Battle of the Older DAC

I would try to listen to a few DACs if possible.   Not sure I would buy a digital component that is 10 plus years old.     What's your budget?

I agree with oddiofyl.  DAC technology has progressed quite a bit in the last few years.  Look into the newest chips, then try to find one that's well designed.  

Go to Audio Science Review and read the test reports on all the DAC's. Measurements don't lie! Subjective opinions are just that - opinions - and worth little!

The last ten years the sound quality of DACs has improved significantly. Consider a newer one… maybe three to five years, you will get a significant discount and probably much higher quality.

Do not waste your time on Audio Science Review (ASR). The information there is completely worthless for evaluating the actual sound quality of components.

But they have not tested "Every" DAC, most of what they have tested is lower end stuff. Bought the Topping DAC and ended up giving it to my hearing impaired cousin. ASR has some okay information but they are a far cry from being the authority on anything. @jasonbourne71 is so predictable with his posts. I  am sure @audiotroy will chime in with his advice, 1,2,3.

Go to Audio Science Review and read the test reports on all the DAC’s. Measurements don’t lie! Subjective opinions are just that - opinions - and worth little!

jasonbourne71

Go to Audio Science Review and read the test reports ...

Reading ASR is sorta like reading the Onion, but without the wit.

Thank-you for the advice, much appreciated. 

Listening to a variety of DAC options in my own (heavily compromised) room would be the ideal way to go, just limited options to do that. I feel a trip to the closest dealer with a listening room is the next best step. 

Initial take on ASR was interesting, it supported my limited understanding of digital audio (they are just ones and zeros!)

Then had my mind absolutely blown with the very clear difference a different power cable made on the streamer of a high end system.  Still getting over that one.  And now coming around to the fact that every link in the chain can make a difference, some more obvious than others, obviously. A power cord on a streamer...honestly.

And to answer the question that I missed above, budget would top out at USD 2k realistically. Came into this upgrade path wanting a new amp, but that is another story.

I have to disagree I think older Dacs can sound just fine and even really good. Older multibit chips seem all the rage and not much in the way of advances in power supplies or analog output stages so what really improved in the last 10 years? My Dac was built in 1995 and sounds fantastic.

@jond +1

These observations by Vlad, of Audio Mirror, make much sense.

OP: No DAC, by itself, is a silver bullet to fantastic SQ. It takes a system. And a system takes time to build. Stay within your budget. Take your time. And no - streaming is not simply 1’s & 0’s.

OP,

Most of us had a moment early on in the pursuit of high end audio where logic said something shouldn’t matter and the actual sonic difference was huge. It becomes clear that numbers and measurement only tell a very small part of the story. That’s when listening becomes the number one tool, and you spend lots of time honing it.

OP for around $2k put Bryston BDA-3 on your list. Also don’t shy away from the older PS Audio DSD DAC. 

@cleeds ++

I had the bee’s knees in 1995 with my California Audio Labs Delta/Alpha combo, an older ladder style (multibit) DAC of some renown with 12AX7 tube output. Very musical, but my Yggdrasil wipes it on the floor, much better in virtually every way. I still have the older CAL setup in my bedroom stereo.

I have had about 10 DACs in the house over the last 5 years, from $700 to $15 000. Most of them sounded good. I do not think DAC tech has changed much in the last 5 years. Once jitter was figured out the difference between DACs came down to tastes, warm, neutral, bright, chip, no chip. etc.

The best DAC I have owned by far was the latest Schitt Yggi+ OG. They do not make this one anymore since a piece of electronics they used is no longer available. So, I am not sure if the AG version of the Yggi+ can be upgraded to the last iteration that I have.

My second-best DAC is the Schitt Yggi+ LIM. That DAC is not as detailed as the OG but it has a place in my office system, and I love it there. Only issue I have is whether to covert the LIM to the replacement for the OG. The replacement is called More is Better and is supposedly closer to the sound of my OG and not the LIM.

In my 2 systems I can tell the differences between the OG and the LIM. Especially my best system. I also use fibre optic to stream.

What is your budget ?

ASR reviews are useless.  I have a audiophile friend in town that swears by it, as one of the posters above stated they mostly review lower priced gear which there is absolutely nothing wrong other than stating its state of the art due to measurements which have no bearing on the sound quality that they produce.  The whole system has an impact on what you get,  I have a Benchmark Dac 2 HGC in my bedroom for headphones and when I put it in my main system I definitely feel the let down in sound quality compared to my Wells Audio Cipher Dac(tube).  I have owned many good dacs over the years and have always went back to a tube based DAC.  Ones to look for in your budget are the Wavelength DACS with the N2 board & ANK tube dacs factory built.  I would have recommended my Wells Dac but I am respecting your budget of $2k.  

My system is:

Herron 360 Reference ESP preamp

Herron VTPH-2a Phono Preamp

Sota Nova Turntable With Jelco 850 tonearm w/Haniwa HCTR-01 cartridge

Wells Audio Cipher Dac level 1 w/Bybee AC purifier's installed

432Evo Aeon Mkiii streamer

Miyajima OTL 2010 amplifiers(mono bloc)

hORNS Mummy speakers

Good Luck with your search. 

There is a brand new version of the Yggdrasil now, the Yggy+.

I had the original Yggy and loved it.  Every time I put a better power cord on it, the improvement came through clearly.

But you should only buy a DAC that you can audition in your own system and trust your ears (after an adequate break in time.)  You can do that with the Yggy+.

@incoming

Yes; the best option is to hear a dac in your room, especially if it is acoustically less than optimal. 

There are quite a few dealers who offer trial periods and return policies (without restocking fees). FYI, you will have to pay shipping both ways if you return.

PM me and I will provide a list.

Among these is TMR, who sell used as well as new.

Many thanks for the recommendations, and I always enjoy the discussions within this community.  Plenty of research ahead, which suits me just fine. Also plenty of envy for the options and service available in the US.

For those of us outside it is a bit more of a pot luck situation.

The Auralic is on loan from an enthusiast who sells new and second hand equipment as a side business. Haven't come across a retailer who provides trials of new kit, but also haven't specifically asked. Time to do that too.

Appreciate the direction folks.

@incoming

A quick Google search brings up names of audio clubs in N. Zealand:

Auckland Audio Society

Wellington Audio Club

Sound System Community NZ (Facebook)

Perhaps you could borrow a DAC or two...

Would folks advise a Gustard unit such as R26, considering OP's stated budget?

Some of the best DAC’s I’ve heard are based on older D/A chips and designs overall. If the design and implementation is solid and it leads to a natural, organic and "analogue" sound (my preference), it’s all that really matters. Carriers of that type of sound are Weiss DAC’s (like the DAC1, which is sonically very much akin to the one I use myself (a small Danish brand not known to many)). The Auralic DAC’s I’ve heard sit in a rather different sonic realm, but the important thing is: listen to some DAC items, don’t let the age of the D/A chip/design dictate your choice, and just go with the sound you prefer.

@decooney i would recommend the Gustard R26. I think it's a really good dac for the money. 

@sls883 "decooney i would recommend the Gustard R26. I think it's a really good dac for the money." 

Hello, okay, thanks and btw I'm not looking for dacs right now and hopefully not again for the near future. Had to check myself to see if I was part of this thread. Maybe this note was intended for someone else or different thread?

Best of luck to everyone on the dac hunting in any case.  

@cfarrow - great to see somebody else with Herron Audio gear; I've got that same line stage preamp and phono preamp as you.... 

@larsman @cfarrow   I too have the Herron pair.  It's good stuff.

Hey, don’t you get tired of people trying to sell you on smoke and mirrors?? No matter what people are telling you, newer DAC’s doesn’t mean better DAC’s or better sound.  This is completely delusional and definitely lacks common sense.  My advice to you is you yourself test old and new at the price range you’re looking for and make a logical choice for yourself.  I know you hope to find the answers here from individuals but honestly too many people use this site to troll and bash others so do yourself a favor and test with your ears within your system. With regards to whatever media you will be using as a playback weather it is CD’s or streaming, at least you know the quality and development of CD’s hasn’t changed in a long time and the technology has been around since the 80’s.  Streaming has and will continue to evolve but we’re talking about catching up with CD sound quality.  Makes sense??

Mine is from 2017. I simply enjoy the music and don’t sweat doing an upgrade. 

The PS Audio Direct Stream MK II Dac can be had used for under $2K and it is very good.

https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/650036704-ps-audio-directstream-dac-wbridge-ii-for-sale-outstanding-condition/

I replaced it with a Mola Mola Tambiqui and it was a really close call between which was better when I A-B’d them with a friend. We both picked the Mola Mola as better but not by much.

If I have to buy used dac , I will look for Theta , yaggy and Metrum.

I would add RME ADI2 to the list. I had this and the Chord Quest. They are both great  for the price but quite different. Ended up feeding the RME right into my power amp. After much switching, it just sounded better  - fuller bass, plenty of detail (though Chord beats it there) etc etc. I think you have to listen for yourself. 

The RME has a graphic equalizer and volume control, and a good clock if you are using USB. 

I have a very old Mark Levinson before it was Mark Levinson which is called proceed. I’ve read that the dacs Are and can be very good on ML equipment and I can affirm that is true.
How could I possibly know?

I have a proceed AVP and avp 2 both of which have built in Dacs.

The dac On the Levenson is excellent. I also have a modern dac the cyan 2 from holo. They are comparable.

The ML has more space and depth and air, but is a little bit brighter and sharper than the cyan. I like them both they are different. I am hard-pressed to say that one is better than the other.

So this may be the exception. If you grab a component that was once upon a time very high end, you may get a Pleasant surprise.

@ceennison53,

Possibly a PS Audio Direct Stream MkII may be available for substantial discount as preowned, but less than $2000 seems too low for current market to me.  The referenced link you provided is for a MkI, not MkII.

I have moved this into a second system, but I still like my MHDT Labs Orchid. I had an Auralic Vega. The Orchid is more "analog" sounding. A little on the warm side. It doesn’t do DSD and isn’t Roon ready if any of those things matter.

While we are giving shout outs to Herron gear, I have his latest monoblocks, preamp, and phono stage.

@jasonbourne71

Are you suggesting that the equipment with the best specs/measurements is the best sounding equipment? Either you’re a genius or just another foul.

ASR is a data point, that’s all. It’s neither useless nor the last word in audio. However Amir does have a large group of followers who amplify his opinions and it can get really over the top.

Anyway, I would say that opinions on DACs here won’t really help the OP make the right choice for his system. The OP really needs to try DACs with his own gear in his own room.

It’s one thing if you’re choosing speakers - even at the dealer’s showroom, you are going to get some idea of tone, bass depth, what have you. The differences between DACs are more subtle and frankly require long term listening to discern...not just the difference but the preference.

OP: first, determine your specific objectives. Warmer sound? Crisper bass? Just upgrade for doing so won’t max the value of your budget. Then, find some gear that has a return policy - many do. Listen to each for a week or more. What sounds awesome for 5 minutes can be irksome 60 minutes later...

Oh, also, I think some older DACs can sound wonderful. Much of the quality of the DAC is in the analog part of the implementation.  Newer DACs are good for added function like DSD, higher bitrates and sampling rates, more filters and such.  I have a 2012 W4S DAC that still sounds pretty, albeit my go-to DACs are somewhat newer. 

It’s a journey not a destination. Good luck and have fun!

I don't know what country you're in, but here in the good old USA Amazon has a practically effortless return policy and you can easily audition DACs from Gustard, Denafrips and Topping, among others.  Can help to sharpen your listening skills to help you know what you like...

For less than your budget, the Bel Canto e series is worth a listen. I still run my DAC3.5mk2 with VBL and Reflink (was sphile class A until replaced by Bel Canto Black EX also class A) but hope to sell soon to get a higher end chord. The DAC2.8 on agon is probably decent too but maybe not in the same level. Don't forget how important all the cables are, they can really change your sound.

@tannoy56 : So you belong to the "golden ears" crowd. Opinions are the only things that matter to you in choosing gear. That doesn't sound smart! Opinions are fallible, measurements are not!

DACs are the one place where I cheap out. Digital tech is evolving so rapidly, that the cheap stuff today performs reasonable well against the better older stuff.  Plus it seems to have attracted lots of entrepreneural spirit, i.e. inventive and disruptive. My amps, TTs even speakers are several generations old and performing hold their own. The added advantage is that I can regularly feed my GAS without breaking the bank. 

Buying a DAC based upon someone's opinion is stupid. You might as well ask a Ouija board for advice.

@dancub ​​​​​​+1: Today's three-figure sub-$1K DAC's are competitive with the high-price stuff. No need to spend more.

@jasonbourne71 

Not long time ago, ASR publish their data on  Topping LA90 integrated amplifier - the best they ever measured and cost only $800.00 U.S. dollars. Are you convinced that this is the best sounding audio gear ever made just because it measures better? If't was so easy to determine what gear sound's best (just by measurements) there is no need for hi-fi shows, or reviews and discussions on equipment. Not to mention, that this forum, you actively participate for no apparent reason, will be worthless. Do you mind telling us - what the hell are you doing on this  forum?

There is a lot to take in here, particularly for someone as new to the game as I am, and that's without the ASR takes.

@jji666 it is an excellent point to start with what i am trying to achieve. And this is where newbies with less trained ears can struggle. Even, if im honest, in being able to explain what we are hearing or what we wish to achieve sonically well enough to be guided by those with more experience. I started with better speakers which then introduced harshness at the top end. Current amp has tone controls and less treble helped. I was focused on a new amp, but a conversation with an enthusiast made it clear the DAC was the bottleneck. He was kind enough to lend me the Auralic and the difference was huge, even with the current amp. Luckily the same guy let me demo a few amps but that harshness was a problem on them all. @nagel this is where I got my first lesson in cables. Replacing speaker cables and RCA from DAC to amp solved that. Tone controls are now bypassed, but still comes close to a harshness on a few tracks, generally older or lower quality. Coming back to amps, the first was this Xindac V30 with replaced tube's (Gold Lion KT88 x 4, NOS telefunken ECC83 x 2, NOS Raytheon 6SN7 x2) https://www.trademe.co.nz/4897796592 and it was FUN! Tons of glorious bass, but (and this is where things get tricky to explain) ilthe sound was too much. So powerful. Almost makes you jump. Then came a Primare with streamer and DAC. Everything was sweet and balanced but the bass was lacking. It also had some troubling technical issues that put me off. A cheap Rotel was awful, demo lasted about 10 seconds and lastly a Musical Fidelity M5si that was awful in a different way. I could tell the soundstage and separation were streets ahead but vocals terrible. 29 palms was just unpleasant for the vocals. Demo lasted about 20 minutes.

And that brings everything up to date. If I could get the Primare clarity and most of the bass of the Xindac i would be happy.

And this thread came about as I was considering a different DAC to the Auralic i has been borrowing. In the end i bought it as it solved a major bottleneck and was OK price wise. I can upgrade when I get the opportunity to demo others on my room

This isn't that simple in New Zealand (to clear that one up @boulder_bob :) as I will be largely reliant on local used options. Dealers just dont have the volume of sales here to be able to unbox and loan new items for demo.

At least a major bottleneck has gone and cables are making the high notes tolerable. I do feel like tube needs to enter the equation somewhere.

One audio store in Auckland used a Prima Luna hybrid amp that I am pretty sure was set up with the intention of pushing sales of Wharfedale Dentons. It made them sing, so could be a good option for my speakers. I just can't demo it and to pull the trigger would be a NZD11k gamble. 

This is, to borrow a phrase, the price you pay for living in paradise.

That's probably enough rambling for now.

I dare say my issues could be 90% resolved with that Xindac and different tube's, but the unit also has a hum (assume all tube amps do) and runs HOT. Would be an issue in summer here.

Anyway, thanks for reading and for all the advice. I have plenty of options to explore when the Auralic needs an upgrade. 

Check out the LAiV Harmony DAC. Had mine for a few months--awesome.

Many positive written and video reviews, mostly all spot on.

I also suspect this is a steal at roughly USD$2155

Bel Canto DAC 3.7, VB Power Supply, Ref Link Asynchronous USB Converter https://www.trademe.co.nz/4907309877

Bel Canto makes good gear that could be a very good Dac hard to say without having heard it. Will that seller ship to NZ?

What about older EMM LABS DAC with matching Transport. Optical Done Right! Only thing is it has no volume Control. What do you think of using Gold point passive volume Control in that situation? Ed Meitner was the genius behind that digital technology back in the day! Changes in power supplies etc. are where things get interesting! The DAC's themselves are not the key to modern improvement over the older stuff! I don't stream either! Too many possible problems! I like physical media etc. So instead of moving forward in newer stuff I went the other way ! I do have a Ayon tube CD player and also have used a Berkeley Alpha DAC with a Synchro Mesh Jitter reducing device with great results. So who knows! I like the build of the EMM LABS though over 15 years old still sounds great! Good buy too I thought for around $3k for both DAC and SACD Transport. 

@jond that seller is in NZ. Trademe is the NZ equivalent of Craigslist.