Battle of the Older DAC
Would this be a simple choice for you?
Looking at upgrading my DAC and at similar price points have options of an Auralic Vega (2013) and a Schiit Yggdrasil OG A2 (2018?)
I have heard the Auralic and it is impressive, but the reputation of the Yggy looks solid.
Would be keen to hear from anyone who has experience of both or if the choice is clearer that it appears to me.
As ever, would love to hear your thoughts.
And the other question as to whether those measurements include all of the right things in the right way in the same manner humans are actually hearing and interpreting things. I tend to believe there a gaps in the technology, tools, and processes used with a lot more to be learned before calling it realistic or absolutely accurate.
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It's funny, isn't it? Imagine buying audio gear based solely on measurements, and convincing yourself that is sounds great because someone else hooked it up, took just several data points from the many millions of pieces of data that affect how the unit actually sounds, and explained it measured great! So they blindly come to the conclusion there is no point listening to anything else, taking anyone else's advice or experiences, or actually arriving at your their own conclusions and deciding for themselves because the "numbers" don't lie! They are using their sense of sight to hear. Talk about a doctrine.
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I bought one of the best measuring DACs on the market and it was based on reports over at ASR, and their opinions about the best measurements resulting in good sound. Well that turned out to be one of the least engaging components I’ve had in any of my systems to date. DAC got returned, tested fine. Refunded, thankfully. Some of the best DACs I’ve had were based on other people’s experiences and opinions and recommendations which turned out to be really good. Go figure.
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moonwatcher I'd have to say it's a combination of both. But over the past couple of years, I have the Pontus driven by a Denafrips Iris DDC via I2S; and that has a lot to do with the way they sound in my system. I find the Pontus/Iris bass to be weighty, punchy, textured, and is well defined. It also is very slightly smoothed out and integrates well with the midrange.....part of the reason I suspect that the combination is such an easy DAC to love. I find the Pontus/Iris to be fun, energetic, but also not in your face or at all fatiguing.....just all around enjoyable. I've upgraded a preamp, 2 amps, and speakers; and the Pontus/Iris have not yet been outclassed to the point of needing to be replaced immediately. I've compared the Pontus/Iris combination to a bunch of other DACs, but never pulled the trigger as I didn't think they would greatly improve the overall sound. Yes some were more detailed, some were more punchy in the bass, and some quicker....but only the Holo Audio May KTE DAC (at $5,600 new), Denafrips Terminator II ($6,000 new) and Terminator Plus ($7,600 new) bettered the Pontus/Iris in total.....I even preferred the Pontus/Iris combination to the bigger brother Denafrips Venus II at $3,100 new. It's not as punchy as say a Holo Audio May DAC, nor a Chord.....and I have never done a direct comparison between a Yggy and the Pontus II, so not much help there. But for $1,600 for a used Pontus II 12th, and an Iris DDC at $400; the Pontus II and Iris is a great combination.....not just for the money, but just a great combination. Yes I will replace the Pontus/Iris in the next year, but the replacement will be much much more expensive.....something like the T+A 200, Denafrips Terminator Plus, Berkeley Audio Alpha, Grimm MU2 streamer/DAC, or Lampizator. | ||
@vthokie83 how would you describe the bass of the Denafrips Pontus II DAC you have? Is it on the "smooth, diffuse" end or on the "solid, punchy, and textured" end of the spectrum? R2R DACs are generally well regarded for tonality, imaging, and soundstage, but without bass "punch". I wonder how close a multibit DAC like the Schiit Yggy can come to that while maybe having better bass. Thanks. | ||
incoming I'm with the crowd suggesting a newer (even used) DAC, too many updates in technology for me. Hard to say what your tastes would be, but here are some great recommendations for new. They can be found used for less as well, except the Harmony: Gustard R26 - $1,650, $1,100 used Denafrips Pontus II 15th (or 12th) - $1,950 , $1,400 used Schitt Yggy LIM - $2,300, $1,800 used Laiv Harmony - $2,850 new only For transparency, I own and love the Denafrips Pontus II DAC | ||
@sdberman I bought my son a Schiit Modi Multibit and was surprised at its robust, exuberant sound. It is more detailed than the old Cal Audio gear, and has more drive and punch. The Cal gear is a bit smoother, but less focus everywhere, including imaging. I feel like the Cal gear sounds a bit richer and smoother than it should, but the 12AX7 tube used should affect the sound somewhat.
I haven’t heard the newest versions of the Schiit DACS other than the Yggdrasil LIM, which is very organic and natural. It has far more resolution than the Cal gear. | ||
@jallan I've been out of high end stereo for years, but I just inherited my dad's system with exact same CAL components. The transport isn't working, so I've taken it into a shop for diagnostics and hopefully, it won't cost and arm & leg to repair. Curious to see how the Alpha has stood up to the test of time. Curious if you've ever compared the Alpha to a less expensive Schiit, like the Modi+ or Modi Multibit? | ||
Nothing wrong with many of the options outlined by others, but well, there's a LOT of DACs out here now compared to years ago. If you can believe this guy, the Geshelli Dayzee DAC, maxed out with the Sparkos or the Burson V7 Vivid op-amps gives a lot for the money, even runs with the Yggy just fine. Note, Geshelli sells options for better looking cases for a bit more $$$. | ||
@incoming Ah gotcha I didn't catch the link strangely the same Dac is being sold for $2150 but someone on USAM. | ||
@jond that seller is in NZ. Trademe is the NZ equivalent of Craigslist. | ||
What about older EMM LABS DAC with matching Transport. Optical Done Right! Only thing is it has no volume Control. What do you think of using Gold point passive volume Control in that situation? Ed Meitner was the genius behind that digital technology back in the day! Changes in power supplies etc. are where things get interesting! The DAC's themselves are not the key to modern improvement over the older stuff! I don't stream either! Too many possible problems! I like physical media etc. So instead of moving forward in newer stuff I went the other way ! I do have a Ayon tube CD player and also have used a Berkeley Alpha DAC with a Synchro Mesh Jitter reducing device with great results. So who knows! I like the build of the EMM LABS though over 15 years old still sounds great! Good buy too I thought for around $3k for both DAC and SACD Transport. | ||
There is a lot to take in here, particularly for someone as new to the game as I am, and that's without the ASR takes. @jji666 it is an excellent point to start with what i am trying to achieve. And this is where newbies with less trained ears can struggle. Even, if im honest, in being able to explain what we are hearing or what we wish to achieve sonically well enough to be guided by those with more experience. I started with better speakers which then introduced harshness at the top end. Current amp has tone controls and less treble helped. I was focused on a new amp, but a conversation with an enthusiast made it clear the DAC was the bottleneck. He was kind enough to lend me the Auralic and the difference was huge, even with the current amp. Luckily the same guy let me demo a few amps but that harshness was a problem on them all. @nagel this is where I got my first lesson in cables. Replacing speaker cables and RCA from DAC to amp solved that. Tone controls are now bypassed, but still comes close to a harshness on a few tracks, generally older or lower quality. Coming back to amps, the first was this Xindac V30 with replaced tube's (Gold Lion KT88 x 4, NOS telefunken ECC83 x 2, NOS Raytheon 6SN7 x2) https://www.trademe.co.nz/4897796592 and it was FUN! Tons of glorious bass, but (and this is where things get tricky to explain) ilthe sound was too much. So powerful. Almost makes you jump. Then came a Primare with streamer and DAC. Everything was sweet and balanced but the bass was lacking. It also had some troubling technical issues that put me off. A cheap Rotel was awful, demo lasted about 10 seconds and lastly a Musical Fidelity M5si that was awful in a different way. I could tell the soundstage and separation were streets ahead but vocals terrible. 29 palms was just unpleasant for the vocals. Demo lasted about 20 minutes. And that brings everything up to date. If I could get the Primare clarity and most of the bass of the Xindac i would be happy. And this thread came about as I was considering a different DAC to the Auralic i has been borrowing. In the end i bought it as it solved a major bottleneck and was OK price wise. I can upgrade when I get the opportunity to demo others on my room This isn't that simple in New Zealand (to clear that one up @boulder_bob :) as I will be largely reliant on local used options. Dealers just dont have the volume of sales here to be able to unbox and loan new items for demo. At least a major bottleneck has gone and cables are making the high notes tolerable. I do feel like tube needs to enter the equation somewhere. One audio store in Auckland used a Prima Luna hybrid amp that I am pretty sure was set up with the intention of pushing sales of Wharfedale Dentons. It made them sing, so could be a good option for my speakers. I just can't demo it and to pull the trigger would be a NZD11k gamble. This is, to borrow a phrase, the price you pay for living in paradise. That's probably enough rambling for now. I dare say my issues could be 90% resolved with that Xindac and different tube's, but the unit also has a hum (assume all tube amps do) and runs HOT. Would be an issue in summer here. Anyway, thanks for reading and for all the advice. I have plenty of options to explore when the Auralic needs an upgrade. | ||
Not long time ago, ASR publish their data on Topping LA90 integrated amplifier - the best they ever measured and cost only $800.00 U.S. dollars. Are you convinced that this is the best sounding audio gear ever made just because it measures better? If't was so easy to determine what gear sound's best (just by measurements) there is no need for hi-fi shows, or reviews and discussions on equipment. Not to mention, that this forum, you actively participate for no apparent reason, will be worthless. Do you mind telling us - what the hell are you doing on this forum? | ||
@dancub +1: Today's three-figure sub-$1K DAC's are competitive with the high-price stuff. No need to spend more. | ||
DACs are the one place where I cheap out. Digital tech is evolving so rapidly, that the cheap stuff today performs reasonable well against the better older stuff. Plus it seems to have attracted lots of entrepreneural spirit, i.e. inventive and disruptive. My amps, TTs even speakers are several generations old and performing hold their own. The added advantage is that I can regularly feed my GAS without breaking the bank. | ||
@tannoy56 : So you belong to the "golden ears" crowd. Opinions are the only things that matter to you in choosing gear. That doesn't sound smart! Opinions are fallible, measurements are not! | ||
For less than your budget, the Bel Canto e series is worth a listen. I still run my DAC3.5mk2 with VBL and Reflink (was sphile class A until replaced by Bel Canto Black EX also class A) but hope to sell soon to get a higher end chord. The DAC2.8 on agon is probably decent too but maybe not in the same level. Don't forget how important all the cables are, they can really change your sound. | ||
ASR is a data point, that’s all. It’s neither useless nor the last word in audio. However Amir does have a large group of followers who amplify his opinions and it can get really over the top. Anyway, I would say that opinions on DACs here won’t really help the OP make the right choice for his system. The OP really needs to try DACs with his own gear in his own room. It’s one thing if you’re choosing speakers - even at the dealer’s showroom, you are going to get some idea of tone, bass depth, what have you. The differences between DACs are more subtle and frankly require long term listening to discern...not just the difference but the preference. OP: first, determine your specific objectives. Warmer sound? Crisper bass? Just upgrade for doing so won’t max the value of your budget. Then, find some gear that has a return policy - many do. Listen to each for a week or more. What sounds awesome for 5 minutes can be irksome 60 minutes later... Oh, also, I think some older DACs can sound wonderful. Much of the quality of the DAC is in the analog part of the implementation. Newer DACs are good for added function like DSD, higher bitrates and sampling rates, more filters and such. I have a 2012 W4S DAC that still sounds pretty, albeit my go-to DACs are somewhat newer. It’s a journey not a destination. Good luck and have fun! | ||
I have moved this into a second system, but I still like my MHDT Labs Orchid. I had an Auralic Vega. The Orchid is more "analog" sounding. A little on the warm side. It doesn’t do DSD and isn’t Roon ready if any of those things matter. While we are giving shout outs to Herron gear, I have his latest monoblocks, preamp, and phono stage.
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I have a very old Mark Levinson before it was Mark Levinson which is called proceed. I’ve read that the dacs Are and can be very good on ML equipment and I can affirm that is true. I have a proceed AVP and avp 2 both of which have built in Dacs. The dac On the Levenson is excellent. I also have a modern dac the cyan 2 from holo. They are comparable. The ML has more space and depth and air, but is a little bit brighter and sharper than the cyan. I like them both they are different. I am hard-pressed to say that one is better than the other. So this may be the exception. If you grab a component that was once upon a time very high end, you may get a Pleasant surprise. | ||
I would add RME ADI2 to the list. I had this and the Chord Quest. They are both great for the price but quite different. Ended up feeding the RME right into my power amp. After much switching, it just sounded better - fuller bass, plenty of detail (though Chord beats it there) etc etc. I think you have to listen for yourself. The RME has a graphic equalizer and volume control, and a good clock if you are using USB. | ||
Hey, don’t you get tired of people trying to sell you on smoke and mirrors?? No matter what people are telling you, newer DAC’s doesn’t mean better DAC’s or better sound. This is completely delusional and definitely lacks common sense. My advice to you is you yourself test old and new at the price range you’re looking for and make a logical choice for yourself. I know you hope to find the answers here from individuals but honestly too many people use this site to troll and bash others so do yourself a favor and test with your ears within your system. With regards to whatever media you will be using as a playback weather it is CD’s or streaming, at least you know the quality and development of CD’s hasn’t changed in a long time and the technology has been around since the 80’s. Streaming has and will continue to evolve but we’re talking about catching up with CD sound quality. Makes sense?? | ||
@cfarrow - great to see somebody else with Herron Audio gear; I've got that same line stage preamp and phono preamp as you.... | ||
Hello, okay, thanks and btw I'm not looking for dacs right now and hopefully not again for the near future. Had to check myself to see if I was part of this thread. Maybe this note was intended for someone else or different thread? Best of luck to everyone on the dac hunting in any case. | ||
@decooney i would recommend the Gustard R26. I think it's a really good dac for the money. | ||
Some of the best DAC’s I’ve heard are based on older D/A chips and designs overall. If the design and implementation is solid and it leads to a natural, organic and "analogue" sound (my preference), it’s all that really matters. Carriers of that type of sound are Weiss DAC’s (like the DAC1, which is sonically very much akin to the one I use myself (a small Danish brand not known to many)). The Auralic DAC’s I’ve heard sit in a rather different sonic realm, but the important thing is: listen to some DAC items, don’t let the age of the D/A chip/design dictate your choice, and just go with the sound you prefer. | ||
Many thanks for the recommendations, and I always enjoy the discussions within this community. Plenty of research ahead, which suits me just fine. Also plenty of envy for the options and service available in the US. For those of us outside it is a bit more of a pot luck situation. The Auralic is on loan from an enthusiast who sells new and second hand equipment as a side business. Haven't come across a retailer who provides trials of new kit, but also haven't specifically asked. Time to do that too. Appreciate the direction folks. | ||
Yes; the best option is to hear a dac in your room, especially if it is acoustically less than optimal. There are quite a few dealers who offer trial periods and return policies (without restocking fees). FYI, you will have to pay shipping both ways if you return. PM me and I will provide a list. Among these is TMR, who sell used as well as new.
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There is a brand new version of the Yggdrasil now, the Yggy+. I had the original Yggy and loved it. Every time I put a better power cord on it, the improvement came through clearly. But you should only buy a DAC that you can audition in your own system and trust your ears (after an adequate break in time.) You can do that with the Yggy+.
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ASR reviews are useless. I have a audiophile friend in town that swears by it, as one of the posters above stated they mostly review lower priced gear which there is absolutely nothing wrong other than stating its state of the art due to measurements which have no bearing on the sound quality that they produce. The whole system has an impact on what you get, I have a Benchmark Dac 2 HGC in my bedroom for headphones and when I put it in my main system I definitely feel the let down in sound quality compared to my Wells Audio Cipher Dac(tube). I have owned many good dacs over the years and have always went back to a tube based DAC. Ones to look for in your budget are the Wavelength DACS with the N2 board & ANK tube dacs factory built. I would have recommended my Wells Dac but I am respecting your budget of $2k. My system is: Herron 360 Reference ESP preamp Herron VTPH-2a Phono Preamp Sota Nova Turntable With Jelco 850 tonearm w/Haniwa HCTR-01 cartridge Wells Audio Cipher Dac level 1 w/Bybee AC purifier's installed 432Evo Aeon Mkiii streamer Miyajima OTL 2010 amplifiers(mono bloc) hORNS Mummy speakers Good Luck with your search. | ||
I have had about 10 DACs in the house over the last 5 years, from $700 to $15 000. Most of them sounded good. I do not think DAC tech has changed much in the last 5 years. Once jitter was figured out the difference between DACs came down to tastes, warm, neutral, bright, chip, no chip. etc. The best DAC I have owned by far was the latest Schitt Yggi+ OG. They do not make this one anymore since a piece of electronics they used is no longer available. So, I am not sure if the AG version of the Yggi+ can be upgraded to the last iteration that I have. My second-best DAC is the Schitt Yggi+ LIM. That DAC is not as detailed as the OG but it has a place in my office system, and I love it there. Only issue I have is whether to covert the LIM to the replacement for the OG. The replacement is called More is Better and is supposedly closer to the sound of my OG and not the LIM. In my 2 systems I can tell the differences between the OG and the LIM. Especially my best system. I also use fibre optic to stream. | ||
@cleeds ++ |
