Would you buy a tube amp if you were unable to use vintage tubes in it ?


Not available or too expensive.

Hmm.., I don't think I have a definitive answer for myself, but I would do my best to avoid such amps. There is no substitute for great tubes, I guess, especially if you value sophisticated sound.

 

inna

I see, complicated subject regarding amp designs and how gentle or not the amps are on tubes. I won't bother the VAC designer with these questions, especially considering that his answers won't change anything for me. I will continue with the best vintage tubes I can find and afford.

Tastes differ, but when something sounds good everyone with hearing will agree that it does indeed sound good. The rest is a matter of preference. You prefer Stradivarius and I prefer Guarneri . 

@wrm57- not a problem. I mistyped your screen name earlier. I did find another cup base GEC U-52, this time a black base, not a brown base. I think it is an earlier production, although someone else who had a lot of these said that the brown base was preferred (my brown base tube still has some life but had some time on it), and the fresh black base sounds fine. Doesn’t surprise me that Kron is not readily available. Are they still in business?

When I retubed everything (all components, not just the Allnic), I did get old stock Holland E810Fs. I had bought some a few years before, never used them, but they were printed on the glass as made in Great Britain. I later learned they were made by Amperex in the States. Apparently, during the golden age of tubes, affiliates took overflow and since both were owned by Philips, no problem. My seller was surprised to learn that- I didn’t return them, they are in one of those boxes of "fresh" old tubes stashed away here.

Even having been in this market for decades as a consumer, there is a lot to learn and nuances that aren’t obvious to the uninitiated- all the more reason to source tubes from a trusted seller. Andy is one of the best I’ve encountered in the States since the Great Disappearance™ of Elusive High End Tubes, but you have to be patient. He can’t always scratch the itch when you need a tube, pronto. 

Inna, 

You have a steady 120 volts and that should be good because gear is made for that voltage.  In some parts of the country, one can see much higher voltage, such as 125-127.  That high a voltage would be of concern for some, but not all tube gear and it makes sense to back that voltage down.  If one can back it down it might make sense to go to the lower end of the acceptable range of voltages such as 110 volts.  My voltage is fairly steady at 117 volts, although it does rise to 120 volts once in a while.  

 

You have a steady 120 volts and that should be good because gear is made for that voltage.  In some parts of the country, one can see much higher voltage, such as 125-127.  That high a voltage would be of concern for some, but not all tube gear and it makes sense to back that voltage down.  If one can back it down it might make sense to go to the lower end of the acceptable range of voltages such as 110 volts.  My voltage is fairly steady at 117 volts, although it does rise to 120 volts once in a while.  

We get 120 - 124 Volts around here. It’s never been a problem for "modern" tube gear, which would include everything from VAC. It can be a definite concern for vintage tube amps! You’ll see vintage amps with hot running transformers or red-plating tubes for various reasons, but the high wall voltage can be partially to blame, sometimes. 

On my big modern tube amps - no red plating or boiling hot xformers, but the big KT tubes with side-getters do tend to show wear on those side getters, over a year or 2 of use. I’m not sure yet it how much that reflects on lifespan. I've changed power tubes before 2,000 hours unconditionally. But FWIW, the side getters have worn quicker in my VAC tube amps than the Rogue tube amps. It’s a delicate balancing act between power output, sonic perfomance, and longevity. Rogue’s later amps have been VERY conservative on running tubes (a stark turn from their M120 days). But if you do have a VAC, my advice is to not second guess Kevin Hayes’s choices. They’re FINE. 

Larry, I see, so I won't play with step down transformers, I guess, though it could be interesting.

mulveling, Kevin does like certain vintage Mullards and Sylvanias.

@whart , I know what you mean about Andy. I once placed an order and he called me 18 months later to fill it, haha. Sorry, Andy! I’m pretty sure KR Audio is still operating. The 5U4G I’m talking about (actually called Riccardo Kron Anniversary Edition) had a brief production run, I believe in 2018, so they ran out a while back. But they do pop up for sale. I found a new one 7 or 8 months ago on AudioMart.

I love tube amps and have learned that the worst thing you can do with one is turn it on and listen to it. Sure, it might sound great, but that leads to tube rolling from the audio geek compulsion to change stuff, and wear and tear on the tubes. Just put the amp there and leave it off...you can still look at the tubes and feel like you know what you're doing and are part of the tube freak world. But by no means should you actually use a tube amp...it will just lead to trouble.

@inna Sorry to be so late to this. If I may add a humorous aside?

Keep anything long enough and by default it will become "vintage". wink

IMHO, much like the halo around "Cuban cigars", I think that "NOS" tubes are somewhat overrated. "Old" doesn't necessarily translate to "better". Yes they were "made differently" back when, but modern materials and manufacturing methods are unnecessarily demonized. Let your ears be the judge.

Happy listening.

@musicfan2349- I was pretty picky about my cigars too and probably had more depth in those at one point than in NOS tubes (which have all kinds of nuances re where manufactured, when, getter, and other internals and I only have knowledge of the tubes I've used).

The benchmark for me was a spicy smoke that wasn't harsh- I was able to experience everything from pre-Embargo to Davidoff cubans, and my go-to was a good Monte #2 but they were variable (I guess b/c they are organic, but I don't know if wine connoisseurs find bottle to bottle variations; that was certainly true of cigar batches, leaving aside "vintage"). Alas, I had to give up smoking many years ago for health reasons so have no clue what that market is like these days.  

My preamp is Conrad-Johnson's top model the ART88.  It came brand new from the factory with four Phillips NOS ECC88's.  I read in a HiFI+ review that you could replace the "made for TVs" NOS tubes with EH6922 Golds for a nice increase in sound quality.  Okay, so ordered a set.  Yes the change was immediate. Jeff, the designer at C-J said he thought the EH's might turn noisy but no harm.  After a few months, there was no noise from the EH's but thought I'd put the NOS tubes back in and see how they sounded.  What I discovered was a definite preference for the original NOS tubes.  The sound was better; richer in the mids and just as detailed.  Turns out, I was fooled by a bit of extra gain from the new production tubes.  Slightly louder, of course, sounded better at first.

Guess the process is to listen and see what you prefer.  The HiFi + review has  different gear so came to a another conclusion.

My tube preamp is a Linear Tube Audio MZ2. Maybe tube rolling changes the sound, but I prefer a different tool: the five-band parametric equalizer in the RME ADI FS2 DAC. Sometimes I run it flat, and sometimes I run it with a boost in the lower midtones (250 - 500 HZ). The difference in sound is apparent. And the DAC should last longer than almost any preamp tube.

 

Well, contrary to what others have posted, I understand that many phono stage manufacturers ship their units with crappy stock tubes. The reason? They know that tube sound and quality is relatively subjective, that people pay top $ for some tubes from the 1950s, that tube rolling exists and that therefore the user is going to immediately put his or her own tubes in upon installation. 

As I did. 

"vintage" also may imply that something became a classic and has a historical value. So I will call only excellent old tubes vintage not all of them.

Yeah, signal tubes from 50s or even late 40s.