Unfortunately (and the drummers should know this best ), recordings cannot capture / retain the sound of real drums, cymbals, high hats, etc. Recordings ( and the playback system ) fall short of reality. My modified and tweaked Lascalas are enjoyable playing recordings, but not like being close to a drum set. Just the reality of it.....
Best Examples Of Cymbal Decays On A Recording
Pleas provide an example of any recording with an outstanding cymbal decay.
...or, any recording that gives an excellent example that showcases a decay of a particular sound...whether a vocal or anything else.
Thank you.
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One of my favorites for crash cymbal / decay is Creedence “heard it through the grapevine”. To me it requires a bit of focusing because the recording Seems to have the mics slightly at a distance from the drums. Again, to me it’s one of the most elegant stereo recordings that pleases me. if you compare, say to a Steely Dan recording, almost all instruments are recorded individually but Gadd’s crash cymbal is to my recollection at a distance from the mic giving it an underpowered effect.
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@bdp24 -
I have not doubt: there are those following such a practice. Happily: none I've ever met. Certainly: not my method! |
My Foolish Heart, the first track on Bill Evans Waltz for Debby, has a prominent, extended ride cymbal to start off the song. Pretty much any track from that Village Vanguard session has delicate, airy, sweet cymbal decay. Just a lovely recording, perhaps my favorite live recording if I had to choose. Also, Chick Corea Trilogy or Trilogy 2 are also both fabulously recorded live sets, with multiple examples of extended cymbal decay, and fantastic drumming by Brian Blade taboot. For example, 500 Miles High, Blade starts his drumming about 2 minutes in, with perhaps the airiest, euphonic ride decays you will hear. An incredible recording, almost microscopic in its detail, but not fatiguing in that regard. Pretty much any track from Trilogy 2 has beautiful sounding cymbals. The fact that the decay is still enjoyable with compressed youtube audio linked below is impressive... Sounds better with proper quality from Qobuz which has Trilogy in 24 bit 96khz.
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Thanks for your insight into recording. Very interesting.
You still live in the Portland area? Have you been to the symphony since they renovated the stage acoustics and installed the DSP system? I was panicked when they announced the changes. But my understanding is that most of the renovation was acoustical… which has resulted in much better bass… differentiation is phenomenal in the bass instruments now, and a very profound reduction in reflections. My seats are front and center… I have not heard any amplified sound… so either they are not using it much for the syphony… or I am in a position where I can’t hear it. |
Addendum: The final section of the first sentence in the last paragraph of my above post (phew ;-) reads "made to simulate live music." I was of course referring to instances where that was the actual intent of the producer (and perhaps artist/band). Far more common is a very different intent: During the playback of a track (whether in recording or mixing), the engineer will run his tape, A/B-ing the sound with that of a current best-selling song. He then manipulates the sound of his recording with a number of pieces of outboard gear (and of course his mixing board), all in his attempt to make the recording sound as much like a current hot song or album as possible. No references to the sound of live music at all, purely subjective. |
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Abdullah Ibrahim & Ekaya: Sotho Blue. Great jazz CD with not that many cymbal crashes but when they happen, they happen, with long trails that are heard covering the soundstage.
Also, European Jazz Trio: Saudade. A great Japanese recording with some of the best mike placements.
All the best, |
Also as a drummer, what’s more determinative of cymbals than specific brands is weight. I’ve got a heavy vintage Zidjian ride, two medium-weight Sabina crashes, a fairly light Zildfian hi hats so I get that nice “chick” sound that cuts through. If I can clearly hear a heavy ride (deeper tone with more stick sound audible) and/or heavier versus thinner/crisper hi hats that goes a long way with me. Check out Cyrus Chestnut’s self-titled CD, Keb’ Mo’s “Slow Down” CD, and Keith Jarrett’s “Live at the Blue Note” just to name a few. Oh, and also Steve Gadd and Friends “Live at Voce” and “Oscar Peterson meets Roy Hargrove and Ralph Moore.” If a system can’t clearly discern the difference between heavy or thinner cymbals it’s a non starter for me. |
The album "Benzaiten" by Osamu Kitajima (1974) has a variety of cymbals, triangles, and various Japanese percussion instruments that make it a great test record (as well as a testament to how creative a musician can be before being lured to LA for a record contract). Not available on Qobuz, but available on Amazon HD. |
By the way people (especially you drummers): A few years back I was cutting a track in Flora Recording & Playback, a fantastic studio in Portland, Oregon. T Bone has recorded there, as has Bill Frisell, Mavis Staples, REM, The Jayhawks, many others. Anyway, I brought along my Ludwig Black Beauty snare drum and an assortment of cymbals (drummers often used their own snare drum and cymbals with the "house kit", both in recording situations and in live performances). Engineer/owner Tucker Martine had his house kit---a nice set of DW’s---set up well out into the middle of the medium-size room, a good sign (one small studio I was in in North Hollywood, CA had me set up right against a cinderblock wall. As I anticipated, the resulting recorded sound was God-awful. I moved my set into the middle of the room, and all was well. I hope the engineer learned from that lesson ;-). Tucker let me know that he had spent a lot of time tuning and positioning the drums, and assured my client (a singer/songwriter/guitarist who engaged my services) and I that we would be happy with the drum sound he got. Looking around at the framed pics of some of his clients told me I should trust him ;-) and use his complete kit, including snare and cymbals. My favorite ride cymbal sound is that heard in a lot of small-combo Jazz recordings made in the 1950’s: each cymbal tap made with the tip of the stick (rather than the shoulder) produces a very percussive, sharp "click" sound, not the broad "tang" cymbal sound heard in a lot of Rock recordings (listen to Ginger Baker’s cymbals. Terr-i-ble. I heard them live, and they sounded just as bad on stage. Now listen to Jim Gordon’s; beautiful!). That click sound is commonly attributed to the cymbals many Jazz drummers were playing in the 1950’s: the K. Zildjians made in Turkey. The problem with Turkish K Zildjians is that they were hand made, and the consistency was all over the map: a few sound REALLY good, a lot sound TERRIBLE! Finding a good one is really hard, and expensive. So we do a take, and on playback the recorded sound of the ride cymbal had that percussive click sound I love so much. The cymbal sure didn’t sound that way in the room, and in the recorded sound I thought I could hear the how and why Tucker was able to produce that cymbal sound. I asked him: "Did you use compression and/or a noise gate on the overhead mics?" (which capture the sound of the cymbals). He was impressed, replying "Yes", confirming my suspicion. Explaining how a compressor and noise gate work would take too much space to do here. You see, audiophiles, in Pop music---or even most studio-made recordings---the sound you hear through your hi-fi system is often not "the absolute sound", but rather an artificially-created one, made to simulate live music. Sometimes the recorded sound is actually better than what the music sounded like in the room in which it was recorded. It’s like that great scene in David Lynches Mulholland Dr., when the master-of-ceremonies waves his hands on stage, pronouncing that what the two women had just seen (and thought they heard) was "an illusion". Harry Pearson should have spent more time in recording studios ;-) . |
Jim Brock is well known in recording circles for his percussion work, and his 1985 album, Pasajes may offer some of what you want. I know there is one brief cut late on side one that is just cymbals. I was the engineer and mixer, and I can say that we used the best audio practices we knew then to create the sonics. The drum overheads and the only mics for the cymbal cut were a matched Neumann TLM-170 pair (Blumlein), through MCI 600 console electronics onto 2" analog tape. The eventual mix was to 1/2" analog tape from which the LP was mastered by Bill Kipper at Masterdisk, NYC. Acoustic Sounds, Ltd has a few copies available that were pressed back then,
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Joe Morello's Zildjians, on my 60's, Columbia pressing of Time Out (Take Five) and Mick Fleetwood my first (1977) Nautilus pressing of Rumours (Dreams). A good LP for telling if a system is resolving (ie: between Paiste and Zildjian, among other things): the Sheffield Drum record. Then again, if one has been/is able to record their own tracks*: they are blest. *That's the best! |
@bdp24 - +1 Gotta wonder: how many can tell the difference (in sound) between, say Turkish and chinese Zildjians? Between a Paiste and Zildjian, or whether it's got rivets? Was that a Hi-Hat center strike, or: Snare rim shot? Many systems won't resolve and many more folks can't tell (via a lack of familiarity) the differences. I've had to point out to a couple experienced Drummers (albeit: over decades) that their own drum heads/skins had lost their resonance/pitch. Then again: as long as the listener is pleased with their musical reproduction, that's ALL that matters. Happy listening!
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Bruce Cockburn’s album from 1991, Nothing But A Burning Light, track 2 Kit Carson, has Cymbal crashes with decay to give any tweeter a workout. Also his recent album Crowing Ignites track Bells of Gethsemane. Mind blowing percussion and guitar work, with reference SQ. Another long time fave of mine…Loggins and Messina Pathway to Glory, from Full Sail. Finally, Keith Jarrett and Jack DeJohnette on ECM, track 2 of 1971s Rita and Daitya…great cymbal sound for the era. |
The double-stick technique on the long ride of Boston's Foreplay (Sib Hashian) cut ... a rare sonic texture; simple and rich. Neil Peart's jazzy crescendo of layered cymbals near the end of La Villa Strangioto is sublime ... the skillful master of veiling complexity and nuance. Miss his energy Art Pepper Meets the Rhythm Section ... too numerous to mention. Great question OP ... sorry I strayed a bit
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Ah @rbstehno, but WHAT cymbals? I have A. Zildjians, K. Zildjians, Paiste 602's, and Bosphorus, each of which sounds different than the others. I have recordings made by myself with small capsule condenser mics and a Revox A77 of some of them, as well as recordings made in pro studios (I keep a log of which mics the engineers used). I employ both in my loudspeaker evaluations. |
Since I’ve been a drummer for over 60 years, I have always brought in selected music when auditioning speakers that favored the drums, mainly the cymbals. I knew what a larger ride cymbal sounds like as well as a good hi hat pair and the music I would bring in had examples of that. Of course there is more to listen to when auditioning like the bass, guitar, organ, horns, etc.. but if the cymbals didn’t sound right, it would be hard to pick that speaker. In the 70’s when I got my 1st hifi system, my speakers had the heil air transformer mid/tweeter. For the last 6 years, I’ve been using a Diamond tweeter |
On T Bone Burnett’s Truth Decay album (Takoma Records TAK 7080, released in 1980), the song "Driving Wheel" (written by T Bone and Billy Swan) ends side one of the LP. The song comes to it’s end, drummer David Kemper (a fantastic drummer who came out of the Tulsa, Oklahoma scene) punctuating the last note with a cymbal crash. That crash slowly fades away for a LONG time, the eventual near silence broken by the re-emergence of acoustic guitar and upright bass, the drums then re-entering after a coupla more bars. In other words, the song had a false ending. That is the case on the original pressing of the LP, when Takoma was being distributed by Chrysalis Records. Later in the 1980’s (I think, perhaps the 90's) the Truth Decay LP was being distributed by Allegiance Records, who had the album remastered for their repress of the album. Whomever did the remastering apparently didn’t listen to the entire master tape, and thought the false ending was a real ending. When the cymbal crash had faded to near silence, the mastering engineer ended the album side, cutting off the rest of the song! When looking for a copy of Truth Decay, look for the "Distributed By Chrysalis Records" line on the bottom of the back of the cover. It not only has the unabridged version of "Driving Wheel", but also sounds better than the Allegiance Records pressing. |
@boothroyd - I came here to say that. You beat me to it..... I agree. It's pretty amazing. |
