Would you buy a tube amp if you were unable to use vintage tubes in it ?

I would say there is no substitute for great design. In simple inexpensive amps perhaps the tube can get you somewhere better and more sophisticated. But for carefully designed high end amps, the tubes are chosen for availability and general character and then the rest of the component is designed to achieve a very specific sound. The goal is the specific sound characteristics… and all the components are chosen to achieve it. I am certain this is how companies like VAC, Conrad Johnson, and Audio Resesrch create their components. I have heard an interview here and there that supports this as well as worked with high end audio engineers. So you can change their sound… but typically the sound quality is balanced on a knife edge between a number of characteristics and it’s only likely to be different but unlikely to be more sophisticated. 

I have a tube integrated and an all tube phono stage.  The integrated uses 3 JJ 12au7s in the gain and driver stage and a quad of unidentifiable 6L6GCs in the power output stage. The only identifying features I can see through the vents on the top are the plates and the bases of which there is no silk screening on either. What I can see suggests maybe German made TAD but their catalog example has a red base wherein the amp's are black or a Psvane that has the same plate structure and a black base. A more definitive identification might be possible if I could see the getters. Either way Luxman says nothing about tube life other than that the implementation promotes reliability and long tube life and that Mickying with them in any way voids the tubes 3-year warranty. So, I can only go with that.

My phono stage on the other hand is the manufacturers special addition which incorporates Genelex Gold Lion 12ax7LPS/B759s with Mundorf silver, gold and oil capacitors with Teflon coated, silver plated wire point to point. I don't think it can be tricked out any better than this and you should hear it!

Further I think all the suggestions regarding tube "rolling" is a little insane simply because you can't demo duplicate copies of your equipment side by side to make a definitive judgement and going through all the trouble of re-biasing and warming the amps up to their fullest potential leaves you without any subjective means of judging the sound differences because your brain forgot what it heard the second you stopped listening to the previous set of tubes. What a crock!

  Sorry but I have to call BS that tube rolling doesn’t matter. I have 3 pairs of new production JJ12AU7’s in my never going to use drawer. Within those JJ’s I have the plain and the gold pin. I just spent $3K to have my Rogue M-180’s brought up to new specks and upgraded to “ Dark “ status. I pulled the JJ’s at about 40 hours of burn in as I couldn’t take it any longer. I put in a quad of Seimens Nickle plates. I have a quad of Tekefunken G73-R’s to go in when the project is fully setup. I replaced the 2 new production Tung Sol 5751’s at about 100 hours with NOS Tekefunken 12AX7’s and after a few days traded those for NOS 5751 GE 5 Star as it was too edgy.  FWIW it takes about 1 hour to cool down and start up different signal tubes, and there is no biasing. That being said I was very impressed with the new production Tung Sol’s. I’m loaning them to a friend that I trade tubes with to try in his guitar amps. The one thing the JJ’s are very good for is filling the spot when you ship for repair or to sell the gear. I have a 12 wpc Had Inspire that takes a rectifier tube in addition to input and power tubes and all three positions are self biasing. I have 6 rectifier, 7 input and 6 pair of power tubes ALL NOS. I can tell a difference in all of it. I also have 4-5 pair of new production power tubes and can tell with those too, but only 2 pair are the same value as I can roll from EL34 to KT150. To answer the actual question posed , yes I would still use tube gear. However I’m very concerned about the quality of new production power tubes. On my low power system I’ve been able to avoid room treatments by tube rolling. But with the higher power gear still breaking in and not being properly setup I can already tell I’ll need treatment. One thing I’ve heard but not experienced is “ gear that plays just as well with the new production tubes provided Vs tube rolling. Maybe some of the heavy hitters with manufacturing experience will chime in on that. So todays problem is do I trust buying an octet of new Tung Sol KT-120’s to replace the Psvane KT-88’s that Rogue currently ships with. But I can just spend $1100 with Uncle Chester and rest assured that he has the best on the planet. Or get out my shoe box full of lightly used SED Winged C’s and enjoy sonic bliss. Whoo hoo , Life is Good, Mike B. 

The one thing the JJ’s are very good for is filling the spot when you ship for repair or to sell the gear.   
 

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Yes. Plenty of vintage tubes stored away in cabinets, and using all new re-issue tubes now and past few years.    I rotate the vintage tubes in/out once in a while, just to make it seem like they are all worth keeping, and from some of the best vintage tube sellers & testing, yet not finding much of a need for them as much any more. Just buy quality tubes that are well tested with a warranty and helpful tube seller and you should be good. If you can do both types, great, if not, its not as big of a deal that some like to make it out to be imo.Best of Luck.   

Yes, but i have a tester....  it's risky with 4 pin antique tubes and also any rectifiers though .   Most of my tube gear has modern equivalent or type is still made.   I do have a bunch of e180f and 5r4gy/ 274b on hand so no worries.   

I'd ask the opposite question- does the unit sound good with a modern production tube? Good old stock is depleted and pricey- yeah, I run them but it gets harder to source replacements. And in my experience, there is a big difference in sound among different tubes that are semi-equivalent if not directly equivalent. So, I'd want something that will play nicely with a readily available tube, not just unobtanium, if I were in the market for new gear today. And, what is readily available today may not be tomorrow. I've been using tubes for audio since the early-mid '70s. If I were starting from scratch today, I don't know that I go down the rabbit hole at all, but that's wishful thinking-- I am where I am. Enjoyed the journey. Appreciated the days when you could buy new old stock Tele 12ax7s for 10 bucks a pop-- which was considered a premium. 

I ask this question with complete sincerity.  What is the fascination with vintage tubes?  I can't think of much else where people put such a premium of things built decades ago.  Nothing technological that I can think of.  Are there some materials that are no longer available to modern tube manufacturers?  Is there a secret process that has been Lost?  Surely,  we must be able to manufacture tubes today with the same care and attention to detail.  In virtually all fields, the passing of time leads to improvements in the manufacturing process.  So why are audio tubes, apparently, an exception to this rule.

ghdprentice

In simple inexpensive amps perhaps the tube can get you somewhere better and more sophisticated. But for carefully designed high end amps, the tubes are chosen for availability and general character and then the rest of the component is designed to achieve a very specific sound. The goal is the specific sound characteristics… and all the components are chosen to achieve it ...

I think that's true. It means that with gear such as ARC, you're most likely to get a neutral sound. If you want to fiddle with tubes and use them as a sort of EQ device, that's fine. But then modern tube gear such as ARC probably isn't for you.

I wouldn’t buy anything new that relied on vintage products to sound good.  Kinda silly really but there is something for everyone. 

@bigtwin I think the answer was supposed to be the transistor but I've been around long enough to remember how much better the ARC SP3 preamp sounded than its solid state competition in the early-mid '70s. And, insofar as tube manufacture is concerned, I think it is a combination of things: materials and worker safety, tooling and loss of know-how for what is at best a now a niche market. That tubes were still manufactured in the old Soviet bloc had less to do with their belief in old technology than it was their inability to modernize. Sure, there are similar issues with rare earth materials involved in semiconductor manufacture, but the tube is obsolete and as such, people go back to the days when they were still a mainstream product. Did you ever see those old newsreels on video of the production of Mullard tubes? Fascinating- it was like a steampunk assembly line.

Here's one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GDvF89Bh27Y 

Yes, 100% - and this is the situation for basically any power amp that uses a quad or more of KT88+ tubes. Or anything with 6H30 - which is an excellent tube; arguably better than alternate types with vintage options (6922). Vintage tubes are great, but new tubes are better than no tubes.

Plenty of very nice modern 300B, 845, EL34 tubes. I'd definitely have an issue devoid NOS for most others.

It would be interesting for me to compare my VAC Avatar SE full of vintage Mullard and RCA tubes with later VAC integrated full of Chinese/Russian tubes.

"new tubes are better than no tubes". This is something that would be very hard to argue with. I certainly won't. Yes, modern amps should sound good with whatever new tubes are available, but..even Kevin of VAC himself recommended vintage tubes for driver and power output tubes. Surprisingly to me he suggested  I stay with selected Chinese 12AX7 for preamp. I of course did not, though I am sure he knows what he talks about. Besides the sound quality I also want reliability and longevity.

Why would you not be able to use vintage tubes??

Yes I would.

Has the Thread Initiator ever heard any vintage tubes?

Absolutely.  I’ve run precious few NOS or vintage tubes in my amps/preamp over the years.  Tung Sol, Gold Lion, and some EH and new issue Mullards have been sounding darn good to me.  Even the modern tubes that I haven’t "loved" have been pretty pleasant.

It's difficult for manufacturers to supply reliable consistent vintage tubes in large quantities, so many world class amps source tubes from Russia or China, or wherever else new tubes are made.

@inna I won't buy it in the first place. Tubes are not for me

I think, Lamm ( Vladimir Shushurin ) built his amps around particular vintage Russian tubes. But you couldn't buy them from him unless you had Lamm.

12AX7 and 12AU7 vintage tubes are still plenty, probably enough for the next 50 years. As for vintage power tubes, yeah, that's increasingly a problem, both to find a matched quad and rising prices.

I should've bought Gryphon Diablo 120 instead of VAC Avatar SE, so much easier. No way.

I would use all new tubes if necessary. As it happens, I was able to get a pair of NOS military-grade RCA 6SL7 tubes for the drivers in a KT88 push-pull amp I have, which has made an improvement, as have also the higher grade PSVane power tubes.

Yes. In my 5 tube amps, I use many current production tubes. Not because I’m cheap. I have boxes of NOS in the closet. I just prefer some of the new tubes is some cases. In others, like 5ar4-type rectifiers, current tubes can’t match up to my favorite NOS. But plenty-good tubes are being made these days.

@mapman I think you're missing the point.  I believe that all the amps referenced sound great right from the start and don't rely on old tubes to sound good.  Tube rolling allows for adjusting the "house sound" to one's taste.  These aren't generally stratospheric changes, though.  My VAC Signature II's sounded good with the KT-88's they came with.  For me, they sound best to my ears with KT-170's.  I agree completely with Mulling-"Vintage tubes are great, but new tubes are better than no tubes".

Like @chenry, I have several matched quartets of NOS RCA and Sylvania 6SN7 tubes that really complete my desired sound-and each brand has its own flavor.

Like others have said, I wouldn't have patience with a tube amp that demanded NOS tubes to sound good.  There are plenty of good new tubes on the market today.  My Williamson amps sound great with Gold Lion KT66's and GZ34s, and Tung-Sol 6SN7s.

@wmr57- my doppelgänger--you still using the Allnic phono pre? I rolled a bunch of rectifiers in that, finding the sweetspot for me, given my system voicing, to be the GEC U-52 cup base. I have a metal base Mullard (really a Philips-Miniwatt from Holland), a grail tube, but it had mucho bass and no "air" or nuance on top. For those unfamiliar with the unit, it is supplied with a cheap, crappy rectifier (or at least it was) and I suspect the manufacturer knew that folks were gonna roll it. It’s really the only tube that makes a difference in the unit.

@inna- with respect to Lamm, they supply a Sovtek 12ax7 as part of the full tube complement for the ML2 series SET amps when you buy from the company, which most do. Those usually get rolled by owners. I asked Lamm about it once- they didn’t really go to the trouble to source NOS 12ax7s  (though a lot of the tubes in the amp aren’t new manufacture--you take your chances on the power tube/regulator Russian 6C33C which you can buy cheaply in the open market but there are risks of failure and those tubes have a weird range of bias that corresponds to each amps range for biasing them, a factor that Lamm keeps proprietary). The only tube I "roll" in the Lamms is the 12Ax7 and use an old stock ribbed Tele, which gives the amp a little more bite than the smooth plate. Both versions of the Tele sound far better than the Sovtek. 

As to wide availability of common tubes, like the 12AX7, you can buy "pulls" of that tube all day that measure well. My experience is that they don’t last as long and go noisy. True NOS isn’t cheap if you can trust the vendor and my experience is that the amps hold bias better too. (Use a Fluke pretty much every time I run the amps to verify). 

In a world where tubes were common and easy to get it was fun. Now that a lot of these are unobtanium--try finding NIB GEC KT66s as a quad (I did some years ago for my Quad II amps), it becomes another hurdle. I’m not in this for bragging rights, I’m in it for sound, which is why I suggested that modern tube amps that will sound good using readily available modern production makes even more sense today, with the depletion of stock. 

I run a combo of NOS vintage tubes and new reissue tubes. It depends on where and how they are in the circuit. Personally, i think that in many cases, one gets possibly a more reliable tube with some of the reissues. Simply because the NOS tubes, like the 50's and 60's tele's etc are really unknown as to their usage. I can't say how many times i have bought NOS 'vintage' tubes only to look at the tube pins and to know that this tube is more than just used. Do NOS vintage tubes sound better than the current reissues? In most cases, i would say they do, but again, depending on where in the circuit. 

Today, I also think that some of the new power tubes are superior to the power tubes of yesterday, certainly in SQ, maybe also in reliability. ( although that depends greatly from tube to tube). 

Would I discount a good piece of tube gear if I could not use a 'vintage' tube in it...absolutely not.

I wouldn't, but I like equipment that is flexible as I gou through the adventure of finding my best sound. 

Soon there might be neither Chinese nor Russian new tubes available if the trade is stopped, so you better get a supply of them. Not my problem, I stay with vintage. You see, there is an unexpected advantage, in addition to expected advantage.

Back in the late ’90s I was running a Cary SLP-90  with 12au7s in front of a pair of ARC VTM-120s that were configured with four 6550s a piece with some 6922s in front of them.  I talked to Andy in Michigan and he sold me some NOS Mullard 12au7s for the pre and some NOS Amperex 6922s for the amps. After those tubes broke in a bit, that combination sounded fantastic.  At the time I was running the amps with Svetlanta 6550s (either the 6550b or 6550C, I cannot remember) and I was so happy with the results of the other tubes Andy sold me that I called Andy back again and this time he sold me two quads of either NOS or vintage used Tung-Sol 6550s.  Those cost me what I thought was an arm and a leg back then and I honestly couldn’t hear improvement.

I am not using the Cary right now and the ARCs are long gone; the stereo amp I am using right now takes a dozen EL34s and there is no way I am going to lay out what it would cost to go vintage used or NOS in that. 

Vintage used could be $100 each, but if you wanted to match dozen EL34 tubes..that would be a problem. And, yes, you couldn't be sure in advance of significant improvement. Well, vintage tubes were not created equal.

Bill, I use them for sound too but vintage tubes make me feel more, well, vintage ! And I like that. It's tradition and connection to the roots. Like tape and vinyl.

As for the cost, I made very approximate calculations that in the case of my amp I will have to spend about $50 per month on vintage tubes. Not the very best tubes available but high enough. Is this a lot ? It's nothing.

If you bought it new with new tubes, you liked it with new tubes; if it turns out it sounds even better with old tubes, that is just a bonus.  Most of the time, I prefer carefully selected vintage tubes.  But, it can be quite a process auditioning various types and brands.  For the gear I own, my linestage and amp have very limited modern options; if I stick with the correct tube type—348, 349, 310–it is primarily Western Electric and scary expensive (so far, I haven’t had to replace a tube in about 15 years of operation.

I stumbled into NOS GE 6SN7GTB small tubes years ago and haven't looked back. They last REALLY long, use 'em in my Freya and Had Firebottle. Nothing sounds better to me (emphasis on "me"). Power tubes get changed around for fun and are all newish...Gold Lion KT whatever, Sovteks here and there, cool looking huge Chinese rectifiers, and sometimes weird transistors in my Pass XA-25...those things sound like tubes sort of so they get mentioned...sorry.

15 years without replacing a single tube. That's incredible.

Vintage used could be $100 each, but if you wanted to match dozen EL34 tubes..that would be a problem. And, yes, you couldn't be sure in advance of significant improvement. Well, vintage tubes were not created equal.

Actually I would  need two matched sex-tets, but still. . . .

Yeah, Brent from Audio Tubes might be able to deliver it for you if you place a custom order, but the cost..probably at least $150 each for used test NOS, more likely $200 each.

Fifteen years for the amp and linestage and the tubes that were put in those two components were old to begin with--they tested good, but prior usage was unknown.  Both components run the tubes very gently.

I also run tubes in a headphone amp and a phono stage.  I would have also recorded no tube failures in these two components as well, except a shelf collapsed onto the power supply of the phono stage and wrecked both rectifiers.  This is a very odd phono stage-Viva Fono- that utilizes two 300B tubes as rectifiers.  So, this was not a cheap replacement caused by that shelf failure.

faustuss

 Further I think all the suggestions regarding tube "rolling" is a little insane . . . What a crock!

I nearly spit out my coffee when I read that comment.  LOL. Another flat-earther's credibility shot to hell.

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The best location for my JJ 12AU7's in the storage closet.

Is this true that some Western Electric tubes can last one hundred thousand hours ?

I would have some doubts about any such extreme longevity unless the tubes are run VERY gently.  There are some people who claim their table radio has been left on constantly for decades so it might be true that some tubes can last for a very long time.  The particular Western Electric tubes I run have lasted very long for me as well as for a number of other people who have bought similar gear made by Aldo D'Urso, an Italian builder who is very much into Western Electric gear.  

How long a tube lasts, it believe, is primarily that of tube design.

So for instance a 6550 tube will typically have a ~3,000 hour life.

On the other hand a 300B will have an expected live of 40,000 hours.

Many small tubes share very long life. 

I just recently learned about the 300B. I decided to get my self a backup set of Takatsuki 300B tubes (Japanese) in case their price went up considerably because of tarrifs. At $2K for the pair, a sizable increase in price would be a lot of money. Then I looked up the average life... 40,000 hours. Maybe I didn’t need the backup set... I’m over 70. Oh well. 

Secondary factors are how "hard" they are run in the design and if power tubes, how hard the amp is run (as in how high is the volume). 

The 40,000 hour figure comes from original WesternElectric 300B operations and does not necessarily apply to all 300Bs.  Some, such as Elrogs were notorious for quick deaths.  As for the new reissues, it is to early to tell, but at least they have a long five year guarantee.  Another issue is that some modern amps really push tubes very hard to be able to claim high output power.  I would personally prefer an amp that runs the amp very conservatively.  Another issue is that a lot of American power grids deliver power at 120 volts or more and this can be hard on tubes.  I know tube people that employ step down transformers, one to as low as 100 volts.

How can I know if my amp is hard on tubes or not ? And what about 12AX7 and 12AU7 signal tubes, can the amp be hard on them too ?

I use PS Audio regenerator that puts out 120 volts. Well, I could, I suppose, put a step down transformer between the regenerator and the amp. How would the amp sound with 100 volts input, I wonder ?

ghdprentice, it is always a good idea to have a back up set.

I don’t think you need to go so low, 115 volts would be within any specified operating voltage and it would be significantly gentler on tubes.  Too low and performance may suffer and might actually be a problem if your amp has voltage regulators.  The person I know who set voltage at 100, knows what he is doing and can adjust other operating parameters of his gear.  Some amps do run small signal tubes hard too, but that is not usually a big concern.  There are some who don’t use these tubes as drivers for the 300B because they may not have enough grunt (or may be pushed a little hard to deliver sufficient output), but many amps do use these tubes as drivers.  The subject is complicated, as some amps use interstage transformers which reduce the need for grunt from the driver.  Hence, it is hard to generalize.

In order to determine life expectancy good to know plate voltages, ask amp manufacturer or measure plate voltages. Soft start circuits will also extend life, in rush current can be hard on tubes.

@steakster So, what are those things that look like space heaters with rows of piezo tweeters across the top? Subs? I bet you’re also going to tell me all of your equipment is so esoteric that I’ve never heard of any of it with the exception of the bargain priced Denon CD player you’ve got there. The Denon built tray in my McIntosh transport whole sales for more than that. The after photo of your cable routing is worse than the before and what’s all the blue tape stuck here and there on the loose wires? I hope you keep a fire extinguisher handy!

faustuss

 Further I think all the suggestions regarding tube "rolling" is a little insane . . . What a crock!

I nearly spit out my coffee when I read that comment.  LOL. Another flat-earther’s credibility shot to hell.

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The best location for my JJ 12AU7’s in the storage closet.

 

If you can't hear the difference between say an Amperex Bugle Boy 12AX& and a vintage Telefunken ECC803s and current manufacture tubes, either there is something wrong with your gear, or your ears, or both.  I don't go crazy with tube rolling myself, but I do hear substantial differences.  So much of what is right is a matter of matching a system and personal taste.  The only 12AX7, or similar tube type, that I run in my system are the vintage ECC803s tubes in my phono stage.  A good friend of mine cannot stand that, or any other Telefunken tube.  Tastes do differ.

@whart , hey bro, sorry to be tardy: I just saw your post. Yes, still running the H3000, although I supplement it with the MC/MC phono in my VAC preamp and a last-gen K&K Maxxed Out with silver Lundahls, which is a gem. The Allnic is still top dog, though. Like you (of course!) I ran a GEC for years until it died. Wonderful tube: harmonically rich and detailed with great dimensionality. I located what I think is another, although it’s labeled CV575. It has a brown cup base, like the first one, and a similar sound. Expensive like the first one, too. But I have to admit, for my system, it’s been superseded by a recent creation, the Richard Kron Anniv 5U4G, which is sadly no longer made.This tube offers much of the GEC and CV575 but has more extension on top. I’m a big fan and luck to have found a couple extras.

You’re right that the H3000 is mostly influenced by the rectifier--to an almost bizarre degree. All the other tubes, as you know, are weird ones and NOS only.But I have found that USA-produced E810F sound noticeably inferior to the Holland-made ones. Too bad, because I have a bunch! Otherwise, yeah, no tube rolling to done outside of the power supply.