prevent many audiophiles from falling madly in love with speakers that don’t measure well, either. And, them falling in love with poorly measuring speakers has very little to do with their lack of experience. It has everything to do with how the overall sound of the speakers managed to capture their imaginations. And, that’s all that really matters. Happy listening.

I mean experience with measurements not just rotating equipment. Nothing wrong with liking a non flat speaker (bass boost, rolled off, bright, etc). It would be worth understanding how that equipment measures and searching out that equipment. One man sweet highs are another man’s dull speaker and that is where standards come in and play a roll.

Resonances, uneven dispersion and driver miss matches are not what I would call taste differences. It is a short coming in the designs. Harman has a house tune too. It is 0.5db per octave drop from low to high.

measurement tools like REW are free and a mic cost less than many people’s power cords. Measuring the rooms/system response and doing positional EQ (moving the speakers/subs) can/will make a huge difference. Measuring decay time and adding the right amount of treatment really helps too. 
 

I have a pretty large room and ended up with eight 7” thick panels and a fully treated ceiling to get my decay times down. That added far more clarity than switching equipment ever could have. 

Yes with dsp you can improve the sound to your liking.not everybody likes the same sound.jbl ie salon has a fantastic research program read the reviews on salon 1 and the technology jbl has.i do want to listen to borresen cuz it looks like thier speakers are made of textreme.its the new kid on the block.happy listening and enjoy the ride.

IF speaker measures badly, but compensates the amp, combination may be fine. Say, marry bright speakers with rolling off highs of tube amp and get the neutral sounding system.

So would anyone buy a car that measures badly. Like does not brake well (speaker ringing) or sometimes does not accelerate (11 dB dips). For a 'character'?

@James633....... The X3 is not a tuning issue (rolled off or bright), the drivers simply don’t integrate and there is a lot of box noise.                                                                                                                                                                                       This statement is just NOT true...Michael Borresen is one of the most talented speaker designers in the world. If you can design and sell a speaker that retails for over 100K and people buy it....and I own them, you don't and probably have never heard them....There is no box noise. Borresen Basher...over and out.

I’ll take system synergy over measurements any day. I will take my ears over any measurements. If a speaker measures good, what does that mean? What amp did they use? A tube amp? A set? An analytical sounding amp or a warm sounding amp? There are some speakers that might measure well but I wouldn’t own them unless I had the warmest sounding amp, or I wouldn’t buy a warm sounding speaker with a warm sounding amp.

The biggest thing for me is to get a speaker sized right for your room without the need for extra room treatments or dsp to tailor the sound. I moved from a larger dedicated room to a medium size room 16’ in length. I had a very nice sounding larger speaker and even with using dsp and several super bass panels, the bass was overwhelming. In all of the audio shows I’ve been to for the last 25 or more years (ces, the show, rmaf, Tampa, and many others), the best sounding speakers have always been: revel, usher, raidho, Wilson, and totem.

I would have loved the Revel Salon 2 or Studio 2 speakers, but the bass would have to be tamed by panels or dsp. So I bought the newer release of Revel BE with the smaller woofer speakers that allow me to remove all the bass panels, still kept the ASC tube traps for corners, I stopped using dsp, and allowed me to get the speakers 1/3 of the distance into the room to get all the bass I need without using subwoofers.

Seems to me that how speakers sound should be the most important criteria.  We all have biases and preferences.  A speaker that is superb according to measurements but still does not sound "good" or "right" is not what we enjoy.  After all, the goal is reproduction of music, hopefully accurate, but it has to sound good.  Just my "two-bits" worth ... inflation, you know!

I respect Erin and the reviews he gives.  However, I do wonder if his review would have been different if the speakers were given to him by Borresen.

I was disappointed when I saw the measurements for the X3.   I think the engineering was not fully done on this speaker.   In the video he describes that the measurements line up with what he was hearing.    I heard a good quote a few months ago;  "Measurements are for dating but listening is for marriage".   The wisdom here is to look for speakers that measure well, but buy the ones that you love listening to.

The thing about Erin's review, for me, was that he claimed to hear this midrange "hole" in the sound before measuring and then backed up what he percepted by talking to others.  I've felt that a lot of his other reviews were way over-measured to the point of being burdensome. With electronics that makes perfect sense, but speakers are such a personal item that that approach seems sort of backwards. The Borrensen review, however, was done right and there was lots of collaboration. Guttenberg didn't want them taken out of his house, on the other hand. Just different approaches. Better just to examine everything and make your pick. Speakers are more personal than anything else.  

That's what made in China will get ya. 

I think the Borrensen line of speakers deliver some of the most grating and unpleasant sound I've heard in a very long time. My ears hear these speakers and they are just sound incredibly harsh. I don't really care if they measure well or not, I couldn't listen to those speakers for more than 5 minutes before being tired of them. 

I know they were hyped tremendously in the last year, but I just don't get it.

I agree with Mesonto. All Borresens sound harsh, and unpleasant to my ears. They image very well, but sound is so sterile, so mechanic, I can not stand more than few minutes. First few minutes, that hyper detail and imaging is interesting but after few minutes you do not want to spend to much time with them. 

I thought they sounded better than Erin's measurements would indicate.  They showed off some impressive qualities like speed, open window clarity and bass gut punch.  Imaging to my ears was an issue however.  

I was waiting for measurements to see the bass response F3 and was not happy with the 50 hz value.   That would imply the need for subwoofers and not something I prefer.  Lack of bass dynamic range is another issue.  The Borresens design goals and execution have created a new unique set of tradeoffs.  Every loudspeaker paradigm has its own issues.  We need to hear them to understand if the wows can make you forget about the blemishes.  

Data from the webpage which is easier to read.

https://www.erinsaudiocorner.com/loudspeakers/børresen_x3/
 

For those that have had X3s and no longer have them, what did you end up getting which we're much better?  Did you have to spend more or less?

I have had a pair for about four months now and absolutely love them, very musical and detailed.

And in response to vinylshadow, only the cabinet is made in China, everything else is made and assembled in Denmark

Y’all are fretting a bit much...

If i wanted a flat line just to please Amir/Erin, i could have just diy’d/built out a GR Research NX-otica or NX-Extreme on the cheap......and lived with over the counter lower quality drivers. It would sound fine and show y’all a flat line, for sure...Or get some sterile monitor.. Last i recall, every magnepan i had measured like true hiny, but i always loved the sound of it, etc

I never had this X3 ( i see 1 issue that’s relativley harder to fix, doable though)......But, i acquired the X6 used for 10k from a trust fund dude who seems to shed speakers quicker than socks, a deal i couldn’t refuse, couldn’t say no...no brainer for me. Will i sell my X6 with how its sounding? Hell, no...for the following reasons.

I had a plan...I wanted those high quality Borresen drivers and driver count, that I couldn’t just buy off the shelf, a speaker with good bones for playing with. I wanted those ’small’ drivers with the impulse response i need to carry through up to ~2.5khz before handoff to the ribbon. Cabinet has my preferred aesthetic and volume + finish i needed.

I have a custom crossover mod that i run with the tweeter level dropped lower (quite easy to do) and a slight bump about 2 db higher ~1k onwards before tweeter hand off for the spatial qualities i desire. This is very hard to otherwise find with the sheer cluster of flat hiny or bbc dip/trough speakers out there. Further, I have a low Q ~3db bump from ~80 to 250hz and Kef KC62 subs dovetailed on the low end getting down below 20 hz. At the end of it, no flat line but smooth low Q bumps exactly where i want it, just the way i like it...my modded X6 sounds like a less dark, spatially enhanced high clartity/resolution/detail version of a Pioneer S-1EX perhaps that cross-bred with a magnepan or something.. or if i almost turned on atmos at times, quite enjoyable i say. Maybe someday, i’ll go fully active with it or not.

I am sure if Michael Borresen wanted to give y’all a flatass line, he could do that in 30 mins. He has some hangup about not introducing a electrical phase shift with the bass/mid handover, whatever. Maybe, he was also trying to do something with this X3 as a ’lifestyle’ product as well, i.e., his majority market will put it in a living room or some suboptimal room modal hell, dinosaurs who refuse to use a sub, no treatment, etc where none of this mattered anyways.....

I mean... you could take my other speaker, a pristine measuring TAD, put it in some untreated living room modal hell, measure at your listening position and see what you get..keep looking for the long lost flat line boys.
Either way...don’t know...don’t care what exactly Borresen dude’s philosophy is.

P.S.
I actually run the X6 on very modestly priced electronics from Schiit. It never got "carried" by high end electronics and sounds like a million bucks.

You will always have people that say they hate a certain well beloved speaker, regardless of measurement.

Ls50 and 50 meta, lots of lovers, lots of haters. 

Some of the Spatial open baffle speakers, lots of lovers, lots of haters. 

The same for lots of Focal and B&W models.

If bad measurements justify your dislike of a certain speaker, I assume good measurements would automatically make you love those?

Can we measure everything that counts, or does it count what we measure?. To my ears they sound great, I don´t care what the measurements say.

Some say a straight line (frequency) is the perfect way to do it. To my ears it sounds horrible. Who says the straight line is the right one?

I´d just trust my ears. I heard them, I liked them. No big deal. 😀 

Cheers KnockKnock 12

I use measurements as a guide when shopping for equipment including speakers because I tend to like a balanced sound that’s easy to EQ.  I had an old set of powered 4-way towers that didn’t measure well but I loved the booming lower end.  I moved on to more balanced speakers when the amps went.  To me it’s all about what sounds and looks good to you in your listening room and fits your budget.  

My whole system is on ASR's shat list and it sounds great... I wouldn't worry about it too much.   Measurements and how something sounds in a real world setting don't always align.  Many variables, especially the room they end up in 

IMO the important issue here is NOT that the X3 measured poorly but the sound I heard at Axpona 2023 was a speaker that was not musically coherent. 

Borensen speakers are not bright , they sound amazing, I listen to their c1 monitor 16k so impressed though I have 13 pair of speakers ? I end up buying the x1!monitor.The x1 cabinet are superb and very quiet. This speakers made me realize how a good cabinet sounds. And it made me to go back to listen with my diapason adamantes, technic, and Norh marble speakers. Now I appreciate them more because of x1 quiet presentation.it teach me to finally realize how a good built cabinet does. Iam not really into measurement . If your ears prefer other sound don’t buy them. Choose the one that will make your ears happy.

@kennymac..............I totally agree with your posts...You Make Sense.  The X-3 have to get off the ground. Iso Acoustics or The new Axxses  Isolation pads w/ titanium rollers change the sound noticeably for the better......Some tweaks work really good....others are snake oil. These x-3's are a tremendous Value for 11K.

I've heard the X3 finally and my initial thought was dam nice but the more I listened the less I liked it..There is an obvious issue with midrange.I think the review hits the nail squarely.This all maybe for nothing as its been replaced or soon will be as we are aware how things at Borresen change rather quickly.For me id wait for the better /upgraded/replaced version or buy the X at firesale prices which I'm sure won't be long.

Borrensen’s marketing(trickle-down theory) has convinced(brainwashed) many that the X3 shares many sonic virtues and quality of the upper level Borrensen loudspeakers which is not true. It’s unclear where the X3 is assembled, where the cabinets and even the drivers are manufactured. This type of ambiguity should not exist at this price point if a company desires transparency and respect.

I guess Perlisten is looking a bit better now. :)

Im sure the Borresens are fine speakers too. It’s too subjective to take anyone’s word for it. It’s different from other audio equipment. I think measuring things is important, but speakers are so personal I think it’s less indicative of how a person will feel about the sound. People aren’t necessarily wanting perfect accuracy/neutrality from a speaker. 

I am in as soon as they plug that hole in the midrange.

Erin's results on the X3 is odd or at least unusual. Not flat responses are not that unusual by designers' choice, budget and performance/cost tradeoffs, or QC fails to name a few possible causes. What I am puzzled about is the ~12 dB suck out then peak between 200-350 Hz. Something (perhaps woofers' mechanics or enclosure?) is in a sharp undamped resonance condition.

This also shows up in the Cumulative Spectral Decay plot.

Just nerding out on what is the source of that resonance still ringing along 20 mS after test impulse is done.

Ouch, the forum's auto image reformat of frequency response plots from landscape to square really exarated dB scale. See originale here:

Erin's Audio Corner Børresen X3 Floorstanding Speaker Review

Did AGD/Borresen address these findings?  Curious to see what they have to say and even better if they can produce their own related measurements.

in response to dayglow...

As I stated above indeed the cabinets are made in China but all drivers and assembly of such are done in Denmark

@kennymacc

Measurements, smeasurements........The speakers haven’t receive almost universal praise by accident!!!

Actually, they don’t seem to have received universal praise.

Erins review is hardly high praise, and some comments in this thread

From people who have heard the speakers, Are critical as well.

The measurements, especially in this case are quite

useful and predicting some elements of the sound, Especially that

Scoop in the mid range. Erin Immediately heard it.
A friend of mine Who has spent time with the X6

Was immediately bothered by it too. The Fact One would be be able to hear a

In the mid range would’ve been predicted from the measurements.

So measurements can matter.

@mbmi 

This statement is just NOT true...Michael Borresen is one of the most talented speaker designers in the world.
 

The design problems with that speaker Uncovered by the measurements

Are certainly true.

And if Michael Borresen Designed those speakers

It is strong evidence against your claim that he is one of the most talented speaker

in the world!

@prof

I never stated that measurements don’t matter, because they most certainly do, to some audiophiles. However, I say again, I doubt if the average audiophile pays much attention to measurements when it comes down to choosing a particular pair of speakers who’s sound qualities have captured their emotion as well as their imagination. I believe that most people ultimately follow their ears and their hearts over how strictly a pair of speakers measure. Personally, I’ve listened extensively to both the Borresen X3 and X6 (and other borresen speakers as well) on a couple occasions, and despite their shortcomings, I thought they both sounded incredible. Could I live with the X3 or X6 long tern? Absolutely!!! As they say, there’s no perfect speaker. Happy listening.

I have owned/own 4 pairs of speakers that all have full measurements (“spins”) on the Kipple system. It just worked out that way and I did not buy due to seeing measurements

My thoughts are as a whole I think what you see is what you get from the measurements, but two things really stand out. #1 is the estimated in room response. The measurements track pretty closely to how my room measures with those speakers and how I hear it. #2 is the directivity, it really does give insight to how the soundstage will play out in room.

where I feel the measurements lack is in transients, or at least I don’t know what I am looking for to see it. Some speakers have far more kick/snap than others even though the in room estimates are pretty similar. There is more to be learned and understood for sure.

I have also not cared for near perfect measuring speakers (Kef blade 2). They lacked the life and detail I get out of my JBL 4367 that happens to also measure very well. I am not sure where to look in the measurements to see that difference or if it is even there. In my mind a speaker would need to be able to produce a square wave to truly represent the impulse but I don’t than any can.

Ribbon tweeters and cone drivers generally prove difficult to match seamlessly. By way of example, I always preferred the soft dome tweeter ProAc's to their ribbon tweeter equivalents. Borresen make a big thing of their crossovers not having phase shift through the midrange. If that is the case here, it looks like it has been achieved by sacrificing frequency response accuracy. BTW Subjectively, Borresen speakers are not bright, but the full range speakers can be difficult to control in the bass. The measurements appear to bear that out.

@samureyex 

I have to say I have never read of anyone hating Rockport speakers on this or any other forum. But I completely understand your point. 
 

where I feel the measurements lack is in transients, or at least I don’t know what I am looking

Driver impulse response