The Poseidon has a superior pre-amp section which does not falter during the day. Apparently, it has an excellent voltage regulation design.
Audio Cables: All the Same?
My patience has worn thin reading numerous postings by individuals who proclaim that anyone who spends more than, say, $30 on a cable is an “audiophool” and that the manufacturers who sell cables priced above that price are snake oil dealers. These people base their claims on two factors: (1) they can’t hear the difference between a cheap cable and an extremely expensive one; and (2) all cables of any quality whatsoever measure the same when tested.
I believe that these individuals have blinders on. Allow me to set forth a useful analogy – eggs Benedict. The recipe for them is simple: toast an English muffin; sauté a couple of slices of Canadian bacon; poach two eggs; and prepare Hollandaise sauce. After those ingredients are ready, put the Canadian bacon on the English muffin, stack the eggs on the bacon, pour Hollandaise sauce over the eggs (and possibly sprinkle a pinch of hot paprika over the sauce), and serve. Voila! Now, take two preparers – one of whom doesn’t give a damn how his eggs Benedict turns and tastes as long as he gets his $17.50/hour pay; and the other a supremely talented chef renowned for his exquisite preparation of egg dishes. I am willing to venture a guess that one of them will taste terrific, perhaps being the memorable highlight of a marvelous breakfast, and the other will be an awful mess, perhaps a composition of barely toasted and soggy English muffin, Canadian bacon so overcooked that the meat is like shoe leather, poached eggs like hockey pucks, and a severely curdled muck of a sauce poured over everything, followed by far too much paprika. That serving will also be memorable, but for a far different reason.
Now, here comes the chemist to test and measure both versions of eggs Benedict. He confirms that, upon his testing of the two dishes, he is able to state unequivocally that they are identical because both contain exactly the same ingredients and provide the same nutritional value. The fact that one serving is nearly inedible and the other is altogether delicious is irrelevant. After all, there is no science-based test for taste.
I propose the same is true for cables – there is no scientific test for what we hear.
Let me end my soliloquy by relating my recent experience with cables. A couple of months ago, I upgraded my digital system by acquiring a new SACD transport and a new DAC. Both components are widely considered to be extremely high end pieces of equipment (and priced stratospherically, too). At the time I did not replace the cables I had been using previously – an Audioquest Cimarron Ethernet cable between my 24 port network switch and my DAC, and Monster Cable M1000 analog interconnects between my DAC and my preamp. Frankly, I was dismayed by what I heard when I began streaming (Qobuz) music through my new DAC. The magic I had heard at its demonstration at AXPONA 2024 was non-existent. Maybe it was a bit better than my old DAC, but certainly not by much. One of the local audio dealers with whom I shared my disappointment suggested I try a really good Ethernet cable, handing me a Shunyata Sigma V2. This Shunyata cable contains two filters (one for EMI/RFI and one for common-mode interference) as well as several differentiators in how it is constructed. I really despise the expression oft-used by reviewers – “like a veil was lifted” – but that is what happened. The magic had returned. However, now I had another problem. Voices seemed to come only from a singer’s mouth and not also from the chest. With instrumentals, a certain fundamental (bass) element was missing. Overall, it was as if the entire frequency spectrum was tilted – lifting the treble and lowering the bass. I went back to this dealer. He recommended I try a pair of DH Labs Air Matrix Cryo analog interconnects between my DAC and my preamp. All I can say is “Wow!” The frequency spectrum had returned to its proper equilibrium.
I have now been using these new cables for a month. Their impacts are not the result of a placebo effect. Moreover, the last thing in the world I had wanted was to spend a couple of thousand dollars more for cables after I had already spent far more than I had planned on the SACD transport and the DAC. However, they had addressed and solved two very real problems. The Shunyata cable filtered out noise coming from the network switch; the DH Labs cable eliminated a frequency distortion inherent with the Monster Cable cable (which evidently had been masked by the predecessor DAC).
Before this experience, I had never believed that cables could be so important an element of an audio system. I always spent between $100 and $200 on them because, on the one hand I did not want to “chintz” and shortchange myself sonically, but on the other hand I was very skeptical that even spending that amount was fully money-for-incremental-value.
Since then, I tried replacing another Audioquest Cimarron Ethernet cable between my Nucleus+ and my network switch with a $500 Ethernet cable of another well-regarded cable manufacturer. I could not detect a shred of sonic difference between them. Thus, it has become clear to me that every cable implementation is unique; sometimes there is a discernable improvement provided by one over the other, and other times there isn’t.
In summary, having a preconceived notion about the value of cables (or lack thereof) disserves oneself. In some cases, but not all, there is a cable out there that will truly improve the sound of one’s audio system. It may be immeasurable, but it is, nevertheless, very real.
105 responses Add your response
+1 This is my experience with RF/EMI. No waveform monitors needed. My ears were sufficient. Cleaning up the rat’s nest of cabling was definitely beneficial - but only after establishing the foundation of clean power, quality power supplies and quality cabling.
+1 Also sold my SR fuses.* But, I love my Synergistic Research Atmosphere Series cabling. Wow! I didn’t know my system could sound so good. (*SR’s assorted tuning modules offer more SQ options.) |
@audioquest4life Thank you so much! I appreciate someone who appreciates the effort I made in building a very good listening room. The VS set up team took only about 1.5 hours instead of the allotted 5 hours because the room is sonically very good/easy to install speakers. It doesn't hurt that the speakers have adjustable subs built in and both front and rear tweeter/supertweeter adjustments (total 7 adjustments per speaker without digital room correction. I have learned the hard way what is important in audio cables for home use. When my EAR 912/864/890 equipment was developed in the 1990s and early 2000s, electricity was so much cleaner with virtually no cell phones or internet or other more modern RF and EMI circulating. Now, that equipment in the summer sounds terrible during the weekdays when the temps are over 95. At midnight, the sound is superb. On weekends, the sound is mostly good and blooms again at midnight. A/C draw and cleanliness of the power lines during the weekdays is apparently at fault. The EAR equipment lacks voltage regulation, unlike my other gear which replaced them. At the time di Paravicini thought that a simple cap could take the ripple problem of voltage regulation adequately. Nope, not now for certain. Tomorrow I will be testing my Lampizator Poseidon as a pre-amp during a weekday to see if it's voltage regulation can prevent really bad/flat/undynamic/boxy sound during weekdays that EAR gear suffers from in my neighborhood. Two nights ago, I tried the Belden/Blue Jeans LC1 interconnect for phono use. I read that it has only 12.9 pf of capacitance per foot, very low. It worked beautifully and has better highs and more out of the speaker sound than my prior boutique and very well insulated low capacitance phono cable. Shockingly good (and slightly louder sounding mids and bass). It just passes more information. |
It is very simple to see the difference cables make, simply do a frequency / amplitude and noise test with the old cable and with the new cable the difference is the difference. These aren't magical impressions that aren't measurable, audio is very easily measured unlike tase or some subjective sense. Sound is objective and easy to test.
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Oh, don’t you hate it when the post you are writing, including attachments, disappears because you tested the photo link in the preview and cannot go back? Shoot...again once more... Top is new cable and below is replaced cable. The replacement cable is a 2x6ga hot wire with double shielding over the previous cable. Sound went from rich to deep, from articulate to spacious in 3D. The KRIX Harmonix speakers driven by the Audio Research D240MKII are room-filling now. Surprisingly, this replacement cable is in my Marantz AV8805. It was as good as anything I’ve had, including PassLabs, Esoteric, and Krell, among others. Now if I could post a couple of videos I have on hand...to demo that not all cables are the same. |
Your response stands out to me as one of the most succinct and coherent responses related to the subject. I located a few Navy and NASA research papers regarding RF/EMI influence on signals and signal loss at varying lengths dependent on gauge and type of cable. Some of these papers date back to the early 70s. The point is, these organizations measured signal interference in critical signal and power cables to see what influence that RF/EMI had on the signal transmission and power transmission. They concluded that the measured distortion was high enough to cause some signal degradation but the signals could be adjusted at the source with a device to ensure signal integrity and cables could be constructed in a way to prevent signal loss and to mitigate against RF/EMI. Active shielding is one way to mitigate these problems. Another, of course, is higher gauge shielding around a specific type of wire loom. They did not have the computing power back then to make solid recommendations.
My take away is that cables need to be created in a way to support the application for which they will be used. In other words, there is a rationale for using 12-16 gauge wire with dense shielding in a noisy environment. I know of only a few companies that provide technical and noise measurements with their cables and maybe 1 or 2 companies that have active shielding. For those who want technical parameters to suit their systems, these cables provide that information. For some people, it’s cut and dry, spend more for better, or for others, don’t spend more for the same. For others, spend money on cables that meet the requirements for your system with published specifications. This is where there is no real price equation as the consumer will purchase the cable based off the merits of the specifications that meet their system requirements. Every electronic device in the chain has a noise opportunity for which it must be countered. BTW, very nice room. I thought I had a bunker. Yours is mine on steroids. Great job. |
You have a very impressive background. What you know all makes sense, but just isn’t relevant in playback. It isn’t just about digits and what happens to power before it gets to the last six feet. I recommend finding a nearby audiophile or dealer willing to spend some time demonstrating what real world playback is like. There are many stories by folks that have spent years experimenting with digital, cables and power and the differences made by factors that theoretically should not matter are amazing and completely reproducible. |
Hello all Very interesting discussion. For reference my modest system consists of a Proceed HPA-2, Lexicon MC-8 I use in two channel pure analog mode and a Denon SACD. Well regarded components I would say. What makes it a little more special are the DCM Time Frame 2000 speakers framing it all. I don't recall any bad reviews on these velvet hammers. I have had them for years and still smile when I crank a good live recording! By the way that seems like a good benchmark on what one owns. One day while vacuuming I damaged the banana plug jack on the right speaker. The repair required removing the plastic assembly for the plugs. Leading to the crossover was a pair of red and black 16 ga normal wire. Hmm. That gauge is only good for 18 amps... Some of the comments on 500 dollar ethernet cables stunned me. I have 35 years in instrumentation and low voltage controls. I was an Electronics Tech/Surface Reactor Operator aboard USS Enterprise. Point being I am educated in fields pertinent to this discussion. One job in my career was installing new data wiring for a Level 4 Bio Hazard Lab in Hamilton MT. Yes, true, federal facility even. The standards for the cables and terminations were extremely high. A very expensive Lantech 2 tester was used. Most of the time the way the wiring was laid on the keystone before being punched down was the issue. It could take several tries to pass. RJ 45 connectors are quite simple after a couple thousand and almost never failed to pass. Crosstalk, bandwidth and frankly quite a few tests I was not familiar with. Normal Cat 6 wire, keystones and RJ 45 connectors. I recently read how the bass player for Black Sabbath played thru a blown guitar amp. It struck me how funny that was considering the exceptional lengths people go to for sound reproduction. Even if a band played the same song daily it would always sound different. I ask this question with respect: how is it that all of the equipment to amplify music and voice and record said is so normal but to correctly reproduce it takes six figures of unobtanium forged in Mordor? I currently cannot locate a Fender amp that requires having good home equity. Finally to power cords. To further bore you with my past it also includes seven years at the power plants of PPL in Colstrip MT. If you think some of your CD transports are precise and quiet try walking by 600 tons of turbine blades and generator stator spinning 3600 rpm and not feel a thing. Anyway. So that electricity is stepped up, transmitted, stepped down multiple times, makes it to your service and through your wiring to the living room. NOW six feet of wire is somehow going produce some audible effect? What happened to the power supplies in the gear? I am honestly waiting for someone to preach how much better their system sounds on solar power.
Thanks for listening if you got this far. I LOVE my Time Frames! |
"Let’s begin with what to avoid—gold is always a good myth to start with. All expensive audio cables on the market and even the cheaper ones will often make a big deal out of “gold plated interconnects” this and that. The reason for this has nothing to do with signal quality, as any metallurgists will tell you that copper and silver are far better conductors. Furthermore, the inner part of the cable will almost always be copper for that exact reason. Copper oxidizes in the air, requiring constant cleaning, or cables will not last very long. Gold or zinc plating doesn’t tarnish and ensures a longer life. However, even cheap cables have some form of coating that will last the cable’s lifetime. Gold plating is definitely not worth the extra cost. Another common sales pitch is the need for special shielding or insulation to prevent electromagnetic interference, crosstalk, or noise from other sources. Electromagnetic radiation can actually be a problem in some situations, for very low signal levels or when dealing with very high-speed digital data. It won’t be an issue over the short distance from your pocket to your headphones or from an amplifier to the speaker. The “skin effect” is another common cable myth, and you should steer clear of cable companies that claim their bits of wire fix this apparent problem. The skin effect has practical consequences in the analysis and design of radio-frequency and microwave circuits and antennas, but it does not occur to any meaningful extent at audio signal frequencies, so it is of no real concern in our application. Cables also cannot affect things like bit depth, sample rate, and the like. So if someone tries to upsell you on fancy cables that promise better audio quality from a digital source, don’t buy from them. Additionally, brand names do not have any influence on the laws of physics. Do not pay more for brand names." - Soundguys.com There's a lot of this out there no doubt, but we all keep spending money on expensivce cables. I dont use inexpensive cables, that's for sure, Speaker Lines, RCA Connects, S/PDIF, Ethernet, et al, however, I certainly don't drop thousands on them either. I will say though that silver wiring does sound differnt than copper. The higher composite of either can and does change the sound package. That needs to be minded whan matching cables to particular speakers & electronics. Just my experience... |
Power cables must be safe as a first condition. There are micro shorts that can occur and many boutique cable manufacturers do not or cannot afford the equipment to test for power issues which could possibly lead to a fire and/or equipment failure. It is apparent that keeping RF/EMI in power cables away from equipment and from equipment infecting ICs and speaker cables is very important. Inadequate shielding can make cables act like antennas. Also, firmly fitting connections/connectors without overly heavy and/or overly stiff cabling is another important concern. After that, the field is wide open for cables of different types and different sonic behaviors, often system dependent (such as a cable sounding neutral, dynamic, tonally correct and maintaining a wide frequency spectrum in one system may not sound that way in another). This is the tough part. The other conditions should be met first, especially for high cost or boutique cabling. I went to Blue Jean Belden XLRs and digital cable (cheap) for a high end system ($195K retail) because it has the conditions I listed and permits me to hear most of what I paid for in equipment (see my profile). I spent my money first on the listening room ($150K), then on cabling with Acme treated fuses for $22/$24 replacing Synergistic Research fuses. I have many SR blue and purple fuses for sale now. |
I don't know if the difference in cables would hold up to ABX testing for most people. I initially thought that there was no difference in cables but tried a couple of expensive but not too expensive (under $1,000) cables and heard what I believe to be a difference for the better. However, the difference is not that noticeable in relation to the entire system for me. What I heard upon first hearing the cables is not something I notice anymore once the cable is incorporated into the system. I can hear the speakers and the amp as well as the source information. So the way I handle it is to get what I think is decent stuff but not to put too much emphasis on it other than definitely staying with the Silversmith Fidelium speaker cables for my main system (wife doesn't like the way it looks so not for the second system in the house) in my studio. |
“My patience has worn thin reading numerous postings by individuals…” For God’s sake, why? Who cares what “individuals” post? Audiophiles sound more loopy to the general public when we bicker and whine than when we say cable differences are real. Here’s a wild idea. Ignore those “individuals.” Do what you want with your cables, listen to music, and maybe take up meditation. It’s not worth the mental energy. |
I agree with this. I also believe that you have to tackle a single variable at a time, as possible. In other words, understand how your amp and speakers interact. Then preamp and amp. Then source. Or the other way. But being linear in this hobby is useful. It takes a long time. You really can't force it. |
The OP lost a lot of credibility with the eggs benedict analogy. Of course science could differentiate between the two plates: this bacon is more carbonized than on the other plate; the water content in this muffin is higher thus making it mushy; the temperature of this egg is higher than the other (so, overcooked); the paprika content is 147% higher on the second plate. There is a ton of science in cooking. This debate is too formless to be useful (if it would ever be otherwise). The distinction between digital and analog is critical in the analysis. Digital cables are more of the "do they or don’t they work" period (binary!) type, whereas I allow there may be potential differences between analog cables. However I don’t equate sound quality with exotic or expensive materials. And I try to be practical and not go to the "veil lifted off...wife noticed from the other room" level of statements, albeit I experienced it once when I actively biamped my Maggies (no, my wife didn’t come running in). The argument (as an argument) need not exist if the pro-cable believers didn’t get so upset in the face of contradiction, albeit there are uncivil posters on each side. But it’s totally legitimate to post skepticism and to remind people of established science in the area. There are many less experienced hobbyists or newbies who look to Audiogon as a source of knowledge. Sometimes it’s important to point out that belief is different from knowledge. I suppose that can go both ways. |
I was using Mogami 2549’s from WBC for all my components except the connection from my pre to my amp. The following is my review, when I switched that cable to 2549’s. 1. Cables absolutely make a difference. |
All you need is OFC at the right gauge for the length of the run. That's it. Anything else is just snake oil in regards to audible performance. If you want to spend thousands of dollars on cables because they LOOK nice, then go for it. But don't be fooled by fraud, er, marketing. They will not improve the sound over standard OFC speaker cable. Beware... Audiogon forums are a hotbed of thise fooled by placebo and confirmation bias. Educate yourself.
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MIT Computer Music Journal published a blind AB test of cables, oh, 20-25 years ago that really should have shut a lot of people up. Some of the listeners could not tell the difference between cables, while others did. One tester (identified by only the initials "JA") responded correctly 100% of the time. So if someone claims that he or she can’t hear any sonic difference between two cables in a particular sound system & room, then my conclusion would be: i) that person is simply not capable of that degree of differentiation; ii) the system does not have sufficient resolution to reveal any differences (i.e., cabling is not its weakest link); iii) the cables do not interact with some system-specific characteristic in a way that alters SQ; or iv) those particular cables really do sound very similar. In none of these cases, is it reasonable to assume that a choice of cables cannot under any circumstances produce sonic differences. And I still groan when I hear about non-experimentalists whining about the sine qua non of double-blind ABX testing. There are many ways to conduct an ABX test, and some of the most common can be ineffectual when evaluating differences in a listener's perception of sound quality. You can't simply migrate an ABX procedure that works for visual or tactile sources into the audio domain -- the way our brain processes sound is not like the way it perceives visual stimulus. This is a big topic, and probably worthy of its own thread. But it's quite possible for unblinded AB audio comparisons to produce more credible results than would an ad hoc DBABX procedure. So again, I have to make a generalization that generalizations are rarely helpful. |
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I was one of the disbelievers years ago. Then, a friend who owns a high end shop let me demo various speaker and interconnect cables from Kimber, Cardas, Analysis Plus, amongst others including variations of each at different price points. What I did was to introduce each into my then system and have my lovely wife give me her opinions. She did not know if what was installed was a three dollar, or three-thousand dollar cable. She made comments along the way such as; what did you do, that sounds muffled, or what did you do, I've never heard those details in that song before. This worked quite well. See, with me knowing what each cable costed, I felt biased. In the end, I went with all Tellurium Q Ultra Black cables and was very pleased. Fast forward thirteen or so years and I recently changed everything over to Audience Front Row. I apologize for any typo's. I have a progressing retina disease and don't see font very well these days. The good news is that my hearing is still very good. |
This is the point of the OP's post here, there is no such lab. There is no machine/equipment/analyzer that can perceive the difference in taste between a Michelin 5 star chef's hollandaise and an inferior one, and the experts would claim what would be the point in developing such a tool when there is the human mouth which clearly can make the distinction. Likewise, there is no lab that can fully perceive the difference in sound quality between cables. The known parameters of capacitance, resistance, inductance do not. Also run as many reactance, impedance, susceptance, transconductance and magnetic flux calculations as you like, include all your fancy sine wave and frequency response graphs to impress the flat-earthers, but it will never reveal how the cable will sound. But human's do have ears, so why bother? Do you know what soundstage is? Measure that in the lab. But hey, feel free to pull out your $78 multi-meter and tell me all cables are the same. Maybe it will work in hollandaise sauce also? |
I’ll do my best to save you the labor pains, and just give you the baby. Taking the opposite approach: IMHO, 2 cables with different materials, geometry, gauge, dialetric (insulator) terminations, and termination methods, will sound DIFFERENT. Period. Way back when, the Monster Cable guy convinced me to bring in the original beefy speaker wire. (It took some convincing. What a ridiculous, overblown spool of audio BS this is!!) It hung on the peg board for months. No sales. (Of course, we weren’t recommending, or even mentioning it). Seeing dollars hanging on the pegboard with no perceivable return on investment, I decided to take them home and hook, them up to my system. After wresting with the mass of hundreds of strands, and a few curse words later, I finally got the signal from Point A to Point B, and dropped the "needle" on the record. Sitting very low exceptions, I was simply stunned by what I heard. My audio vocabulary was pretty limited back then, and several decades have passed since. I just remember a sound with less strain, more bass, and overall improvement in balance. We started recommending MC, and never looked back. Part 2 of the cable story was a couple of years later and we had a high end ($80) interconnect on hand. We had just received a flagship $800 CD player from a manufacturer. We also had good success with their $300 unit. After spending some quality time listening to the new player, we swapped the OEM interconnect for the "high end" model. Boom!! This lead to a serious question: "Will a $300 player with a "high end" interconnect sound as good a high end player with an OEM cable?" Well, 6 out of 6 of us preferred the sound of the $300 player with the "high end" cable over the $800 player with the OEM cable. It was at this moment that I took audio cables very seriously as a "component" rather than an accessory. Literally, you could spend $500 on component upgrade and not accomplish what a cable upgrade can do for less than $100. A few years later, a guy named Bill Low came around doing "training" and cable demos. Out comes a jam box with removable speakers to use for "high end" speaker cable demos. It worked!! Even on a cheap system, you can hear a difference. This stuck with me and continues this day. We’re still an AQ dealer today. Just did a cable upgrade on a $99 digital amp. Stunning improvement!!. A nasty, gritty little amp that sounded like mono playing out of 2 speakers made bass, produced an image, and had some detail after the cable upgrade. Actually "listenable." I developed a metric over the years that I refer to as a "percentage of improvement." So, if a component/cable swap had a modest 10% improvement, then the "math" would dictate that it was worth 10% of the cost of the system. So, bang for the buck comes into play here, and there are many variables. A 30% improvement (WHAMM!!) for a 10% investment in the price of a system is a bargain, regardless of what component/cable/other was added. It’s a metric that’s worked for me for several decades. Today, we yank the OEM internal cabling out of electronics and speakers and replace them with the good stuff. We’re pretty proud of our work, but are often surprised with what we get. Yes, the "expected" sonic improvements in A, B, and C in spades occurs regularly. But, often very pronounced improvements D, E, and F. Cables matter. Cheap gear. Expensive gear. Long lengths. Short lengths.
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Cables make a difference mostly in high-resolution systems only. Thank you for bringing up LAN cables in this context. The last LAN cable leading to the streamer is the most important one and here it can make a difference. The egg story made me hungry this morning, so I'm having some just now ;-) Instead of an egg story, I would propose a comparison between two paintings - one by an eminent artist and the other, a copy. For most people, no difference. When a Monet was stolen from my local museum, the fact was discovered only after a few days. The policeman on TV reported: "The thieves cut out the canvas and put in a similar picture." ;-) |
@evillgeniuz Welcome, nice first post. Just use a larger font next time :) Bottom line is it is your $83,000 to do as you see fit, to spend on what you value, and what you perceive as a benefit to your enjoyment of your music, and therefore your life. That is the best purpose for our hard-earned money. You know the difference, and the price of admission is worth it. Why should anyone else have a problem with this?
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I've been out of the audio market 50 years, and my hearing isn't what it used to be, but I can see my 1977 vintage speaker foam surrounds are blown out, not worth repairing [again]. So while shopping speakers, wondering if I should change out the lamp cord for 'better cables.' What happened to measuring the frequency response curve, capacitance, inductance, resistance, and shielding of cables? |
So, I would like to weigh in on this conundrum. 1st off I was tired of reading reviews knowing that people who knew nothing of this, like me gladly weighed in with their opinion knowing nothing of what they speak, they just proved how stupid they were and muddied the truth to all of this. I however, recently had a unique opportunity to demo in my home, on my system, with my music, the entire Nordost Supreme line, Vahalla 2 – Odin 1 – Odin 2, power cords, interconnects, and speaker cables, and yes even had the opportunity to listen to Odin Golds the entire Gold line. Full disclosure I was one of those that believed cables made zero difference and was a total waste of money. I purchased an entire new system everything amps, pre-amps, speakers, cables, conditioners, blah blah blah. I then entered the whole conundrum myself, not wanting to have a weak link to my system, I was talked into Nordost Red Dawn cables, again power cables, interconnects, and speaker cables, along with a Nordost q- base iii, this Red Dawn investment was approximately $12,000.00. In the end other than knowing I had much superior cables from the original OEM, I gained nothing out of these cables in terms of sound improvement. The dealer and manufacture gladly took my $12K, and in return I gained nothing. I recently had a unique opportunity to demo the entire Nordost Supreme line from Vahalla 2 to Odin 1 to Odin 2 both power - interconnects, speaker cables. Once I started this laborious process, switching to Vahalla 2 power cords made an eye-opening experience I would say a 30%-40% overall sound improvement at every level possible, switching again from Vahalla 2 to Odin 1, 10% gain noticeable but not near as large of a gain, switching again from Odin 1 to Odin 2 again maybe a 5% - 10% gain over the Odin 1cables. So, what did I learn from it, power cables, is the ($$$) they can and will make a largest difference, of course all of this depends on the manufacture and their cables… interconnect cables- noticeable but very minimal 5%-10% at most. Here is the rub, I only had demo cables from Nordost Vahalla 2 - Odin 1 - Odin 2. I too wonder with all these other manufactures claiming the claims you hear, or read in the adds or reviews, would I experience the same results, more than likely the truthful answer is (I Don’t Know). The only way to know for sure is to demo them yourself on your system, in your home, with your music source you are familiar with. Many dealers have these programs. Doing so in an audio store is a loser guarantee the amps – pre-amps – digital source, or vinyl, all of what you may have in your home the equipment will be different, the speakers different, the room is totally designed for reflections and refractions, it will sound no-where near what most of us have at home. So, in the end my power cables were $12,500 per and Interconnect were $16,700 per, I have 4 power cables and 2 sets of interconnects. In the end is it worth $83,000 the truth is NO; it does not justify what these cable companies charge us for premium Supreme cables. I ended up not using any of the Supreme line speaker cables, which start at $29,999.00 and go up, it just filtered too much of what my ears liked. Can you depending on what you use, gain a sound you will never be able to acquire without cables, the answer is yes. It was worth it to me to make this investment, as the tonality gain at ever level was amazing, was it worth $83K the long and short answer is the gain does not justify the value…….the Odin 1 cables purchased were the 3rd least expensive of their supreme line and the prices to Odin 2 or Odin Golds, you will need a very large bank account with a lot of 00000 at the end of it. I hope this helps, I know there are many of you like my friends and I who just want the truth, regardless of its outcome…. I wish people who do not know would just shut up with their opinions, but that will never happen. For those of you out there who want to tell me how stupid I am for spending $83,000 save your comments, I don’t care what you think.
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I can afford any cable I want. However, I prefer well designed cables that sound great at reasonable prices. I’ve been messing about in audio since my first good sounding system in 1970 or so (KLH Model 20?), and discovered "better" cables when I tried a very early pair of twisted AQ cables maybe 35 years ago. Heard a serious improvement in my then Vandersteen 1B/Adcom system. I recently needed longer cables for my (Vastly mo bettah) rig and noticed adds for an improved version of Kimber 8PR cables to replace a pair of AQ Type 8 and Morrow SP4s, both of which sounded great. AQ Rocket 33s are also part of my "cable museum." The Kimbers sound amazingly good or I should say they don’t "sound" like anything. Just the way I like it. 500 bucks? Oh yeah...10 AWG per input leg makes them a great choice for longer runs. |
If this was a "Car Guy" forum on the subject of "Intake and Exhaust" (first started in 1955): FNDRSKURTS:: "I just took off the cast iron manifold and 2bbl Holley off the old small block and replaced them with an RPM Air Gap and 650 CFM AVSII. I can FEEL the difference in the seat of my pants!" PLDMETL: "I finally pulled the 1" single exhaust off the old '57 and installed custom headers, dual 2" exhaust and free flow mufflers. Pulls much stronger throughout, and sounds freakin' amazing!! BLEWBYYOU: You guys must be breathing in a little too much 93 octane. EVERYBODY knows that the CFM (cubic feet per minute) of air moving through an engine is determined by the displacement of the engine at a given RPM. All that fancy (AND expensive) ginger bread you bolt to those motors may change the thickness of your wallet, but have NOTHING to do with the performance of an internal combustion engine. FDNRSHURTS, what you're "feeling in the seat of your pants" is probably all that BS looking for an escape route. PDLMETL: I get it -- Loud AND Obnoxious. Looks like your inner 9-year-old wants to come out and play.
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@waytoomuchstuff ....Ah, 'The Future'...Live it or live with it.... ;) Mho is the 'Cable Conundrum' will haunt the 'philes until some means of inter/intra direct neural 'enhancement' can be inserted into ones' cranium with variables that will make us all more entrenched and argumentative as to what works 'good/better/best' into the 'next best thing' comes along..... Btw.....how many 'mic drops' does it take to ruin the mic? And from how high above the floor? Does the mfr. matter? Should mics be made to withstand impacts? If I replaced all the cables in my midst, I'd have spent more on them than everything I own to use them with. Would it make a difference? Perhaps.... If not, I'd feel I was on a fools' errand that wouldn't be very satisfying, considering that expenditure was a waste, better spent on new/used that would have. If it did, see above; left with deciding to deal with feeling I'd been better off upgrading everything else, and dumping the lot..... ...end up making minimalism look like overkill..... Ignorance isn't necessarily bliss, but selection of what you've in mind v. listening for the flaws over just enjoyment of 'where you're at' can be it's own destination.... ...however transient it may be.... |
@macg19 +2. This topic has been beaten to death. I don't care what anyone else thinks, and I don't feel the need to try to sway anyone's opinion one way or the other. Certainly not enough to argue about it.
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This is an anecdotal story re: wire, not cable, but close enough IMHO. My 'aha' moment re: wire was when I was upgrading an old Dynaco PAS 3 preamp. I had replaced all caps, resistors, power supply, volume pot and it was working fine. I had some leftover wire, so I figured while I was at it, swap out the old wire. I forget the manufacturer of the new stuff, maybe Kimber cable. It was about 20-22 gauge. Replaced the wire, turned it on, and it was awful - very muddy. So I put a few CDs on and left it over dinner. Came back and WOW. All clear from top to bottom. YMMV of course, Have I gone out and spent a fortune on cables? No, but I am careful what I buy. For me, now - Blue Jean Cables. Good price, good sound, great service. |
Inescapable FACT: No one understands exactly how electricity works. That’s why there’s so much Electrical THEORY. The number of Wiki-Scientists on these pages, attempting to win the IG-Nobel Prize in Pseudo-Physics, is always amusing. Whenever some highly educated person actually does discover exactly how electricity functions, they’ll be lauded by the scientific community, will have solved some of the disparities between Relativity and Quantum Mechanics, receive a Nobel and we’ll hear about it. Newton’s THEORIES were largely superseded by Einstein and Bohr's. Then came Feynman’s. For now; none of you can absolutely prove your statements (theories), regarding electricity, FUSES, wires, or anything else, as regards our systems. The following articles, read in sequence, illustrate my point: https://www.steamnews.org/ then: and: OF COURSE: the various popes and dopes, that make up the Church of Denin'tology, won't bother to pursue any truths regarding the above. Most simple choose to remain willfully ignorant and uninformed.* *ie: Won't bother studying anything above, let alone- to their conclusion. Typical Dunning-Kruger symptoms. Happy listening! |
Feynman was and will remain, my favorite lecturer (yeah: I'm that old). He mentioned often (and: I took to heart) his favorite Rule of Life: "Never stop learning!" For all his genius, he never grew overly confident in his beliefs. The perfect obverse to the Dunning-Kruger sufferer. ie: “I can live with doubt and uncertainty and not knowing. I think it is much more interesting to live not knowing than to have answers that might be wrong.” and: “I have approximate answers, and possible beliefs, and different degrees of certainty about different things, but I’m not absolutely sure of anything.” Tesla is probably my favorite innovator, who (despite the incessant, projectile vomit, from his day's naysayers), took the World, kicking and screaming, into the 20th century, with his inventions. His thoughts: “Anti-social behavior is a trait of intelligence in a world full of conformists.” |