I’ve been following the streaming threads here for a while now, and I find it both exhilarating and intimidating. I mean, we all know everything in high-end audio matters to some degree or another, right (Ok, maybe except for the flat earth contingent)? From what I’m reading and from my own experience the process of optimizing steaming has near unlimited potential, and some even say it rivals or even surpasses vinyl if taken to the max. Cables, routers, optical, filters, extenders, power supplies, switches, etc., they all seem to make a significant difference despite the naysayers who say bits are just bits. I’m all in on this steaming renaissance, but most of the jewels of useful info are buried in other posts, so I’d like to have this be a consolidator post of your best streaming experiences and recommendations for others who could benefit greatly from your hard-won victories and maybe save a lot of people the agony you went through to get to streaming nirvana. So have at it — let’s empower this community in this noble task and help everyone realize the amazing potential of this magic gift to audiophiles. What say you?
Started streaming in 2019 with a Bryston BDA-3.14 streamer/dac which sounded really good to me, I have no vinyl so no comparo to do.
Had some problems with rasberry Pi based streamer internal to the piece. Talked to Bryston and they (at the time) couldn't get the streamer board.
So, we agreed that I will trade-in the 3.14 for a BDA-3 brand new, zero cost to me, I mean zero, no shipping and a return label for the 3.14. That my friends is customer service.
Then purchased a Nucleus+ w/2TB drive installed.
Hardwired ethernet to Nucleus and then USB to DAC. The DAC reclocks the digital input anyway and buffers around 10 seconds of the feed.
An Apple Macbook pro running Roon. Streaming from Qobuz.
It sounds amazing to me, particularly DSDx2.
Could it be better? Sure.
I'm with @mike_in_ncon this thread, nothing really fancy going on! Audience balanced cables to ARC pre, Audience 10ga power cables on all the front end.
Regarding the “wild Wild West” digital is the exact opposite to me. Very diversified yet with a natural order to things that provides many safe shelters
I agree with this. Digital is pretty easy, and comes naturally to me. I find analog on the other hand intimidating. Cartridges, arms, belts, plates, alignments, weight, and all that... very confusing for me. It’s all about the level of comfort we all have with any audio medium, just like with everything in life. We are all different people. Let’s enjoy what we are comfortable with. There is simply no right or wrong with our choices, just preferences.
When a iFi Zen Stream has far more issues with operation and glitches than a $79 WiiM Mini streamer I think it is incumbent upon iFi to FIX their product or stop selling it to unsuspecting customers and wait until they can come out with a "MK. 2" version that works as it should.
@moonwatcherI tend to agree, but I will say I think I’m finally on to a fix and if it works I’ll be a pretty happy camper given the sound quality I’m getting for $399. And although I’m forced to use Wi-Fi now due to traveling, when I get home I’m plugging into a Wi-Fi extender via Ethernet cable, and from what I hear there’s no problem with that connection. I’m not sure this problem is unique to iFi, but that’s not much comfort and there’s absolutely no excuse for them not having phone support, which to my mind is inexcusable for a company of that size and I’m sure that’s losing them business. BTW, when I finally get this fixed I’ll do a separate post detailing the solution(s) that will hopefully help other unsuspecting victims of this nightmare.
@drbayYou’ve got a really nice system, but I think the Node is a significant bottleneck to better performance. Many people here have experienced very significant improvements moving up the chain from the Node and I think it would be a good idea to at least try a better streamer — you could buy through Amazon and just return it if you don’t find meaningfully better sound. In your case I’d highly recommend looking at the Innuos Zen or Zenith (depending on budget) as they’re not only excellent streamers, but their Sense software is widely reported to sound fantastic. And as a huge bonus they have a built-in server and disc drive so you can load all your CDs into it, ditch the CD player altogether (although you would need to add a DAC), and have access to all your music from your chair — plus your CDs may even sound better than through your CD player as well. Anyway, just my $0.02 FWIW.
Regarding the “wild Wild West” digital is the exact opposite to me. Very diversified yet with a natural order to things that provides many safe shelters
Now if the topic were modern day gun violence in the US, the wild Wild West would be an appropriate analogy. But that’s something to discuss and take a stand on elsewhere. If hifi were in fact like that, I would probably find a new hobby.
Hey tinkering can be fun. I’m an engineer so I tinker all the time if there is a problem. Even if not sometimes, just for fun or to try something different. No end to the variety of good sounds out there for one to experience.
@mapmanbees knees! Copacetic daddy-oh. Made me smile.
You are right that many of the tweaks can be expensive and have incremental gains or ersatz ones. Non the less, I’ve found that taken all toughener it’s audible (how can blacker be audible?) for me. And many many many audiophiles love to tinker. I do. This forum is a gateway to getting equipment. N’est-ce pas, mes amis? Every thing counds better in french. The word for digital is numérique. Numérique. Oh lah lah.
Noise isn’t your systems friend be it from power or signal. Nothing wrong with going after it. For me the EtherREGEN was a stunner. Did I need the linear power, clock and fancy cables for it? Do cell phones need signal bars?
No, bits are not just bits, however, the OPs premise is flawed.
Digital is much easier, more productive, and more affordable to do well these days than vinyl. Digital done right/well (readily available out of the can these days)is the bees knees. Vinyl has some unique benefits, mostly due to the beefed up physical packaging often provided for a cost these days, but is a flawed though enduring century old technology at its core. Also, regardless of how physically delivered, digital mastering of recordings rules.
This is bad news for some who traditionally bank on selling costly esoteric tweaks to home consumers for a living. Not a business I would want to be in these days.
It’s not hard to buy very good digital gear out of the can that will thrill most people including most audio enthusiasts (save perhaps a few hardcore "audiophiles" who can never take a break from trying to forge ahead) for reasonable cost. You just have to make educated and practical purchase decisions, then still get the setup right (as always). No need to over-think or over-complicate things..which is good news for all!
Those digital related tweaks mentioned are not slam dunks as indicated.....some may help in some cases but the overall value for most is minimal, although some always seeking to try and do one better may still feel inclined to dabble and strike gold....but only if they really know what they are doing......not if they have to rely on sellers to tell them what they should buy.
@factenI use Bluesound, Denafrips Terminator Plus, Hegel 590, Wilson Sasha DAW. I am very happy. I have CD transport for CDs I owned for 30 years. Sound quality almost the same, very satisfying. Point is, no matter what your budget is, there is digital streaming system that can outperform a vinyl or CD listening experience. It is hard to beat top notch DACs with an invention from early 19th century. If you go to Chord Dave, dCS Vivaldi Apex, dCS Rossini, Weiss 501, presentation will beat any analog alternative.
When a iFi Zen Stream has far more issues with operation and glitches than a $79 WiiM Mini streamer I think it is incumbent upon iFi to FIX their product or stop selling it to unsuspecting customers and wait until they can come out with a "MK. 2" version that works as it should.
I keep looking at a Bluesound Node, but hate paying for a DAC I'll never use, even at the $600 price point. Might look at the new Musical Fidelity MX - Stream as a solution in my budget for a streamer and the Denafrips Ares II as the DAC and call it a day.
But the Ares II has been on the market now for a good while. Should I wait and see if any other DAC in the $1000 range would be better?
@soixThere is rep from Ifi who regularly contributes on headfi forum. I'd PM him at that forum, goes under moniker, IFIAudio.
I'd add vinyl is pretty much on par with streaming for complications or lack thereof. Streaming is different in that far more experimentation taking place at present, less mature technology.
Very astute observation by @blisshifiper ubs preferable when dac clock superior, aes, coax if streamer/server superior clock. I'm expecting to explore this very thing with upcoming server/streamer audtions/purchases. Custom server in midst of being built and an off the shelf server will both have great adaptability in allowing all the above comparisons and additionally I2S, also ability for Roon and/or proprietary music software/player.
You completely missed the point of my post. I have no qualms about how anyone choose to spend their money or their personal preferences / priorities for vinyl or digital.
That’s sad but expected at those bargain bin prices. That’s why it’s just as important to select a streamer / server that provides a good customer service support with a robust OS.
@lalitkPoint taken. Unfortunately budget largely dictated my choice, and I assumed a company the size of iFi would have at least some form of phone support. I’ll definitely not make that painful mistake again. Were I doing it over I probably would’ve bought a used Innuos Mini Mk3 and added their upgraded power supply later, and I would’ve had a server and been able to ditch my CD transport altogether as a bonus. Live and learn I guess. My takeaway — some things are just worth paying for.
Sure vinyl is simple but good to great vinyl requires a lot of parts too and that isn’t inexpensive. No it ain’t! We all know that list and what the ensuring costs are.(And what’s Beethoven’s fifth with out the ticks and pops?)
Great digital can be had “reasonably.” For $2200 on up you can get a used Lumin T2 or Mytek Brooklyn Bridge Network both with very good inboard DAC’s and the ability to connect directly to an amp with no pre amp needed. Compared to a vinyl rig or upper CD/SCAD this is far far cheaper. To tweak it up, linear power supplies and ethernet filleting can be used (and Bam!) but this is assuming all the rest such as your room, amp and pre or integrated, connects, power cleaned, speakers and the whole schmear is stellar. Digital steaming equaling vinyl costs less too. And yes Virginia, CD’s are digital just delivered on a player.
Vinyl does give one more exercise as you have to get off your duff a lot more.
There are also some all in one solutions like the Naim Uniti boxes that are good.
@ghdprentice Yes Digital into tubes. Right on brother!
It’s all about choices!
You Go To Your Church
You go to your church and I’ll go to mine
But let’s walk along together
Our fathers built them side by side
So let’s walk along together
The road is rough and the way is long
But we’ll help each other over
You go to your church and I’ll go to mine
But let’s walk along together
You go to your church and I’ll go to mine
But let’s walk along together
Our Heavenly Father is the same
So let’s walk along together
The Lord will be at your church today
But he’ll be at my church also
You go to your church and I’ll go to mine
But let’s walk along together
by Phillips H. Lord
Please don’t talk about me when I’m gone
Please don’t talk about me when I’m gone
Oh honey, though our friendship ceases from now on
And listen, if you can’t say anything real nice
It’s better not to talk at all is my advice
We’re parting, you go your way I’ll go mine
It’s best that we do
Here’s a kiss I hope that this brings lots of luck to you
Oh makes no difference how I carry on
Remember, please don’t talk about me when I’m gone
We’re parting, you go your way I’ll go mine
It’s best that we do
Here’s a kiss I hope that this brings lots of luck to you
@juanmanuelfangioiiMy takeaway from lalitk’ post was that he was simply suggesting that holmz experience with vinyl was in reality no less involved than what he and others have stated about their digital setups
@drbay"A good streamer with a good external DAC would beat any vinyl or CD at any price point."
What streamer and DAC are you using and what were the CD and vinyl equipment you compared it to in the same system that allowed you to arrive at this de facto conclusion?
Personally, I recently had the opportunity to audition vinyl, CD and DAC with separate streamer in the same system. Speakers were Cessaro Horns, New Audio Frontiers amplification , vinyl TW Acustics , CD Neodio, DAC Tron Electric GT, streamer Aurrender. I’m not a vinyl guy but I gave the edge to the TW Acustics versus the Neodio and the Tron/Aurrender combo. It wasn’t a night and day level difference but it was there. As far as the Neodio and the Tron/Aurrender combination there was no "winner" they were both very engaging, no losing propositions , and simply a matter of sound taste preference - Neodio smoother, more romantic; the Tron/Aurrender leaning somewhat more towards transparency. The Neodio was my preference. Would there have been different outcomes with different gear, always possible. My point being I don’t think there’s a de facto statement that can be made about any of this.
In reply to "No Power COnditioners" I must say, If you aren't running off of a battery then how are you stabilizing your Trun Tables motor? I know of one guy that has a table with three separate digital motors sank and is controlled via a computer. You can go as far as you want with any tech. just because vinal is Analogue doesn't mean it is free of voltage variations and current surges, power insufficiency, and any lack of overall control needs.
Having a really good DAC helps enormously. In my case it's an Esoteric N-01XD.
The N-01 is clocked with a Cybershaft OP21.
I mostly use it via Roon fed from my custom PC fitted with a JCAT USB Card XE and which is hardwired to my router. (A big improvement over wi-fi in my situation).
I occasionally play files directly into the N01 via memory stick. This requires the Esoteric App which is not great to be honest so I stick with Roon for most of my listening.
That combination delivers excellent sound quality - comparable to CD played from an Esoteric K-01XD on 44/16 files and better on true 24/96 files.
Regarding the above post, I think the point the original poster was making was that vinyl didn't/doesn't require any of the bulleted items.
That’s sad but expected at those bargain bin prices. That’s why it’s just as important to select a streamer / server that provides a good customer service support with a robust OS. It’s all part of the experience and many folks failed to see that when they think why pay for $2K streamer when I can get something for $500 or less.
@rbstehno But what about the hardware of the streamer/server? The software is only a small part of any streamer’s sound quality. Also, I would say that I have heard bigger improvements at times upgrading streamers/servers vs upgrading DACs. A high performance digital source is the only way digital can ever sound as natural, organic and resolving as the best analog sources.
Also, the cable used largely depends on the clocking of the system. If the DAC has a better clock than the streamer/server, use USB. But if the source has a better clock, use AES or Coax. Many people don’t realize how these different cables utilize the clocks of different components, and I’m happy to expand further on that as well as on master clocks if needed.
Not sure what the new big deal about streaming is. I’ve been using streaming/audio servers for 15 years. Sold my $3000 Classe CD player 13 years ago because ripped music sounded better. It’s mostly been about the software that has been driving this. Amarra, Pure Music, Audirvana, lightning DS, and now Roon. Besides software, the dac is the most important piece of equipment to spend your money on. If people are using usb to the dac, then you really haven’t heard good digital sound.
Any source other than digital streaming is just nostalgia. A good streamer with a good external DAC would beat any vinyl or CD at any price point. If you are claiming otherwise you are not living in reality, that is just admiration to nostalgia. Collecting CD or Vinyl is sort of useless fool’s errand. When you have access to 30 million songs, what is the point of accumulating physical Vinyl or CD etc. Young generations will not have luxury of having big houses and listening rooms. Speaker technology is advancing very rapidly, bookshelf speakers are becoming extremely good. Devialet for example has great product for younger generation. Our 200 lbs speakers will turn to relics of past or collectible items. Digital is future, adopt and move on.
Sounds like a lot of hot wind from someone who's using motivated reasoning to justify the cash he's poured into his system. Otherwise, why the white hot put down instead of just stating what you prefer?
30 million songs at my fingertips and I can care less for about 29,999,000 of what's out there and worrying and fretting about the size of some future generations room size? You should write copy for streaming services.
As for myself, I only listen for my listening pleasure and could care less how others do theirs. Not here to impress others, but simply to share.
There are two long running threads on Headfi involving the Zen Stream with many helpful people that are both long time users and tech savvy in terms of it's operation and the software. Once of the thread involves setup and reset procedures for the unit. An iFi employee also participates in both threads. You might find it helpful to go the the tips and tricks thread and follow the procedure for doing a full factory reset before switching from WiFi to hardwire. That way you start with a clean slate.
My conclusion after buying streamers and testing them is that the USBridge Signature with Shanti PS is awesome in it's price range. Innuous Zenith MKII ended up in my system.
Those of you eschewing this technology will eventually wish you'd done it sooner. $5K for a streamer and $10K for a DAC (might even be less) is not a lot compared to other components.
Yes, at first I did the same thing, running around to disconnect the router for 5 minutes, and the extender and the bluesound, as was recommended and it was a waste of time and really didn't even work. Uninstall and reinstall app can be done in a couple minutes from your chair and always worked. You are welcome, you helped me in the past too.
@baylinor Thanks a lot for the tip of uninstalling the app to get it to recognize the streamer again. I didn’t think of that, and all the suggestions I got involved rebooting everything starting with the router, but I’m traveling so that’s not an option right now. I do have a TP-Link AC2600 and a Wireworld Starlight 8 Ethernet cable so once I get home I’ll be going hardwired from that and hopefully that’ll be the end of this digital horror show. Argh.
BTW, using the DAC in the bluesound renders the Teddy Pardo LPS useless. At least that's what I've been told. I am using the Gustard x26 pro DAC instead.
I started with a Bluesound as it was simple to set up, had plenty of features, good software that was easy to use, included a decent DAC, and was inexpensive compared to other solutions. Once I better understood streaming and what I really wanted to do, I got an Aurrender and a high end DAC. Sold the Bluesound for a decent price easily. So I agree with @ghdprentice. Just sharing my journey.
Any source other than digital streaming is just nostalgia. A good streamer with a good external DAC would beat any vinyl or CD at any price point. If you are claiming otherwise you are not living in reality, that is just admiration to nostalgia. Collecting CD or Vinyl is sort of useless fool’s errand. When you have access to 30 million songs, what is the point of accumulating physical Vinyl or CD etc. Young generations will not have luxury of having big houses and listening rooms. Speaker technology is advancing very rapidly, bookshelf speakers are becoming extremely good. Devialet for example has great product for younger generation. Our 200 lbs speakers will turn to relics of past or collectible items. Digital is future, adopt and move on.
My digital streaming journey started in 2018 and in that relatively short amount of time there have surfaced many different ways to set up and optimize the signal. I'm on board with helping to identify which solution helps with individual goals and preferences. One approach could and should start with how much are you willing to spend as a beginner, intermediate, advanced or money is not a barrier hobbyist. Will you want continuous improvement buying better products over time or is this a one and done (if only it was that easy for audiophiles)? Then start unfolding options and identifying differences and SQ questions for tubes or SS, hard wired or wifi, will it be part of a HT system as a casual listening option or a two channel dedicated listening system. (Took me awhile in the beginning of my journey to turn my opinion on making a HT system capable of 2 channel HiFi. I admit I was stubbornly wrong. Never again will those thoughts return. Instead I now have a nice switch for AV inputs that carries the music signal on spdif then inputs into my dac for watching video with 2 channel. Works for me).
For me another important answer is how resolving is your system or do you plan to make it? This would have saved me an incredible amount of time and money. I have a large box of products that didn't work out. A graveyard of cables, switches, solutions for most here that did nothing in my system. I even have a couple of streamers in that box. I'm not claiming that upgrades for noise, jitter, cable quality, switches, etc. don't make a difference because they have clearly helped so many here but I've concluded my system resolution must reside below a threshold where some products make a difference.
I only stream these days. Streaming Qobuz through Roon mostly because of it's simplicity but to me it also sounds good. Before using Roon I streamed straight from Qobuz which also sounds good. I have HQ Player and don't use it because I do not have a library of digital music. I have no need for a music server/storage device. Turntable is back in the box and vinyl sits on the shelf. The frustrating part is I want a streamer only that is better than my iMac and have trialed several now (latest was an A10 borrowed from a neighbor) without finding a SQ improvement, differences yes but not better. I am exhausted with this upgrade pursuit for now and will set aside finding a streamer for the next couple of years to see what new products/solutions the market brings.
Most of the commotion in streaming is with getting a clean signal from your wifi router to your streamer and then to your DAC. If you want to experiment with switches, optical cables, etc., go ahead, it can be done cheaply. But if you don’t want to fool with that stuff just enjoy what you have (always a good idea) and wait for someone to come up with an easy and cheap solution. It will happen.
Hard to believe I've been streaming over 10 years now! Started with a Squeezebox Duet that seemed like the greatest thing since sliced bread then Sonos and finally my Auralic Aries Mini. The learning curve in the early days was steep, particularly adding a NAS, but looking back I can't believe how easy it all actually was.
It was easier with vinyl, as non of that extra multi-$1k increments were needed.
No power conditioners
Maybe turntables don't need power conditioners per se, even if preamps and amps do, although they are certainly best with ripple free DC so there's no AC to contaminate to the low level signal.
You bring up a good point. A high end integrated can surpass mid-range separates, very true.
Each companies product lines are: Flagship = two box single function (like DAC, amp, or preamp), first level down… single box function, next level down… integrated of two functions… etc.
Why? Sharing space, power supplies, and functions compromises the performance. Also, upgrading… means the whole box when integrated… unless with swapable circuit boards (a huge sound compromise).
For folks that have limited funds (+95%) of audiophiles, every purchase is a compromise, with the expectation of an upgrade in the future. So, individual boxes at the highest level affordable is the way to go. Slowly and incrementally build a better system over time.
The big expensive integrated components are mostly for really well healed folks that want great sound and want it hidden and would never dedicate the thousands of hours over out lifetime an audiophile will to appreciate and assemble a system to cater to their desire for great sound.
I myself bought an ifi zen and ended up returning it within a couple weeks. It was so freaking difficult connecting to it with my android phone, I gave up. Glad to hear connecting it with a computer works for you. Anyway bought a bluesound NODE instead and I am not looking back. The bluos app works easily on android and the wifi signal is super strong in my house of stereo with a tp-link wifi extender. One thing I learned is using it strictly over wifi caused the bluos app not to recognize the bluesound player pretty much every day. So I would have to uninstall and reinstall the bluos app and it would recognize it again. Finally tried a bluejeans ethernet cable to connect the bluesound to the extender and it completely remedied the problem. Recognizes the blue sound immediately every time. Also just got the Teddy Pardo linear power supply specifically made for the bluesound, definite upgrade in clarity and space. Using a shunyata venom 14 pc for it. The rest of my connections is clearly laid out in my system. The things I feel I will not invest in is ethernet filters or any other kind of boxes before the streamer as the blackness is as good as with my Jay's cd player. There is absolutely zero interference in the signal. Probably the isolation of the house of stereo from the main house. Or just lucky. Anyway, just like you I am totally embracing the streaming technology, who knew.
For anyone who is feeling like it’s the Wild West and have confusion about certain aspects of digital, please always feel free to call or PM me with questions. I’m happy to chat without any pressure of making a sale. I have first hand experience with dozens of DACs, Streamer/servers, cables, switches, etc. I also have a background in technology and am still a technology consultant working for General Motors to date, so my understanding of hardware and software, connectivity, etc is pretty high.
I am now at a place where my reference digital surpasses the performance of my vinyl rig in about 90% of music. There are still some special pressings I prefer on vinyl.
I'm with @mike_in_nc."best" is not the object, musical enjoyment is. The choice of musical program makes far more difference than any "system enhancements." He might find more refinement with better power supplies but no "need" for him to look.
Not surprised that an honest digital post here is overrun with 'phobes' from the 80's days of raw digital.
Just started streaming a couple of months ago. Bought a New Node and it wasn’t right and returned it. Got a second one and it works well. Last week had some issues with BluOS and the customer service was pretty good. They responded fairly quickly and took responsibility for the problem and emailed when it was fixed. I have no complaints with BlueSound, however I feel they are but a gateway drug for upgradeitis.
Good point Ron, I didn't think of it from that point. I was looking from the "junk" perspective. As I can't remove a built in dac the the current flows thru it, if I add on an outboard unit the current flows thru 2 dacs, everything in the signal path has an effect on the signal. Seems like additional "clutter"? It would seem that the best way would be individual standalone single function devices but that would require a wall of components, an end to end row of plug ins and miles of cable. So much for plugging a cd player into an amp to minimize signal degradation 🤣?
Most people think a stand alone DAC is better but I think it depends on the level of the component the DAC is in. The DAC in my Boulder 866 is fantastic. The one thing the stand alone does is let you try different ones until you find one that sounds best to you.
I am hardwired in, so much faster and morecrelisblecthan wifi. I also have a dac in my amp thru the optical or digital plugs. Is a standalone sac significantly better than the built in ones?
Streaming not need to be difficult. Think of it this way:
Turntable —> Phonostage —> Preamp
Streamer —> DAC —> Preamp
The two analogous.
No management software is required. Buy a Aurrender, Aurlic, Lumin, or budget Bluesound streamer. The first three higher quality.
If you really just want a simple solution you can get a Streamer / DAC. Although future upgrades will be harder. I recommend Aurrender. I have two after trying others. Plunk it down, connect. Download the app and start streaming. If you are not close to your router… just buy a wall wart wifi extender… plug it in next to your system and plug that in to your streamer… it will just work.
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