Reasonable and not too opinionated. 😂
Audiophiles on Audiogon.
During my time here, I have found some of you to be too opinionated - like your life depends upon what you think about audio gear. Holding on to one’s beliefs a bit too tightly is bad for the soul.
I was reading some content on the Ken Rockwell website, and then found an article entitled: "What is an audiophile?"
in the article, Ken says: Audiophiles are non-technical, non-musical kooks who imagine the darnedestly stupid things about audio equipment. Audiophiles are fun to watch; they’re just as confused at how audio equipment or music really works as primitive men like cargo cults are about airplanes.
Given my time on this forum and a few others, I have found his statements to be true. I mean, if you have an amplifier that costs say, $10,000, and you buy cables for $20,000, is that really going to improve the sound? (make the stereo image more accurate)
Or on the otherside, if you buy an amplifier for $1000 and then go buy the top of the line audioquest cables costing tens of thousands of dollars, then would the sound improve accordingly? After reading some of their literature, I cannot be sure they have an understanding of how electricrity works, much less the intricate details involving high-end audio systems.
And then we have power conditioning to consider. I have done extensive research online and it turns out that if your gear is really "high-end" it should already have a device inside that filters the incoming AC. Therefore, do you really need a power conditioner?
I learned about PS Audio products being spec-ed much higher than their measured performance. This is also true of the audio "power plants" that cost thousands of dollars. No really, tons of money to "regenerate" power with little to no sonic benefits.
Would love to hear what you guys think about these findings.
Oh, and high-end DACs?
This thing will outperform all your fancy gear.
121 responses Add your response
The definition you cite claims that audiophiles (implying all, as this is a definition) are:
Then you say that "I have found his statements to be true." Then you post this on a forum thread. Is that really what you want to say to actual people -- you know, people with thoughts, feelings, etc.? What kind of person does that? Why don't you pick a fight with someone in person, so you have to face real consequences and can't hide behind a keyboard?
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I really don't think you want our opinions and, frankly, I'm not much interested in yours. Most of us here are audiophiles and if you think we're kooks, it may be that you don't belong here. | ||||||||
One of the main difference between audiophiles an hi fi guys is that audiophiles actually listen to the equipment and make a decision based on what they hear, whereas hi fi guys research it on line and subscribe to a theory that fits his preconceived notions. Seems like audiophiles have more fun. | ||||||||
@hilde45 I cannot add much to your post but maybe a guess why he wants to fight...but not really! You ask What kind of person does that? wasn't it Freud who implied poor potty training
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He's a guy who reviews stuff like optics and audio, but draws the line at his own mind and how it (his mind) works. You know, opinionated but outside of reason, in some cases, like we all are. We all have limits, recognizing that can be key. Eg, we know the tik-tac videos are real but most here work hard at not recognizing what any of that means [la-la-la! I can't hear you!]. it means a lot. things of that nature [the tik-tac is the tiniest, most mundane piece of that world] are are mentally and world breaking, mind shattering for some. So we erase it from our minds continually. No choice unless we want to change, and suffer going though the involved changes. I've used the Rockwell website and found it to be useful, but only for the reviews of optics, as my interest in optics does not get 'personal'. | ||||||||
I cannot add anything to this good analysis... Dividing people with general non sensical claim associated to ALL of them is beyond stupid... But i think you are not stupid only ignorant enough to put all people under the same label and describe them this way :
You have yourself for sure peirced the veil.... 😁😊 | ||||||||
Audio science review is for the measurement crowd. I am in the camp of what I can hear. As far as tweaks, I will consider things with an open mind and if I hear a sonic change I like I might buy that gear. I would hazard a guess that plenty of hi-fi equipment purchasers use reviews not their ears to make their choice. I use reviews as a tool to find things that might interest me. I would never buy a piece of gear based solely on some audio reviews. I must hear that gear first. | ||||||||
Ummm, maybe we just enjoy chatting about audio systems the way "car-guys" stand around at car club meetings staring at each other's engines every weekend. I may not enjoy that, but I wouldn't call them "kooks". They're enjoying themselves. However, if we are all "too-opinionated kooks" who discuss "the darnedest stupid things" in your opinion, then why are you here chatting with us? | ||||||||
How can you tell unless you listen to them? Forget what things cost, just plug them in and listen, it's not rocket surgery. If these items are out of your price range, why even bother? | ||||||||
@russ69 , then similarly, how can you tell that a $20,000 cable improves the sound over a $100 cable, unless you listened to both, without the knowledge of which one you were listening to at any point in time. I work on developing technology for batteries. Myself and my competitors have access to almost any equipment we want due to how big the $ prize is. Anytime we have a positive improvement, no matter the quality of our equipment or how sure we are we did not make a mistake, we still repeat the experiment several times, preferably with independent teams, just to be sure. It's just a hobby, but would it not be prudent to assume we could be mistaken before we assume with limited information we are absolutely correct? | ||||||||
I’m about as "kooky" as they come, proud of it! Call me what you may, but it’s whatever floats your boat and makes you happy. I will say that I don’t buy things that cost outrageous amounts of money, as for one, I do not have that kind of money, secondly, I like to find the underdogs so to speak, that perform well above their price point. However, I will also say that I’m not shopping at the local best buy for my stuff. I feel what I do own is pretty respectable equipment that was not exactly cheap to maybe a more reasonable or frugal person. Tannoy, Sugden, Naim, Cyrus, Ear, Avid, Music Hall, Graham Slee, AKG, Shure, Sennheiser, Musical Fidelity, Wharfedale, Martin Logan, Aiwa, Marantz, Cambridge Audio, Pro-Ject, Chord, Atlas, Audioquest, Ecosse, HifiMan, Sony, Ortofon, Goldring, Hana, Technics, Tavish Design, Rothwell, Border Patrol, Stein, Ringmat, Jensen, Atacama, Butcherblock Acoustics, Isanoe, Vibrapod, Blutac, Furman, Fostex, Beyerdynamics, Audio Technica, Denon (103), Record Doctor, Disc Washer, Vinyl Revival ( I'm sure I'm forgetting some) are just some of the brands I’m using currently. It is my one and only hobby and it makes me content. You would hate to see what I’ve paid for some of the records I own 😳 lol.... | ||||||||
You will not like the rest of the article Mahgister though perhaps there is some truth. He did get off the rails a bit and made a comparison that I found rather offensive and I will not repeat here as it showed rather poor judgment on his part.
@jackhifiguy , it is good form to provide a link to material you reference:
https://www.kenrockwell.com/audio/audiophile.htm
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Rockwell depict an image in white and black... He must sells to add views on his site... He must be provocative and stay a bit provocative...
i was an audiophile myself till few months ago... Why? Because i dreamed to own a system with a minimal sound quality .. But with no MONEY... I choose a basic relatively good one and investigated slowly how to implement an optimal working for this system... I will not repeat here what i did... The main part was simple experiments in acoustic among other simple experiments ... Suffice to say that i am very happy now ...The audiophile normal stage is behind me and music here forever with a minamal satisfying quality superior in my room to my 8 headphones..... Then there exist an audiophile stage in any musical life, the question is how to pass this necessary stage and integrate his lessons with success... Audiophilia correspond to a STAGE in life and is not only a STATE of being it is not only an obsessive hobby, it can and must be a learning experience...... Some buy and plug because they have the money to do it and they upgrade... Some buy and plug and forget it because they dont have the time, the room or the patience to do what must be done to exit the obsession for good sound and pass through it with REAL acoustic learning... All people want a good sound... Then characterizing all audiophiles to be only of one species : deluded one is only that a provocation...it is not a quality attached to some consumers zombies only, it is a normal stage of variable time lenght in the life of someone listening music... Some provocation are creative , i take what you speak about this way... Other provocations are only negative stirring of the pot with closed mind indiscriminate attack to sell something here or in another forums ... I prefered listening basic experiments in acoustic instead of focusing on the GEAR brand name and design , this was an opening of the eyes... The best design are too costly for me anyway but it is easy to afford nowadays relatively good one at relatively low price... Minimal mechanical control of vibrations and some control to decrease the noise floor of the house, acoustic treatment and control, all that is enough to reach a MINIMAL treshold of satisfaction... This treshold exist and is easy to be evaluated by many acoustical criteria... It is a relative treshold but it exist and this is all and the only message i can communicate in this site... If someone ignorant and not crafty like me can do it anyone can... 😁😊 But it takes times and basic elementary studies for acoustic experiments...we must dare to experiment for sure...It takes time, i could do it because i am retired...And the other bad news it take me a dedicated room... But it is possible to do some thing in a living room for sure... Then all "audiophiles" are not gear fetichist....Some pass the stage and the test... Listening must be LEARNED , nevermind if you are an audiophile, an acoustician or a musician or an engineer... Being audiophile is not a hobby FOR LIFE , it was one limited in time for me, it is indeed a normal stage in the life of any musical lover...Using this label to insult people is only most of the times a way to demonstrate our own acoustic ignorance...This is my experience...
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At the end of the day I fall back on Hans Beekhuyzen's closing remark on all his YouTube reviews, "And whatever you do, enjoy the music". If you have a small circle of audiophiles (by which I mean folks who love music, love to actively listen, enjoy finding equipment that suits their room, budget, and preferences) with whom you can share tunes, ideas, and have a love for the hobby (or whatever you call it), then ignore the areas that are way beyond your budget, interest, or in my case, ears. I've learned a lot from friends and a few YouTube folks that aren't shilling and want to help. Some drive Fords, Chevys, Toyotas, Mercedes, Lincolns, Audis, and Bentleys. So find whatever you can afford and enjoy! And yes, there are many "interesting" folks in these forums. Don't let them bring you down! | ||||||||
Price has nothing to do with performance, sound quality, build quality, design, etc. I have mentioned this before, we have a listening room in Northern New Jersey. Please feel free to bring your $720 DAC over to see if you can hear a difference, or anything else you feel you would like to see if you can hear any differences. Happy Listening. | ||||||||
Blind testing is a failed concept. Long term evaluation is the gold standard in equipment review. Lots of hours, lots of different music, many attempts at optimization. Any short-term test is prone to error vs a complete and full evaluation. | ||||||||
I used to read Ken Rockwell's reviews on camera bodies and lenses, I think he did a pretty good job there. (I have not read his site in many years though, so don't know what he's up to nowdays.) However, picturing audiophiles as people who buy 20K$ cables for 1K$ amplifiers is the equivalent of picturing photographers as kooks buying multi K$ optics for disposable cameras. Need not say more on that matter and the distorted optics implied.... Despite the fun caricatures often painted of audiophiles one thing is true. Every audiophile (I know of) is emotionally heavily attached to his stereo equipment, or in other words, to the way his stereo equipment portrays sound and music. As a result they can be (and are) often quite abrasive and intolerant of folks who prefer sound portrayed through different means. This more often than not ends up in verbal abuse on forums. I'd say regardless of how how audiophiles express themselves, every audiophile feels PASSIONATELY about sound and music. Those with more experience are able to express themselves as adults, being respecful of their fellow human beings, and while others care more about their own love of gear than about experiencing the rest of the world. Let's suck it up. It's life. This happens everywhere, is not limited to audiophiles. Just look at the camera / optics world. That world also has their hardcore fans, and we can mock them or not. I decide not to mock, and allow them to be passionate about what matters to them. One aspect or passion or pursuit might be meaningless to you, yet it means a lot to another human being..... this is the cornerstone of all human experience, and the driving force behind art, diversity, and discovery.
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Audiophile success must be based on acoustic learning not on the gear... if someone know what he is doing , he can create great sound experience with ANY relatively good gear at ANY price level in ANY room... Focus on exlusive gear listening, or focus on gear evaluation only by some set of measures for comparison , can be legitimate concern and they are yes, but are meaningless without personal control on some acoustical correlative aspect of the experience... Good sound dont cost big money necessarily , but it cost time and thinking yes... Ken Rockwell sells himself and want click baits not knowledge in audio first and last...Provocative tone is a sign of ignorance or/and sometimes great litterature nothing else.....
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Honestly, I can see why people post challenges to Audiogoners. First, non-technical, many posts are about promoting products without providing technical specs and measurements. If a cable is capable of making significant sonic improvements, it got to be measurable. ASR fills some of those gaps but, rather being praised for what he has done for the community, Audiogoners diss/discredit him and insist measurements are nonsense and only their ears can be trusted. These anti-scientific arguments will only earn nothing but heavy critics. Of course, if you got disposable money, spend it without hesitation and it is absolutely none of our business. But making defensive arguments against science is just not beneficial to the community. | ||||||||
Audio science is COMPLEX...And science is not reducible to technological play and tools... Measures of piece of gear with tools dont tell all the story... correlation with acoustic experiments are necessary... Audio science need tools and educated ears.... Separating ears and tools is not very wise....You cannot study ears without measures and you cannot study gear without ears.... I am flabbergasted to be in the obligation of saying this common place fact to gear brandname subjective fetichist and to obsessive objective measuring fetichist ... Gear focussing obsession is less important than acoustic and psycho-acoustic science...
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It is a fact that some aspect of the gear quality can be measured but not all...Why? Because any piece of gear must be listened to in specific acoustic condition to be judged... But rejecting measures is irrational, and using only measures is stupid.... It seems people are glued in binary thinking...
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Exactly and you are right... But this means listening music and being sensible to the acoustic condition and acoustic environment... All musician are sensible to the way a chosen instrument will sound in specific acoustic condition...
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@jackhifiguy Your profile says that you have been a member here since March 2, 2022. That is a little over 1 1/2 months. You have also participated here very little:
jackhifiguy
I would suggested that you haven’t been here long enough to know what’s up or down or anything about anyone here. You come out firing and make these accusations when you are a rank newbie here. I suggest you take your hands off the keyboard for a while and just read. Although applied to this computer forum, my father once told me good advice, which I feel is applicable here: “Better to be thought a fool, than to open one’s mouth and remove all doubt.” | ||||||||
I have another hobby in addition to audio, and am a member of another forum on which I participate in discourse regarding that hobby. One thing I appreciate about that forum is that new members who start trollish threads or engage in disruptive, toxic behavior are summarily banned. I don’t actually consider myself to be an audiophile. I do however, consider the op to be an indecorous churl. Good day, gents. | ||||||||
From what I see hear ,is this Rockwell person to be totally Ignorant of the Sonic bliss that music brinks to many 1,000s of Audiophiles world wide, with Audiophiles many times it takes some trial and error to get the acoustics and system synergies right to Taylor to their exact personal audio taste ,that is half the quest ,to get as close to the live musical event as possible. to imply someone is going to spend 3x more for their cables then equipment is just plain mindless. Most Audiophiles delegate a specific amount say 25% on speakers ,20% on cables the rest on a front end ,and electronics, depending too on budget. These that scoff at Audiophiles need to get a life , It is like those who think car collectors is a waste of time when saying it’s nothing more then just transportation to get from point A to B. Just ignore these mindless rants!! | ||||||||
This is his intro @audioman58 , you may be off bass with your sonic bliss comment.
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