Audiophiles on Audiogon.

My take after decades of swapping out gear frequently is that you can get a variety of differences but they are not necessarily improvements...

So true....

 For me the only ABSOLUTE improvements, when we own a relatively good basic audio system already  will come from acoustic/psycho-acoustic improvement in the room...

Upgrade is often a mirror of our acoustic ignorance ...And we call the change and the difference our "taste" and an improvement  .... It is not always the case at all...

There is no "taste" in acoustic, only our particular ears structure and history...Acoustic science is related to many concepts which can de defined objectively and experimented with in a subjective manner... In this experimental correlation between objective and subjective factors in a small room, It is less "taste" that exist, but more a tuning optimization for a specific pair of ears and system and by them...

All of us had their own experience and various knowledge...

For example i understand very well what poetry is in relation to linguistic and prose ....

Then i can admit easily if i am wrong in this matter why? Because i know it so well that i can understand the value of an opinion here easily....

In acoustic it is not so easy for me why?

Because here i dont have all the mathematical , the physical and neurophysiological knowledge at hand ... I have only my listenings experiments for 2 years and some basic understanding, then i can spot less easily my limitations about some technical point...

But i learned enough to be able to tune my room and the change was ASTOUNDING... It is why i insist about acoustic over gear upgrades...

Am i opinionated here?

No i know what i lived through...

The more we know about something or about a specialized field the easiest it is to spot our ignorance points and suspect and guess about our blind spot in this field ....

In the opposite way opinionated person are sometimes specialized mind and expert who know a lot about some aspects but who overestimated the narrow band of their expertise...For a hammer user all is nail...

We all die ignorant but we may die the heart and brain open...

For me the most interesting aspect of studying is RELATION between fields...

Not so much the field in itself ... I am more a mystic or poet than a scientist...But my field of interests are poetry, mathematic, music and linguistic and other i will not mention because i hate too much controversies..

Poet i am then, but i have no fear of equations... 😁😊

I am fascinated by acoustic because there is a poetry in sound called music and there is mathematic... These two extremes poetry and mathematic fascinate me...

The great geometer Alain Connes just exposed for the last years the deep link between primes numbers distribution, Hilbert Space non commutative operators, physics and music...

Remember that music modulo Pythagoean school is one of the main root of European science...

And music is probably at the origin of the language in evolution , and in language the poetic mode complement the prosaic mode so well that at the end i am very interested by exploring the relation between the right part of the brain and the left complementary part, linked to intuition and analysis, details focus or background focus attention, poetical and prosaic mode etc...

If you think that poetry and mathematic are world apart think twice they are Janus brothers...And Music is their mother...

 

 

 

Nobody here is opinionated, we just all know we’re right

 

 

I concur with your observation for sure...

But the relation between recording an acoustic lived performance and "conveying" all the trade off choices of the recording engineer to a speakers/rooms/ears is more a TRANSLATION for me than a reproduction...I think you are ok with that...

Then what you call "delusion" about the obsessive  desire to recreate the original performance is right ...it is a delusion to some degree...

Then we are on the same page here...

 

But a remark about your first sentence , i apologize to say this to you, apply also to you...

Mahgister, by the simple act of posting what you did, which could be wrong, you are, are you not, pretending to be right?

i dont pretend to be ABSOLUTELY right on everything, i only discuss politely...

i respect your expertise...But when we express an opinion it is only that, here an opinion...

Must i stay silent and never answer or comment your post?

i can concur with your opinion like here not always dissent...

I like to learn and discuss...

 

 

«He never said "yes" to a possible bride because he could be wrong»-Groucho Marx 🤓

 

Even if someone is really a troll , the best politic is ignoring him or answering him politely with logical arguments why?

Because even is someone is a troll, labelling him  a troll is also child play most of the times...

Labelling people "troll" is child play...

The OP is a troll.

The one similarity to hifi audio is that hifi has also reached a technical plateau. The response to that is much different.

It is also because acoustic integrate optic channels in the brain not the reverse...Acoustic channels in the brain are older , more useful in the sea with smell than vision...

And measured performances are more simple to measure and evaluate in human optic perception and production than in sound/music perception...

 

And learning acoustic is more complex than learning photography ...Photography like painting is more related and more tributary to chemicals and simple tools than to a complex language linked to complex tools and to the body control itself...

And it is true that some imagine erroneously they can assess quality of audio system by specs sheets and in any uncontrolled room... we can effectively evaluate a camera WITHOUT taking photos...But we cannot evaluate a sound system or an instrument without tuning them and listening them...Listening is an art in itself that must be learned ...

 

 

Also when we see something we are related to his external appearence, when we hear a resonant object source we enter into his intimate qualities , we are able to detect it at distance and without seeing it...

It is probably the reason why some of the first human population in dense forest for example begin to develop more intensely the use of whistling and singing to keep beast at a distance and keep an ongoing communication between them by voices or talking drums...Language come from music for me...And sound like fire is a powerful weapon...With sound you can organize large hunt of large animals by large synbchronized groups...

Language at his origin is a gesture of ALL THE BODY not only from the throat...Language is related to music and come from it... When language detach more from music he localize itself more around the throat, and became more a linguistic tool than a musical body gesture...

I dont pretend to be right... For sure....But this is a main research trend...

I concur with that...

Labelling people "troll" is child play...

If you turn a troll post into intelligent discussion they lose. If you just get angry, they win.

Exactly and you are right...

But this means listening music and being sensible to the acoustic condition and acoustic environment...

All musician are sensible to the way a chosen instrument will sound in specific acoustic condition...

hi fi guys listen to the music not to measurements or equipment like your definition of audiophiles, which by the way I don’t agree with.

 

It is a fact that some aspect of the gear quality can be measured but not all...Why?

Because any piece of gear must be listened to in specific acoustic condition to be judged...

But rejecting measures is irrational, and using only measures is stupid....

It seems people are glued in binary thinking...

Show me a device that measures sound quality and I will certainly get one. Until that time I will use my ears.

 

Audio science is COMPLEX...And science is not reducible to technological play and tools...

Measures of piece of gear with tools dont tell all the story...

correlation with acoustic experiments are necessary...

Audio science need tools and educated ears....

Separating ears and tools is not very wise....You cannot study ears without measures and you cannot study gear without ears....

I am flabbergasted to be in the obligation of saying this common place fact to gear brandname subjective fetichist and to obsessive objective  measuring fetichist ...

Gear focussing obsession is less important than acoustic and psycho-acoustic science...

 

 

Audiophile success must be based on acoustic learning not on the gear...

if someone know what he is doing , he can create great sound experience with ANY relatively good gear at ANY price level in ANY room...

Focus on exlusive gear listening, or focus on gear evaluation only by some set of measures for comparison , can be legitimate concern and they are yes, but are meaningless without personal control on some acoustical correlative aspect of the experience...

Good sound dont cost big money necessarily , but it cost time and thinking  yes...

Ken Rockwell sells himself and want click baits not knowledge in audio first and last...Provocative tone is a sign of ignorance or/and sometimes great litterature nothing else.....

 

Rockwell depict an image in white and black...

He must sells to add views on his site...

He must be provocative and stay a bit provocative...

 

i was an audiophile myself till few months ago...

Why?

Because i dreamed to own a system with a minimal sound quality ..

But with no MONEY...

I choose a basic relatively good one and investigated slowly how to implement an optimal working for this system... I will not repeat here what i did...

The main part was simple experiments in acoustic among other simple experiments ...

Suffice to say that i am very happy now ...The audiophile normal stage is behind me and music here forever with a minamal satisfying quality superior in my room to my 8 headphones.....

Then there exist an audiophile stage in any musical life, the question is how to pass this necessary stage and integrate his lessons with success... Audiophilia correspond to a STAGE in life and is not only a STATE of being it is not only an obsessive hobby, it can and must be a learning experience......

Some buy and plug because they have the money to do it and they upgrade... Some buy and plug and forget it because they dont have the time, the room or the patience to do what must be done to exit the obsession for good sound and pass through it with REAL acoustic learning...

All people want a good sound...

Then characterizing all audiophiles to be only of one species : deluded one is only that a provocation...it is not a quality attached to some consumers zombies only, it is a normal stage of variable time lenght in the life of someone listening music...

Some provocation are creative , i take what you speak about this way...

Other provocations are only negative stirring of the pot with closed mind indiscriminate attack to sell something here or in another forums ...

I prefered listening basic experiments in acoustic instead of focusing on the GEAR brand name and design , this was an opening of the eyes... The best design are too costly for me anyway but it is easy to afford nowadays relatively good one at relatively low price...

Minimal mechanical control of vibrations and some control to decrease the noise floor of the house, acoustic treatment and control, all that is enough to reach a MINIMAL treshold of satisfaction...

This treshold exist and is easy to be evaluated by many acoustical criteria...

It is a relative treshold but it exist and this is all and the only message i can communicate in this site...

If someone ignorant and not crafty like me can do it anyone can... 😁😊

But it takes times and basic elementary studies for acoustic experiments...we must dare to experiment for sure...It takes time, i could do it because i am retired...And the other bad news it take me a dedicated room... But it is possible to do some thing in a living room for sure...

Then all "audiophiles" are not gear fetichist....Some pass the stage and the test...

Listening must be LEARNED , nevermind if you are an audiophile, an acoustician or a musician or an engineer...

Being audiophile is not a hobby FOR LIFE , it was one limited in time for me, it is indeed a normal stage in the life of any musical lover...Using this label to insult people is only most of the times a way to demonstrate our own acoustic ignorance...This is my experience...

 

You will not like the rest of the article Mahgister though perhaps there is some truth. He did get off the rails a bit and made a comparison that I found rather offensive and I will not repeat here as it showed rather poor judgment on his part.

An audiophile will waste days comparing the sound of power cords or different kinds of solder, but won’t even notice that his speakers are out-of-phase. An audiophile never enjoys music; he only listens to the sound of audio equipment.

The definition you cite claims that audiophiles (implying all, as this is a definition) are:

• non-technical
• non-musical
• confused
• kooks
• who imagine the darnedestly stupid things about audio equipment

Then you say that "I have found his statements to be true."

Then you post this on a forum thread.

Is that really what you want to say to actual people -- you know, people with thoughts, feelings, etc.?

What kind of person does that?

Why don’t you pick a fight with someone in person, so you have to face real consequences and can’t hide behind a keyboard?

I cannot add anything to this good analysis...

Dividing people with general non sensical claim associated to ALL of them is beyond stupid...

But i think you are not stupid only ignorant enough to put all people under the same label and describe them this way :

they’re just as confused at how audio equipment or music really works as primitive men like cargo cults are about airplanes.

 

You have yourself for sure peirced the veil.... 😁😊