What do you consider "reasonable"?
XLR cables for a reasonable price?
I've seen lots of threads where it is stated that balanced components are "insensitive" to cables. Does this mean that spending a lot of money on XLR cables is probably unnecessary, as it offers no sonic benefit over cheaper XLR cables?
I would like some recommendations on reasonably priced XLR cables that give excellent sonic performance. Thanks for your replies.
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@rja $100 for a 1 meter pair. |
@rja The price Benchmark charges, or less. |
“…balanced components are "insensitive" to cables…”
This is absolutely false. Single ended or balanced the first most important thing is the quality of the wire. How much this affects the sound quality depends on your components. In general consumer products, not at all, budget components most likely not, good components, yes to varying degrees.. audiophile, absolutely… very substantially. That is a generalization… and fairly reliable. But I know a couple instances where budget components were tremendously improved with good cables.
In general, when buying from well established companies the higher the cost the better quality and greater impact. One way not to not get off on the right foot would be to compare really cheap cables. Typical recommendations are to spend about 10% of the component cost. There is one more dimension to cables… the sound character. Different companies have different basic sound characteristics… Cardas are a bit warm (can help systems sound more musical)… which can mask deficiencies in your components… they get less warm as you go up in levels and more clear. Transparent are… exactly that transparent and they get quieter and more so as you go up in price. One thing to note is that XLR are a bit louder… it is easy to mistake this for clarity, so you must equalize the sound level to correctly compare sound characteristics.
The important thing is the wire and synergy with your components… which is nearly impossible to predict. Best to try them. The Cable company has a way to let you try a number of different ones. Used cables go for half price… great way to go. Also, XLR tend to cost a lot more. XLR are best used (although they do not always sound better) on components that have an internally balanced design. Otherwise there is a conversion being done to the XLR sockets and then back again in the next component. So to be helpful, we really need to know your system. There is a place to put some photos and ID components under your ID… virtual systems. You can see mine under my virtual systems. |
Blue Jean. Nothing special as in not magic. Just a good cable. FWIW, unless you have transformer outputs, your XLR outputs are not balanced. Close and good enough but not balanced. Parts tolerances and just plain old Physics. If running over about 3M, I would use them though even with their much higher capacitance than good coax. If you want to really understand this topic, I would refer you to the Jensen transformer white papers. XLR to RCA is not too bad, but RCA feeding XLR is going to give a gain miss-match causing maybe higher noise. Many of the adapters are made incorrectly so be careful. SOME XLR is louder, some RCA is louder. This is where we have some issues with specs. I thought XLR was pretty well-defined in the professional industry but it seems a lot of consumer products do not follow those specs. Seems they don't even respect the 600 Ohms spec. In consumer it varies from 10 to 50K. That is one of the specs you may trust from ASR. All that may make interconnect parameters matter more as big differences in current. |
“Excellent sonic performance” doesn’t really help as we all hear and value certain sonic traits differently. What specific sonic characteristics are you looking for, what are you using now, and what improvements would you like to achieve? This critical info will get you much better recommendations more targeted to your specific tastes. |
I have had my XLR cables made up by ProAudioLA (a pro-audio shop in Los Angeles) for years now. You can have them made with Neutrik XLRs and Mogami W2549 cable and will be hard pressed to get better results than that. Similar cables are now sold on Amazon by a firm called "World’s Best Cables." I prefer ProAudioLA, as I can have the cables made to the exact length needed, with the exact color-coding needed, and I'm supporting a local small business. Whatever you do, I hope you have a ball! P.S. Because I use long XLR interconnects, I was only able to get one (well-known) audiophile manufacturer to let me try their cables. They were noticeably colored compared to much cheaper ones from ProAudioLA. So I saved about $1,400 on that pair. |
@soix Currently, I am using a Primaluna integrated tube amp. However, I am transitioning to a fully balanced system, with Atma-Sphere MP-3.3 preamp and Atma-Sphere Class D amps. Just wondering if it is necessary to buy ultra-expensive XLR interconnects to get the most out these components. My speakers are Acoustic Zen Crescendo Mk II.
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What a great system! Congrats!!! I’ve heard Ralph @atmasphere say here many times that if components follow the “balanced standard” (that I think he may have a patent for) the differences between interconnects becomes basically nonexistent and take him at his word. Hopefully he’ll chime in here for the final word/recommendations. If true as advertised you could potentially save a bundle on wires, and wouldn’t that be a nice little bonus? |
Love absolutes..... oft absolutely wrong, or at least misleading. @jeffreyw referred to the Mogami XLR, they show up here for sale regularly and are terrific for not much money. These things depend on several variables, but for not much coin you can experiment. Those Mogamis bested my Wire World Eclipse Silver 8 RCA > XLR in their application. When I got Mogamis with XLR both ends it all changed. Best of luck on your journey. |
@hifinut51 Wrote:
Maybe the article below can help you decided: 😎 Mike |
@hifinut51 I have the A-S MP3 and S30 in one of my systems. Class D being delivered tomorrow 😁 I use Cardas Clear or Clear Beyond cables everywhere except preamp to amp. There I use Mogami XLR made by 10 Audio. I’ve tried Cardas between the pre and amp but think the Mogami sound just as good. Quite frankly there is no difference between the two. Will also try with the Class D but based on what Atma-Sphere and my dealer say, I’m expecting the same results. Try it for yourself. The cables are very inexpensive and it’s the only way you’ll be a believer. It was for me. It’s a very nice savings to put to better use somewhere else in your system. |
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Start with reasonably priced XLR cables, Mogami Gold from Amazon, or maybe Blue Jeans Cables that use either Belden or Canare wire and then listen and decide whether your choice sounds good to you. |
XLRs are great connectors - I've soldered up hundreds over my career and still have a few now-vintage US made Switchcraft pieces in storage. However, unless you have a true balanced system, they are an expensive vanity. Properly used, as the Atma-Sphere paper (well-written IMHO) describes, they are superior without question. Problem is the vast majority of hifi equipment isn't balanced. It's single-ended, and not intended to drive more than 3M or so of high impedance load, not 30M of low impedance. Also balanced cables are not 'louder' they are passive and incapable of adding gain. The equipment with which they are used may have different gain structures which could lead someone to that conclusion, however. |
The balanced line standard often comes up here when discussing XLR cables. Here is the standard and here is an article by Rane that provides additional context. Also, see Chapter 3 of this article by Bill Whitlock, of Jensen Transformers, Inc. on balanced audio interfaces. The balanced line standard covers grounding of balanced lines but not the 600-ohm thing that sometimes enters these discussions. The 600-ohms was for POTS (Plain Old Telephone Service) for which maximizing power transfer by matching output and input impedances was an important consideration. With home audio gear, almost everything has a low output impedance and high input impedance so the cable characteristic impedance is not an issue, unless you are running cables for tens of miles. |
https://ravenaudio.com/product/xlr-interconnect-cables/
They sound very good and look exceptional. I tested each category of interconnect and cables that they make and there is huge bang for the buck.
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I feel your pain. I have purchased Morrow, and Audioquest XLR interconnects at what I consider a tidy sum- over $1000 for 1 meter of the aforementioned. For me this took the fun out of it. It’s copper wire for pete’s sake. When I elected to tri-amp my Bryston model Ts I wanted the woofer amps close to the towers. That meant one interconnect needed to be 20’ long and the other 5’ long. I began to shop new and used - with great frustration and overwhelming costs. I trust PS Audio and gambled that I could follow their DiY cable instructions and see for myself whether I had blown $300 for nothing or not. I compared the DiY set I built myself with the Audioquest and Morrows I already owned- swapping L&R and lengths, isolation and careful listening. My conclusion is this: If I had Elon’s money I’d blow 10k on cables and the beautiful wood presentation boxes. Since I’m a poor Surgery guy I actually have to make and follow a budget. My tests concluded thusly: My 61 year old ears (which I have had tested) could not tell a difference between my Morrow, Audioquest and DiY cables. The next obvious question is what did I connect? My source is a PS Audio Direct Stream Mk I DAC/Streamer into an Audio Research SP15 to an Audio Research VT 130 tube amp driving the mids and tweeters and 2 Bryston 7BSST 700w monoblocks driving the 6 woofers in my Bryston Model Ts. This is a decent rig in my price range that “plays well together”. Maybe for an additional $100k in gear I could discern the difference in cables- but for now I have $300 in 2 pairs of XLRs that Morrow wanted almost $2000 for. Good enough for me! |
@hifinut51 I just picked up my Atma's class D's yesterday. They're absolutely fantastic. Literally zero heat and exactly what I wanted. Turned them on and they sound great right out of the box. I'm also eyeing the MP3.3, apparently the dealer mentioned the MP3 will absolutely blow away my Primaluna Dialogue Premium Pre. So I'm placing an order in a few weeks as apparently they take a few months to get in. |
I'm a Benchmark fanboi for sure but it's taken me a lot of years to arrive here, so take that for what it's worth. My DAC3 HGC and AHB2 combo is the best combo I've ever had and the thing that stands out is the astounding S/N ratio, achieved through proper gain structure, shielding, clever power supply's, etc, and cabling is part of that program as well. In my pro career balanced was the norm, and we'd usually use a DI box to include unbalanced sources, but inputs to the consoles were always balanced, so I was nodding my head at the tech info on the Benchmark site concerning Star-Quad topology. You can't go wrong with Canare or Mogami 4-conductor cable, with a slight edge, IMO, going to Canare for a touch better EMI/RFi rejection. Get you some quality cables and don't look back.
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Just received my Atma-Sphere Class D amps. They’re fantastic right out of the box but I won’t dwell on that since there are enough Class D battles (threads) going on. Already tried my $2,000 Cardas Clear XLR cables and my $100 Mogami XLR cables between the Class D amps and MP3 preamp. SQ is the same with either cable. As I said above, put your money to better use somewhere else in your system. |
Amps just came in today so much too soon to evaluate them other than like I already said they sound real good right out of the box. I actually bought them as summer amps to replace my Atma-Sphere OTL amp when it gets too hot at my beach house. So I have plenty of time to break them in before next summer 😎. Your right, as I already mentioned in another thread, I sold all my analog gear and now using strictly digital as my source. But it’s pretty good stuff ( Aurender N200 and Denafrips Terminator Plus DAC) so quite frankly I’m not missing playing records one bit. Regarding the cables I think the answer to your question is neither. With the fully balanced preamp and amplifier combination, the XLR interconnects just do not make a difference. It’s not a question of one sounding better or worse than the other or the price of the cables, they just sound the same, at least to me, and from what I understand many other people as well. I’m basically a Cardas guy. Just love their cables after trying many other brands. They continue to give me the flavor I like and while not cheap, imo are worth it. I use their Clear or Clear Beyond for power cords, speaker cables, usb and interconnects. Everywhere but the connection between A-S preamp and amp. I even use Clear RCA’s when I put in my single ended Conrad Johnson amp where there is a definite improvement over the Mogami RCA interconnects. So the only thing I can conclude, and as Ralph Karsten continues to preach, when using balanced interconnects between a fully balanced preamp and amp the interconnects do not make a difference. Go figure. |
Yes, I heard it from Ralph and some others. Usually, Mogami is what these people use. This is good because you don't have to think much about cables, it can be a real pain, not to mention cost. I only use Wywires Diamond and various Purist cables, so far don't seem to need to experiment more. I would like to try Japanese Hijiri cables, though, as recommended by Audiogon member, but can't find them used. |
I have finally settled on these XLR’s which connect a Holo Audio May to a Primaluna EVO 400 pre and also connect the Primaluna pre to an EVO 400 power amp. They are very clean and not overly sharp. The gold/silver alloy has the best sonic balance I have yet heard in an interconnect They do take awhile to burn in. I also use Anticables Level 3 power cords throughout the system. Their power cords are probably what the company is best known for. |
@ghdprentice I feel compelled to correct some misinformation in your post. As you might have gathered from other's posts here so far, your first paragraph is not correct. The construction of the cable matters in a balanced cable, but that construction is simple (twisted pair inside a shield) and need not be expensive. It doesn't even seem to matter if the materials are high quality- if your equipment supports the balanced standards. I've used ancient balanced cables in my system and other's, compared right beside cables that cost $1000/foot and heard no difference between them. If your equipment is balanced but does not support the standard then that benefit of cable neutrality seems to be eroded! Think about balanced lines as a system that allows you to vastly reduce or eliminate cable problems, rather than just throwing money at it as happens with single-ended cables. Your second sentence is a good example of the Veblen Effect; the idea that just because its more expensive it will also be better. With balanced lines, if you support the standard, this isn't true. I refer you to other's posts in this thread. In your third paragraph, if I can point something out: Being able to hear differences in cables isn't a good thing. Its good that you have a system of revealing character that can delineate such things as cables, but consider that exactly such a system might also be able to show you that cables can sound exactly the same (if the equipment supports the balanced standard). The reason hearing cable differences isn't good is simple. I'm pretty sure no-one has every compared side by side all the interconnect cables available; there seem to be hundreds if not thousands of cable manufacturers- usually comparing cables you might have 3 or 4 at best. So which one is right?? The actual answer is 'none of them are'. This is for a very simple reason! Let's say you chose the best of all the cables in your audition. The problem is, next year that cable manufacturer will have a better cable (maybe more money too) and if he doesn't, someone else will. We all know this to be a fact. What the balanced line system does for you is it allows you to get off that white elephant (because what sort of money are you going to get out of a set of used cables) merry go round. You can buy a set of inexpensive cables and they'll sound just as good as an expensive set. I see cable interaction as a hidden cost of single-ended products on this account; if you're running a single ended system you'll have no choice but to audition cables. Now to your last paragraph. If the balanced line equipment is supporting the standard, the signal level will be exactly the same between balanced and single-ended. Think of an output transformer driving the balanced line- with one end of the winding on pin2 of the XLR and other end of the winding on pin3. Now if you tied pin3 to pin1 (ground) you'd have a single-ended output, but the actual voltage produced would be exactly the same. Most balanced equipment that does not support the standard has two single-ended outputs, each referencing ground, out of phase with the other. In this case, if you go from single-ended to balanced, you'll get a 6dB increase. But in this setup, ground is referenced so its not supporting the standard (AES48). Do you see the distinction?
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@atmasphere Thanks for joining the conversation!! |
All XLR cables sound the same? A fantasy that we all wish were true. I thought that based on a lot of talk on these forums until I started trying out some different XLR's in my system. Then I bought some of the top of the line Purist Audio Design cables to go between my preamp and amps. None of that cheap $100/ft stuff. These cables cost much more than that- $500/ft and you won't pry these cables out of my hands. The difference in sound is startling. The soundstage is totally black. I thought it was quiet before but not like this. The bass came alive. Night and day difference in the bass. And the highs are so creamy good. When I hear cymbals I just want to hug myself. I could go on; but I won't. High priced, yes but high satisfaction. Everything matters. |
I appreciate your long and sometimes technical discussion of why diffferent XLR interconnects don’t and shouldn’t matter. Sounds like you have an electrical engineering background. My generalizations come from listening to a number of high quality components and comparing the sound quality output. The results I have experience are exactly like speaker cables, other interconnects, power cords and Ethernet and USB cables… they sound different when comparing on medium or high quality electronics. Typically better quality ones sound better… but subject the variability of the particular system. Standards are useful… but typically are suboptimal for high performance anything… high end design engineers are aware of them, and if they do not follow them, it is usually because they get in the way of performance or funtionality. I really wish I could use cheap XLR interconnects and not take a hit to sonic performance. Each new generation of connection… USB and Ethernet for instance has been the hope that this time it will not matter. Darn if it always does. |
