Audio Cables: All the Same?

Hey you can talk about cables all day until your blue in the face. The bottom line is that different cables serve different purposes. If your system sounds to warm and laid back ,you buy ones that give the opposite effect and vice versa. Cables are not complicated to get right. IMO!

Matt M

I've done a fair bit of cable swapping with my current system.  I think I've finally found a good mix. 

I sometimes wonder how things might have sounded with earlier systems if I had used good cables instead of inexpensive Monster interconnects and speaker wire. My system at one time included Vandersteen 2C speakers, Adcom GFA555 amp, and NAD 1300 preamp.  I'm guessing it would have sounded a lot better with decent cables. 

@mattmiller no, cables are complicated. :-)

@jmeyers Thank you. Excellent post. I have finally reached a point with my system that I can hear the difference with every change. I am enjoying the search for the ultimate combination. 

OP,

Thanks for recounting your recent cable experience. 

Yes sir they are all the same pretty much. You can use a coat hanger and a piece of copper wire and they’ll sound identical. Try it one day

Some people have systeme that don't reveal the difference in cables.  Read into that what you will. Jerry

If you can't hear the difference in cables then you're just flat out hearing impaired!!!  Heck, even an entry level high end audio system will reveal the differences in cabling.  This is not Chinese Arithmetic!!!   

pls STOP 🛑 It’s your ears deceiving you 😂😔😏

A well built cables will sound the same 

cables only make difference in your pocket 

My problem is this guy will totally FAIL when done A/B test 

@jmeyers 

In summary, what's new?

I have done A/B tests with cheap and expensive cables (ICs) with friends who are not audiophiles---they don't know squat about high-end audio. And every time, they can hear recognizable difference in sound preferring the expensive vs the standard 'out of the box' ICs (as well as speaker cables). 

       Well: the Denyin'tologists are out again, looking for some converts.

                                       Time for a rewind:

@raysmtb1  +  ​​​@lordrootman:

     "Louis Pasteur's theory of germs is ridiculous fiction."  (Pierre Pachet, Professor of Physiology at Toulouse , 1872) 

     "The abdomen, the chest, and the brain will forever be shut from the intrusion of the wise and humane surgeon,"  (Sir John Eric Ericksen, British surgeon, appointed Surgeon-Extraordinary to Queen Victoria 1873)

      "The super computer is technologically impossible.  It would take all of the water that flows over Niagara Falls to cool the heat generated by the number of vacuum tubes required." (Professor of Electrical Engineering, New York University)                        

      "There is no likelihood man can ever tap the power of the atom."  (Robert Millikan, Nobel Prize in Physics, 1923)

      "Man will never reach the moon regardless of all future scientific advances." (Dr. Lee DeForest, Father of Radio & Grandfather of Television)

      "Heavier-than-air flying machines are impossible!" (Lord Kelvin, president, Royal Society, 1895) 

      "The bomb will never go off.  I speak as an expert in explosives."  (Admiral William Leahy, re: US Atomic Bomb Project) 

     When the steam locomotive came on the scene; the best (scientific) minds proclaimed, "The human body cannot survive speeds in excess of 35MPH."

      Until recently (21st Century); and the advent of the relatively new science of Fluid Dynamics, the best (scientific) minds involved in Aerodynamics, could not fathom how a bumblebee stays aloft. 

     Often; Science has to catch up with the facts/phenomena of Nature and/or, "reality" (our universe). 

     I haven't been in school since the 60's, but- at Case Institute of Technology; the Physics Prof always emphasized what we were studying was, "Electrical THEORY."         He strongly made a point of the fact that no one had yet actually observed electrons (how they behave on the quantum level) and that only some things can really be called, "LAWS." (ie: Ohm, Kirchoff, Faraday)   

                  PERHAPS: that's changed in recent years and I missed it?

                                                 Happy listening!

Taking the Eggs Benedict analogy a step further, imagine that when you’re served the two meals you don’t know which was prepared by which cook. After tasting each dish you find them equally tasty and can’t tell them apart. You call it a trick and from then on will only consider meals where you know who prepared them.

Btw, blind testing is a scientific test of your hearing.

Ah, the daily cable argument! Keep beating on that dead horse! 

"Blinders" LOL

Try industry useful idiots.

There may not be a scientific test for what you hear (although there is), but there is a scientific test to determine if what you’re hearing is different than what you heard with different cables. Unfortunately way too many people won’t admit that it works because then they couldn’t boast about their new Nordhost or Siltech wiring. Just as way too many people won’t admit their religious beliefs are faulty, but ya gotta have faith that it works. Yes, audiophilia shares many aspects with religion.

Love that famous lyric line “ Do you hear what I hear “  The BS with this type of post it’s always the same, with no resolve. Imo if you spent big money on cables and don’t hear what you want take em back, simple, shut up, move on, time is precious. There’s always going to be tweaks, placebo, snake oil, and a market, do remember We’re all going to run out of time !

Cheers 

dwcda

blind testing is a scientific test of your hearing.

That is a common misnomer. Hearing is tested using objective standards and is conducted (at the minimum) by an audiologist. These are licensed professionals and they don't use blind testing.

ABX testing in audio isn't designed to test the listener - and that explains why thorough ABX testing involves multiple listeners. A/B testing and ABX testing is intended to assess the device under test, known as a DUT. The "device" isn't the listener.

That is why, in practice, no listener can "fail" an A/B or ABX test - the listener isn't under test. The only thing an A/B or A/B/X test can reveal is whether a listener could identify a difference between the components under the conditions of the test. It reveals nothing else.

I get a laugh out of these cable discussions. Why do you feel you have to preach to your fellow audiophiles, justifying your expenditure on cables? Why does it matter if I can or cannot hear a difference in cables? If I tell you that an overwhelming body of evidence exists that under blind conditions you cannot hear the difference in cables, would you care? What if I also tell you that an overwhelming body of scientific evidence says that preexisting bias has a huge influence on human preferences? Would any of this cause you to reexamine your beliefs? Of course not.

Cable defenders seem a lot like evangelical religious people who have to justify their beliefs and seek to convert others to their cause. I'm sorry that you are so obsessed with whether or not I can hear the difference in cables. It looks like this is part of your identity so if it makes you feel better to buy lots of expensive cables and and make lengthy self indulgent posts about a subject that has been beaten to death, go right ahead. It's your time and money.

Science can absolutely, most definitely quantify the differences between two plates of eggs Benedict, but it cannot say which one will taste the best. To you.

I shall make this final comment about my posting. My intent was not to justify my own expenditures for new cables. Rather, it was to share my [positive] experience, which, incidentally, was quite surprising to me and in contradiction of my expectation. I sought to encourage other current skeptics to explore the possibility that employing new cables in their own audio systems MIGHT ameliorate tonal or other problems they are experiencing.

One of the primary ways people learn is from the shared experiences of others. To close one's mind to such learning opportunities is, well, sad.

Voices seemed to come only from a singer’s mouth and not also from the chest

I'm sorry but there is no possible way to read those words & not think that you are justifying the $2,000-$3,000 worth of cables that you bought. Veil lifted... check, magic returned... check, wife noticed from another room while casually listening, nope, missed one.

A duplicative story, most will agree there is an incredible lack of interest in this age old topic, it’s been beaten to death. In short who cares, better chance selling a fridge to an Eskimo with no cord. 

Cleeds you're right ABX tests test the device, the cable in this case. And really that's the point, a scientific test exists to compare 2 cables. Unfortunately sighted comparisons are subject to listener bias and are meaningless. No one denies what they think they hear, they're just pointing out the obvious and inherent bias 

What is common about your 2 cabels from a scientific standpoint is the cryo that puts the atoms back in thier lattice atomic structure and allows electrons to flow more efficiently. I have used it cryo in many engine ..gear and other for strength and rigidity.the placebo effect is 20%in medicine.this seems to be more than that.enjoy the music stay healthy

Do cables make an audible difference?  Why, of course they do.  However, whether or not cables make a difference, like all things high end audio, is solely dependent upon the ears of the individual audiophile, and no one else.  What the hell do I care if someone else believes that cables make no difference and they all sound the same regardless of construction, cost or tech.  That's their business.  My only concern is what effects my own high end audio rig.  Period.  Happy listening.    

abnerjack

Cleeds, do I need to remind you how outspoken you were regarding discussing politics? You were adamant that nothing but audio is to be discussed on these forums. Now you want to discuss someone’s qualifications to discuss religious beliefs?

You sound confused. If you feel I’ve posted anything improper, please direct your complaint to the moderators, @abnerjack.

There’s a reason why studios don’t use those overhyped cables. They use $50/3m wires mostly and those indeed will match recorded material if played. No need to fall on explanations as to why those $10000 per pair cables will make difference you don’t really need. If all you need is to match studio quality, then buy same cables.

Mogami Silver cables are certainly the most popular in recording studios. 

One of the primary ways people learn is from the shared experiences of others. To close one’s mind to such learning opportunities is, well, sad.

Amen. The damage the naysayers do here is that they may stop or delay others from even trying different/better cables, and that’s the really sad part and the real value of a post like this — it may spur some people who are on the fence or are less experienced to just try. If they do and don’t hear any difference, well then fine but at least they tried for themselves and if nothing else gained some valuable knowledge/experience along the way. To tell people cables make no difference is discouraging them from even trying for themselves just because you either don’t hear a difference or, worse, just “believe” they can’t make a difference. In this day and age it’s so easy to try cables with direct sellers or in the used market with little/no risk, so why would you discourage people from taking advantage of that and just seeing/hearing for themselves? There are scores of people here who, much like the OP, lived with cheaper/lesser cables for years because they didn’t think they’d make a difference only to find that once they just tried something else how much they were missing out on all those years simply because they held on to a “belief.” I myself was guilty of this and lived with a budget digital cable for years thinking it wouldn’t make much difference on a relative basis, but when I finally tried a better cable it made a significant improvement and I kicked myself for waiting so long to try something else just because of my “belief.” If your experience/belief is that cables are overpriced and/or don’t make a difference that’s perfectly fine, but discouraging others from just trying and finding out for themselves is not fine and why posts like this still have potential value for many out there.

It's a lot like buying puppies, initially when you buy puppies from different breeds they act alike and after they are broken in a little they begin to take on different personalities.

This is very true for cables.

abnerjack

I am not confused at all, but I’m afraid your memory is failing you. For the purpose of accuracy, here are a couple of posts you made ...

My memory is fine. You sound confused. Please stop. If you feel I have posted improper content please direct your complaint to the moderators. You can use the Contact Us link that is at the bottom of each page, @abnerjack .

Bickering is a fine way to promote our hobby.

@emergingsoul ,

To me

It's a lot like buying puppies, initially when you buy puppies from different breeds they act alike and after they are broken in a little they begin to take on different personalities.

This is very true for cables.

it sounds just like a great stand-up comedy line...!

Interesting.

Other than politics and religion, the sonic value(s) of cables brings out greater passions - on one side or the other.

I can only state my experience(s) (assuming all ears are the same level of sharpness):

1.  I have used a high end Elrod AC cable on amplifiers with jaw dropping effect.  I have also used the same cable on another power amplifier with very little effect.      FACT Not all power cables will produce the same outcome on all power amps.        I speculate that this fact is due to the differences in the amount of gain, feedback loops, shielding, rectification noise etc. within each power amplifier.  Synergy is critical.

As someone old enough to remember when Switchcraft was the upgrade, and who was present in the business when Noel Lee arrived, I want to remind everyone here that the principle reason there is a cable business is simply greed. I have collected many cables over the years and still regard them as a very minor factor in system accuracy, which is what I value. 

If they’re all the same, why do they sound different?

I propose the same is true for cables – there is no scientific test for what we hear.

Agreed. None yet. The brain and perception are extraordinarily complicated systems. The notion that engineering is up to the task of measuring all that can be measured as it relates to those psychological and physiological systems is the fallacy most responsible for this debate -- in my view. It is redolent of a physicalist/materialist view of the world which does not pass muster. It is a dogmatism.

The other psychological question I would pose to you @jmeyers is this:

If you hear a difference and it makes a difference to you, why do you find this debate at all interesting? I mean that seriously, because I find it interesting to, and yet I cannot quite understand why. What’s your reason for "settling the score" in a debate you have settled for yourself?

Cables are a belief system, like many others in our lives. Some people believe that a $5,000 cable makes a significant enough difference to pay the money, others don’t. How is a newcomer to this hobby to judge for themself whether a cable is worth the money? In my case I purchased audio equipment first before considering cables or other tweaks. Initially I purchased good quality, well made Mogami power, interconnect & speaker cables. When I upgraded my hardware the dealer said I should consider getting better cables. He sent some mid-range (Super) Transparent cables to try. I tried them & could hear no difference. I listened to the Transparent cables for a week & then switched back to Mogami. If there was a difference I couldn’t hear it. Later my dealer sent some AQ Dragon HC power cables for my amps. Again, no improvement over the Mogami.

- it is not necessarily cost free to test cables whether they’re on loan or not. In my case I had to ship them back & the Dragons are >$5,000 Cdn and shipping and insurance for that max insurable value is about $350. Same for the Transparents when I shipped them back. And if you don’t insure them & they get lost, now you’re on the hook for thousands of $$ of cables you don’t have.

- when I first put the Transparent cables on I definitely thought that it sounded better. After a week when I swapped back there was no difference. If I thought that there was I would have done some blind testing to see if I was actually hearing a difference or just kidding myself. But the key point is that initially  I believed that they were better. Had I  stopped there, I'd never know that they weren't

- when I got the Dragons I did do some blind testing & neither the Mogami nor the Dragon were preferred.

- I’ve been told that the difference of an entire loom of cables is pretty small and should be a last step in finalizing the sound of your system. Something like a 10% improvement. But I was also told that swapping the entire loom isn’t necessary to notice a difference. Just one interconnect should be a definite change. So out of the 10 or so cables (power/interconnect/speaker) they can improve SQ by 10% combined yet some people can hear improvements of 1 out of 10 cables being changed. Potentially a 1% improvement.

- and now I read that cables can enable the listener to hear the music coming from the singer’s mouth or from the chest, or both. Couple that with the supposed ability to detect a change in SQ after 200-500 hours of using a cable... your brain can remember & compare something you just heard with something you listened to days/weeks ago and decide which is better... the necessity of pointing cables in the right direction (amp to speaker), elevating them off of the floor with high priced elevators, crossing other cables perpendicularly... it’s exhausting.

So by all means newcomers to audio equipment should consider cables and test their own belief system. But if you’re going to do it you owe it to yourself & your bank account to at a minimum compare your new "veil lifting" cables with your old cables by switching them blindly. I mean, why wouldn’t you? Other than not wanting to know that the new cables do nothing, why wouldn’t you compare without seeing the cables? Imagine if there was an easy way to test your faith in your preferred religion. Just do this simple test & you no longer have to have blind faith. Why wouldn’t you do it?

                                                 Religious faith? 

                         WELL: the Cargo Cult's still building runways.

                                          Time for another repost:

Cargo cult science is a pseudoscientific method of research that favors evidence that confirms an assumed hypothesis. In contrast with the scientific method, there is no vigorous effort to disprove or delimit the hypothesis.[1] The term cargo cult science was first used by physicist Richard Feynman during his 1974 commencement address at the California Institute of Technology.[1]

Cargo cults are religious practices that have appeared in many traditional tribal societies in the wake of interaction with technologically advanced cultures.

     Do a bit a research and you'll learn those primitives were limited in their understanding, of what they saw with their eyes, based on their prior experience, education and BIASES.

                                                A rewind:

                 It isn't that the Denyin'tologists are ignorant.

               It's they're knowing* so much, that's WRONG.

                       *heart of the Dunning-Kruger Effect

                                              OR, two:

     The Church of the Naysayer Doctrine (like every other faith-based, religious cult) has as many dopes as it does Popes.   

     Bring up anything resembling SCIENCE/PHYSICS, dated later than the 1800’s and they become apoplectic, not having the formal education to comprehend the concepts, or- possible ramifications.    THAT would be hilarious, were it not so pathetic!        

           Gimme That Old Time Religion, Gimme That Old Time Religion, etc.

        At the very first mention of something as simple as Wave Function (a BASIC tenet of Quantum Mechanics), the Cargo Cult will label you a KOOK.

        But remember: they can only view/understand you, based on their limited experience, education and BIASES.

         They have overlooked the fact that, if not for the hypotheses/theories and experimentation, regarding Quantum Mechanics: a plethora of modern conveniences, medical devices and the gear they so love, would not exist.

          Had scientists, chemists and inventors shared the doctrines of the Cargo Cult (Denyin'tologists), there would be no semiconductors, computer chips, LASERs, or Magnetic Resonance Imaging devices (MRIs).

                                         Solid State amps?

                                     OOPS (back to tubes)!

                                        Your Smart Phone?

                                        FA'GET ABOUT IT!

                                         Your car's GPS?

                                                NOPE!

    Then too: some may be willfully ignorant and just enjoy being contentious.

                        Others: obtuse, uneducated*, misinformed?

      *Typically, from what's been exhibited here: H.S. STEM, if that, would be a safe inference.

      Either way: the result, when the Cult begins it's rhetoric, is a classic demo of the Dunning- Kruger Effect.

                                          But, I digress: 

       Bring up those pesky details, regarding the likes of QED, Dielectric Absorption, Poynting's theorem and possible application/effects, relative to frequency, that our musical signals are carried via photon or wave, outside the conductor and you're a KOOK?

         Again: the Cargo Cult can only understand anyone with an actual background, experience and education in Physics/QED, based on heir own beliefs, (limited) education, experience and biases.                                      

     One anecdote  that some may find interesting: about their walks in the woods and how Richard Feynman's father would encourage him to look beyond the fact that something in nature exists, into why and how.

     It saddened him that while attending college, during a visit home and one of their walks: his dad asked what he was learning in college.

     At that moment, he realized: if he tried to explain what he was learning, there was no way his dad could understand.                               

                            It wasn't an insult or condescension.

                                                Just reality.

                                  Oh well: let 'the cult go build a runway!

                                                        references:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Applications_of_quantum_mechanics#:~:text=Examples%20include%20lasers%2C%20electron%20microscopes,systems%2C%20computer%20and%20telecommunication%20devices.

https://www.energy.gov/science/doe-explainsquantum-mechanics#:~:text=Quantum%20mechanics%20led%20to%20the,the%20science%20of%20quantum%20mechanics!

https://uwaterloo.ca/institute-for-quantum-computing/quantum-101/quantum-applications-today

          But: I'm, "religious", because I believe in the SCIENCE, from which all that sprang?

     https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/five-practical-uses-spooky-quantum-mechanics-180953494/

           Einstein got that last one wrong (Quantum Entanglement), BUT- I still wish he'd been alive, when the Hubble Telescope proved, what he considered his, "greatest blunder" (his inability to bring symmetry to his field equation, without lambda)

.https://www.aps.org/publications/apsnews/200507/history.cfm#:~:text=Einstein's%20original%20equations%20had%20been,how%20the%20universe%20will%20end.                                     

                                            How about that?

Another example of a hypothesis/theory, with no way to EXPERIMENT/MEASURE, what you're sure must be there, in some detectable way, or another.

                                               Just for fun:

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/6-times-quantum-physics-blew-our-minds-in-2022/

                                            Happy listening!

Yup. Definitely not a cult.

@cleeds 

Hearing is tested using objective standards 

No it isn't. Traditional hearing exams are thresholding tests, and by definition are not objective. 

My patience has worn thin trying to wade through 1,000 word essays where the author pays no attention to typography.

@macg19 

My thoughts exactly.