JackHifiguy who cares what the measurements are the most important thing is how it sounds you could have the best measurements and still sound like crap.
Audiophiles on Audiogon.
During my time here, I have found some of you to be too opinionated - like your life depends upon what you think about audio gear. Holding on to one’s beliefs a bit too tightly is bad for the soul.
I was reading some content on the Ken Rockwell website, and then found an article entitled: "What is an audiophile?"
in the article, Ken says: Audiophiles are non-technical, non-musical kooks who imagine the darnedestly stupid things about audio equipment. Audiophiles are fun to watch; they’re just as confused at how audio equipment or music really works as primitive men like cargo cults are about airplanes.
Given my time on this forum and a few others, I have found his statements to be true. I mean, if you have an amplifier that costs say, $10,000, and you buy cables for $20,000, is that really going to improve the sound? (make the stereo image more accurate)
Or on the otherside, if you buy an amplifier for $1000 and then go buy the top of the line audioquest cables costing tens of thousands of dollars, then would the sound improve accordingly? After reading some of their literature, I cannot be sure they have an understanding of how electricrity works, much less the intricate details involving high-end audio systems.
And then we have power conditioning to consider. I have done extensive research online and it turns out that if your gear is really "high-end" it should already have a device inside that filters the incoming AC. Therefore, do you really need a power conditioner?
I learned about PS Audio products being spec-ed much higher than their measured performance. This is also true of the audio "power plants" that cost thousands of dollars. No really, tons of money to "regenerate" power with little to no sonic benefits.
Would love to hear what you guys think about these findings.
Oh, and high-end DACs?
This thing will outperform all your fancy gear.
121 responses Add your response
@roxy54 , my inability to spell often has funny unintended consequences. |
More truth than not in Ken’s article. Hit home more than a little….despite the OP’s mishandling of it’s introduction to these hallowed forums. I have to admit that I am a bit melancholic upon reflection of my audio odyssey. More often than not, I believe many of us loose site of what is, or at least should be, at the core of our obsession…the music! |
| Post removed |
It’s interesting how photography reviewers are diversifying into audio. I think this is partly because photography has been through an explosion in technology in the past fifteen years, but the pace of innovation has very significantly slackened off. In addition, the industry has consolidated so, in the aggregate, there is a lot less product to review. Obviously, there’s much more diversity in the audio world. Ken Rockwell’s site has become much more dominated by advertorial in recent years. |
The leader of my country says I am "a member of the Fringes of Society" and that I "hold unacceptable views". @jackhifiguy has re-enforced that position... It must be True... Jack is Justin Trudeau! Who knew? |
@aewarren
Yes, none of the device in the market is available to provide a comprehensive assessment for SQ. This is a far-cry goal that I wish can be achieved some day. I was specifically referring to "cable" if you read my post carefully. Here is one example. In the end of post, he said
I have not come across any cable manufacturer provides tech. measurements for their products so far even upon request. In the listening test section, he also mentioned:
|
Interesting to compare. Camera performance can be objectively measured and everyone seems to a accept the results. Camera sensors have reached an asymptote in performance with only small gains generation to generation now. In photography everyone wants the best technical performance and then adjusts the final result to taste in software.
The one similarity to hifi audio is that hifi has also reached a technical plateau. The response to that is much different. |
It is also because acoustic integrate optic channels in the brain not the reverse...Acoustic channels in the brain are older , more useful in the sea with smell than vision... And measured performances are more simple to measure and evaluate in human optic perception and production than in sound/music perception...
And learning acoustic is more complex than learning photography ...Photography like painting is more related and more tributary to chemicals and simple tools than to a complex language linked to complex tools and to the body control itself... And it is true that some imagine erroneously they can assess quality of audio system by specs sheets and in any uncontrolled room... we can effectively evaluate a camera WITHOUT taking photos...But we cannot evaluate a sound system or an instrument without tuning them and listening them...Listening is an art in itself that must be learned ...
Also when we see something we are related to his external appearence, when we hear a resonant object source we enter into his intimate qualities , we are able to detect it at distance and without seeing it... It is probably the reason why some of the first human population in dense forest for example begin to develop more intensely the use of whistling and singing to keep beast at a distance and keep an ongoing communication between them by voices or talking drums...Language come from music for me...And sound like fire is a powerful weapon...With sound you can organize large hunt of large animals by large synbchronized groups... Language at his origin is a gesture of ALL THE BODY not only from the throat...Language is related to music and come from it... When language detach more from music he localize itself more around the throat, and became more a linguistic tool than a musical body gesture... I dont pretend to be right... For sure....But this is a main research trend... |
Mahgister, by the simple act of posting what you did, which could be wrong, you are, are you not, pretending to be right? I agree in principle there is a better correlation to what can be readily seen in a photography image and how a person will perceive it, versus what happens with sound hitting our ears. Most of our discussion is not about sound though, it is about electricity. There is far less room for interpretation even if that will become a sound. I think the bigger difference is in the perception of those participating in each hobby. We have no illusions in photography that a 2 dimensional photograph can ever accurately portray the full 3 dimensional experience of stereoscopic imagery. We not only readily accept deviations from accuracy, we encourage it. We want our reds redder, our blues bluer, we often want the background blurred to highlight the foreground, and we may even reduce the resolution on facial skin to hide blemishes. What’s more, we can readily compare the result side by side. In audio we have deluded ourselves that we are trying to recreate an original performance, when that is both impossible, but probably in most cases undesirable. We want the feel of a live performance, but all the benefits that exist because it was not recorded as a live performance would be experienced. |
I concur with your observation for sure... But the relation between recording an acoustic lived performance and "conveying" all the trade off choices of the recording engineer to a speakers/rooms/ears is more a TRANSLATION for me than a reproduction...I think you are ok with that... Then what you call "delusion" about the obsessive desire to recreate the original performance is right ...it is a delusion to some degree... Then we are on the same page here...
But a remark about your first sentence , i apologize to say this to you, apply also to you...
i dont pretend to be ABSOLUTELY right on everything, i only discuss politely... i respect your expertise...But when we express an opinion it is only that, here an opinion... Must i stay silent and never answer or comment your post? i can concur with your opinion like here not always dissent... I like to learn and discuss...
«He never said "yes" to a possible bride because he could be wrong»-Groucho Marx 🤓
|
| Post removed |
All of us had their own experience and various knowledge... For example i understand very well what poetry is in relation to linguistic and prose .... Then i can admit easily if i am wrong in this matter why? Because i know it so well that i can understand the value of an opinion here easily.... In acoustic it is not so easy for me why? Because here i dont have all the mathematical , the physical and neurophysiological knowledge at hand ... I have only my listenings experiments for 2 years and some basic understanding, then i can spot less easily my limitations about some technical point... But i learned enough to be able to tune my room and the change was ASTOUNDING... It is why i insist about acoustic over gear upgrades... Am i opinionated here? No i know what i lived through... The more we know about something or about a specialized field the easiest it is to spot our ignorance points and suspect and guess about our blind spot in this field .... In the opposite way opinionated person are sometimes specialized mind and expert who know a lot about some aspects but who overestimated the narrow band of their expertise...For a hammer user all is nail... We all die ignorant but we may die the heart and brain open... For me the most interesting aspect of studying is RELATION between fields... Not so much the field in itself ... I am more a mystic or poet than a scientist...But my field of interests are poetry, mathematic, music and linguistic and other i will not mention because i hate too much controversies.. Poet i am then, but i have no fear of equations... 😁😊 I am fascinated by acoustic because there is a poetry in sound called music and there is mathematic... These two extremes poetry and mathematic fascinate me... The great geometer Alain Connes just exposed for the last years the deep link between primes numbers distribution, Hilbert Space non commutative operators, physics and music... Remember that music modulo Pythagoean school is one of the main root of European science... And music is probably at the origin of the language in evolution , and in language the poetic mode complement the prosaic mode so well that at the end i am very interested by exploring the relation between the right part of the brain and the left complementary part, linked to intuition and analysis, details focus or background focus attention, poetical and prosaic mode etc... If you think that poetry and mathematic are world apart think twice they are Janus brothers...And Music is their mother...
|
Some “audiophiles” are technical to various degrees which can help a lot but it is certainly not required. Hifis are all about technology. The most successful audiophiles tend to value and grasp technology correctly I find. They tend to make well informed buying decisions, set things up well, and get across the finish line the fastest.
You can “just trust your ears” and that may work out just fine eventually (or not) but you still have to make well informed buying decisions and set things up well for finicky ears to be happy. |
| Post removed |
Stop making stuff up. There are always kooks. I have never met an audiophile with cables costing far more than their equipment. I cannot discount there arent any, but I've never met them so I can safely say, they are few and far between. If youre talking about thousands of dollars of cable for a system thats tens if not hundreds of thousands of dollars, then the cables are a rounding error. I like good magwheels too, they dont really do anything for how I drive, I buy them anyway. People get so hung up about others. Focus on yourself and enjoy the music. |
The point here is that the more you know about the music and the equipment that brings that music to your living room, the more you'll appreciate all things connected to it. We (audiophiles) have all had our moments, whether incremental or an event with the impact of a sledgehammer where we "got it" and something touched us emotionally, intellectually, or both. Sorry, there are no shortcuts here. If you want to "get" inside the head of an audiophile it will take a considerable commitment to knowing a great deal about the music itself, it's history and those who make it possible to reproduce the energy and presence of musicians (some deceased) in your living room. Yes, there's the many (MANY) hours of equipment auditions in your home, including items that may not readily pass the "logic" test of mainstream audio technology, or the price of admission reaches into the stratosphere. You may just discover that your knowledge base was not quite as complete as you thought it was. If you decide to get off a couple of exits before this level, feel free to do so. Enjoy your music (and equipment) at any level you choose. Just give us "audiophiles" permission to go about the business of loving our music, equipment and exploring the nearly infinite number of possibilities. |
An Audiophile is someone that appreciates music, how it was recorded, the type of equipment that reproduces the recording. You are allowed to purchase inexpensive and price is no object gear. An audiophile enjoys a place they can share knowledge and opinions. The real bonus is when you go to a site like Audiogon and benefit from the knowledge of other Audiophiles that contribute to the forum with past experience and a passion for what will come next. With this in mind you identify the trolls and move on. |
| Post removed |
Citing ASR as a resource is a bit of a joke. The site consists of the minion master, who was a project manager for Microsoft, and a lot of minions. One or two of the minions know something, most do not but believe in a hive mentality. They refuse to listen or accept anyone who has a different opinion. Your comment about the Dac is really silly .Have you listened to many Dacs? Have you listened to R2R dacs which are decried by the ASR minions? One of the Manufactureres that the ASR guys worship like an idol is the Topping group. I find the mid range rather shrill, and am not the only one to do so. As far as cables are concerned, if anyone wants to spend mega money on cabling, it is not my business, it is theirs.
|
@jackhifiguy - you are correct. A 20k cable will likely not improve the stereo separation. We’re done here. We can all shut everything down and go to bed. |
@waytoomuchstuff --that video clip was right on point and helped me explain my audio obsession to my wife who is a wine nut. @jackhifiguy Whether or not you are a troll, someone pointed out that you haven't really been here long enough to make judgements---there are all flavors here and plenty of them are audio engineers, physicists and other technical people who know what they're talking about--thus contradicting the "non-technical" definition because all of them are audiophiles. I second the poster who said keep your fingers off the keyboard and just read (for perhaps a year or so) and you'll learn who to listen to and who can be ignored--that is, if your intentions are honorable. |
That Dac doesn’t even outperform OKTO DA8 if Signal to Noise measurements were your criteria Measurements matter only if you measure the stuff that matters. There are a lot of people who have actually listened to Hi End DACs and can tell you that while I’m sure the DAC sounds fine outperforms "musically" is laughable. |
I mean, really. Attacking people for spending $1,000,000 on component interconnects while Ukrainian families are being brutally murdered by the tens of thousands is an easy mark, and he can’t even get that right, even though people here provide him with spectacular examples of the craft and do it repeatedly, including yours truly. His remarks are off kilter, cognitively and tonality-wise. It’s as if Vladimir Putin tried to do a critique of The Simpsons as being a conveyor of hegemonic imperialist ideology. I doubt this dude is an audiophile. He probably listens to a 6-transistor radio in his mom’s basement. Audiophiles deserve attacks. But please, if you are going to take a whack at it, don’t insult our intelligence, Do it with wit, insight, grace and intelligence (that is, follow the WIGI Rule). Speaking of wit, if not intelligence: whatever happened to the Einstein guy? I haven’t seen him in these parts in a while, but maybe it’s me. theaudioatticvinylsundays.com |
@wyoboy So glad someone actually looked at the video. Hope it helps. I read somewhere that wine pairs pretty well with music. |
I firmly believe in balanced connections and balanced opinions. Tweakers need to expect to be scientifically challenged, and ASR followers need to be open enough to discoveries for which the science may not be immediately evident. Obviously, ultimately, there has to be a scientific explanation for everything, but let's not forget about what happens after the waves hit the eardrum. My take after decades of swapping out gear frequently is that you can get a variety of differences but they are not necessarily improvements...just enough so that each person can pursue their personal tastes, and of course audiophiles, as hobbyists, will take that to an extreme (like stamp collectors...they don't need the stamps to mail anything...its a hobby). Where audiophiles may not be self-aware enough is when they consider something "better" rather than "different."
|
So true.... For me the only ABSOLUTE improvements, when we own a relatively good basic audio system already will come from acoustic/psycho-acoustic improvement in the room... Upgrade is often a mirror of our acoustic ignorance ...And we call the change and the difference our "taste" and an improvement .... It is not always the case at all... There is no "taste" in acoustic, only our particular ears structure and history...Acoustic science is related to many concepts which can de defined objectively and experimented with in a subjective manner... In this experimental correlation between objective and subjective factors in a small room, It is less "taste" that exist, but more a tuning optimization for a specific pair of ears and system and by them... |
at any given time, there are a handful usernames, like the op, and another, deludedxxx.... it is all about chain-jerking - the names change, as these sad people get kicked off, stay silent for a couple weeks, then come back under a new alias... they are the human equivalent of malware a key to getting something positive out of this site is to recognize which users, which threads they populate, are just about this... let's all please remember the truism for productive internet board participation -- ’no energy for the trolls’ |
