Would you buy a tube amp if you were unable to use vintage tubes in it ?

"vintage" also may imply that something became a classic and has a historical value. So I will call only excellent old tubes vintage not all of them.

Yeah, signal tubes from 50s or even late 40s.

Well, contrary to what others have posted, I understand that many phono stage manufacturers ship their units with crappy stock tubes. The reason? They know that tube sound and quality is relatively subjective, that people pay top $ for some tubes from the 1950s, that tube rolling exists and that therefore the user is going to immediately put his or her own tubes in upon installation. 

As I did. 

My tube preamp is a Linear Tube Audio MZ2. Maybe tube rolling changes the sound, but I prefer a different tool: the five-band parametric equalizer in the RME ADI FS2 DAC. Sometimes I run it flat, and sometimes I run it with a boost in the lower midtones (250 - 500 HZ). The difference in sound is apparent. And the DAC should last longer than almost any preamp tube.

My preamp is Conrad-Johnson's top model the ART88.  It came brand new from the factory with four Phillips NOS ECC88's.  I read in a HiFI+ review that you could replace the "made for TVs" NOS tubes with EH6922 Golds for a nice increase in sound quality.  Okay, so ordered a set.  Yes the change was immediate. Jeff, the designer at C-J said he thought the EH's might turn noisy but no harm.  After a few months, there was no noise from the EH's but thought I'd put the NOS tubes back in and see how they sounded.  What I discovered was a definite preference for the original NOS tubes.  The sound was better; richer in the mids and just as detailed.  Turns out, I was fooled by a bit of extra gain from the new production tubes.  Slightly louder, of course, sounded better at first.

Guess the process is to listen and see what you prefer.  The HiFi + review has  different gear so came to a another conclusion.

@musicfan2349- I was pretty picky about my cigars too and probably had more depth in those at one point than in NOS tubes (which have all kinds of nuances re where manufactured, when, getter, and other internals and I only have knowledge of the tubes I've used).

The benchmark for me was a spicy smoke that wasn't harsh- I was able to experience everything from pre-Embargo to Davidoff cubans, and my go-to was a good Monte #2 but they were variable (I guess b/c they are organic, but I don't know if wine connoisseurs find bottle to bottle variations; that was certainly true of cigar batches, leaving aside "vintage"). Alas, I had to give up smoking many years ago for health reasons so have no clue what that market is like these days.  

@inna Sorry to be so late to this. If I may add a humorous aside?

Keep anything long enough and by default it will become "vintage". 

IMHO, much like the halo around "Cuban cigars", I think that "NOS" tubes are somewhat overrated. "Old" doesn't necessarily translate to "better". Yes they were "made differently" back when, but modern materials and manufacturing methods are unnecessarily demonized. Let your ears be the judge.

Happy listening.

I love tube amps and have learned that the worst thing you can do with one is turn it on and listen to it. Sure, it might sound great, but that leads to tube rolling from the audio geek compulsion to change stuff, and wear and tear on the tubes. Just put the amp there and leave it off...you can still look at the tubes and feel like you know what you're doing and are part of the tube freak world. But by no means should you actually use a tube amp...it will just lead to trouble.

@whart , I know what you mean about Andy. I once placed an order and he called me 18 months later to fill it, haha. Sorry, Andy! I’m pretty sure KR Audio is still operating. The 5U4G I’m talking about (actually called Riccardo Kron Anniversary Edition) had a brief production run, I believe in 2018, so they ran out a while back. But they do pop up for sale. I found a new one 7 or 8 months ago on AudioMart.

Larry, I see, so I won't play with step down transformers, I guess, though it could be interesting.

mulveling, Kevin does like certain vintage Mullards and Sylvanias.

You have a steady 120 volts and that should be good because gear is made for that voltage.  In some parts of the country, one can see much higher voltage, such as 125-127.  That high a voltage would be of concern for some, but not all tube gear and it makes sense to back that voltage down.  If one can back it down it might make sense to go to the lower end of the acceptable range of voltages such as 110 volts.  My voltage is fairly steady at 117 volts, although it does rise to 120 volts once in a while.  

We get 120 - 124 Volts around here. It’s never been a problem for "modern" tube gear, which would include everything from VAC. It can be a definite concern for vintage tube amps! You’ll see vintage amps with hot running transformers or red-plating tubes for various reasons, but the high wall voltage can be partially to blame, sometimes. 

On my big modern tube amps - no red plating or boiling hot xformers, but the big KT tubes with side-getters do tend to show wear on those side getters, over a year or 2 of use. I’m not sure yet it how much that reflects on lifespan. I've changed power tubes before 2,000 hours unconditionally. But FWIW, the side getters have worn quicker in my VAC tube amps than the Rogue tube amps. It’s a delicate balancing act between power output, sonic perfomance, and longevity. Rogue’s later amps have been VERY conservative on running tubes (a stark turn from their M120 days). But if you do have a VAC, my advice is to not second guess Kevin Hayes’s choices. They’re FINE. 

Inna, 

You have a steady 120 volts and that should be good because gear is made for that voltage.  In some parts of the country, one can see much higher voltage, such as 125-127.  That high a voltage would be of concern for some, but not all tube gear and it makes sense to back that voltage down.  If one can back it down it might make sense to go to the lower end of the acceptable range of voltages such as 110 volts.  My voltage is fairly steady at 117 volts, although it does rise to 120 volts once in a while.  

@wrm57- not a problem. I mistyped your screen name earlier. I did find another cup base GEC U-52, this time a black base, not a brown base. I think it is an earlier production, although someone else who had a lot of these said that the brown base was preferred (my brown base tube still has some life but had some time on it), and the fresh black base sounds fine. Doesn’t surprise me that Kron is not readily available. Are they still in business?

When I retubed everything (all components, not just the Allnic), I did get old stock Holland E810Fs. I had bought some a few years before, never used them, but they were printed on the glass as made in Great Britain. I later learned they were made by Amperex in the States. Apparently, during the golden age of tubes, affiliates took overflow and since both were owned by Philips, no problem. My seller was surprised to learn that- I didn’t return them, they are in one of those boxes of "fresh" old tubes stashed away here.

Even having been in this market for decades as a consumer, there is a lot to learn and nuances that aren’t obvious to the uninitiated- all the more reason to source tubes from a trusted seller. Andy is one of the best I’ve encountered in the States since the Great Disappearance™ of Elusive High End Tubes, but you have to be patient. He can’t always scratch the itch when you need a tube, pronto. 

I see, complicated subject regarding amp designs and how gentle or not the amps are on tubes. I won't bother the VAC designer with these questions, especially considering that his answers won't change anything for me. I will continue with the best vintage tubes I can find and afford.

Tastes differ, but when something sounds good everyone with hearing will agree that it does indeed sound good. The rest is a matter of preference. You prefer Stradivarius and I prefer Guarneri . 

@whart , hey bro, sorry to be tardy: I just saw your post. Yes, still running the H3000, although I supplement it with the MC/MC phono in my VAC preamp and a last-gen K&K Maxxed Out with silver Lundahls, which is a gem. The Allnic is still top dog, though. Like you (of course!) I ran a GEC for years until it died. Wonderful tube: harmonically rich and detailed with great dimensionality. I located what I think is another, although it’s labeled CV575. It has a brown cup base, like the first one, and a similar sound. Expensive like the first one, too. But I have to admit, for my system, it’s been superseded by a recent creation, the Richard Kron Anniv 5U4G, which is sadly no longer made.This tube offers much of the GEC and CV575 but has more extension on top. I’m a big fan and luck to have found a couple extras.

You’re right that the H3000 is mostly influenced by the rectifier--to an almost bizarre degree. All the other tubes, as you know, are weird ones and NOS only.But I have found that USA-produced E810F sound noticeably inferior to the Holland-made ones. Too bad, because I have a bunch! Otherwise, yeah, no tube rolling to done outside of the power supply.

If you can't hear the difference between say an Amperex Bugle Boy 12AX& and a vintage Telefunken ECC803s and current manufacture tubes, either there is something wrong with your gear, or your ears, or both.  I don't go crazy with tube rolling myself, but I do hear substantial differences.  So much of what is right is a matter of matching a system and personal taste.  The only 12AX7, or similar tube type, that I run in my system are the vintage ECC803s tubes in my phono stage.  A good friend of mine cannot stand that, or any other Telefunken tube.  Tastes do differ.

@steakster So, what are those things that look like space heaters with rows of piezo tweeters across the top? Subs? I bet you’re also going to tell me all of your equipment is so esoteric that I’ve never heard of any of it with the exception of the bargain priced Denon CD player you’ve got there. The Denon built tray in my McIntosh transport whole sales for more than that. The after photo of your cable routing is worse than the before and what’s all the blue tape stuck here and there on the loose wires? I hope you keep a fire extinguisher handy!

faustuss

 Further I think all the suggestions regarding tube "rolling" is a little insane . . . What a crock!

I nearly spit out my coffee when I read that comment.  LOL. Another flat-earther’s credibility shot to hell.

- - - - 

The best location for my JJ 12AU7’s in the storage closet.

 

In order to determine life expectancy good to know plate voltages, ask amp manufacturer or measure plate voltages. Soft start circuits will also extend life, in rush current can be hard on tubes.

I don’t think you need to go so low, 115 volts would be within any specified operating voltage and it would be significantly gentler on tubes.  Too low and performance may suffer and might actually be a problem if your amp has voltage regulators.  The person I know who set voltage at 100, knows what he is doing and can adjust other operating parameters of his gear.  Some amps do run small signal tubes hard too, but that is not usually a big concern.  There are some who don’t use these tubes as drivers for the 300B because they may not have enough grunt (or may be pushed a little hard to deliver sufficient output), but many amps do use these tubes as drivers.  The subject is complicated, as some amps use interstage transformers which reduce the need for grunt from the driver.  Hence, it is hard to generalize.

ghdprentice, it is always a good idea to have a back up set.

How can I know if my amp is hard on tubes or not ? And what about 12AX7 and 12AU7 signal tubes, can the amp be hard on them too ?

I use PS Audio regenerator that puts out 120 volts. Well, I could, I suppose, put a step down transformer between the regenerator and the amp. How would the amp sound with 100 volts input, I wonder ?

The 40,000 hour figure comes from original WesternElectric 300B operations and does not necessarily apply to all 300Bs.  Some, such as Elrogs were notorious for quick deaths.  As for the new reissues, it is to early to tell, but at least they have a long five year guarantee.  Another issue is that some modern amps really push tubes very hard to be able to claim high output power.  I would personally prefer an amp that runs the amp very conservatively.  Another issue is that a lot of American power grids deliver power at 120 volts or more and this can be hard on tubes.  I know tube people that employ step down transformers, one to as low as 100 volts.

How long a tube lasts, it believe, is primarily that of tube design.

So for instance a 6550 tube will typically have a ~3,000 hour life.

On the other hand a 300B will have an expected live of 40,000 hours.

Many small tubes share very long life. 

I just recently learned about the 300B. I decided to get my self a backup set of Takatsuki 300B tubes (Japanese) in case their price went up considerably because of tarrifs. At $2K for the pair, a sizable increase in price would be a lot of money. Then I looked up the average life... 40,000 hours. Maybe I didn’t need the backup set... I’m over 70. Oh well. 

Secondary factors are how "hard" they are run in the design and if power tubes, how hard the amp is run (as in how high is the volume). 

I would have some doubts about any such extreme longevity unless the tubes are run VERY gently.  There are some people who claim their table radio has been left on constantly for decades so it might be true that some tubes can last for a very long time.  The particular Western Electric tubes I run have lasted very long for me as well as for a number of other people who have bought similar gear made by Aldo D'Urso, an Italian builder who is very much into Western Electric gear.  

Is this true that some Western Electric tubes can last one hundred thousand hours ?

faustuss

 Further I think all the suggestions regarding tube "rolling" is a little insane . . . What a crock!

I nearly spit out my coffee when I read that comment.  LOL. Another flat-earther's credibility shot to hell.

- - - - 

The best location for my JJ 12AU7's in the storage closet.

Fifteen years for the amp and linestage and the tubes that were put in those two components were old to begin with--they tested good, but prior usage was unknown.  Both components run the tubes very gently.

I also run tubes in a headphone amp and a phono stage.  I would have also recorded no tube failures in these two components as well, except a shelf collapsed onto the power supply of the phono stage and wrecked both rectifiers.  This is a very odd phono stage-Viva Fono- that utilizes two 300B tubes as rectifiers.  So, this was not a cheap replacement caused by that shelf failure.

Yeah, Brent from Audio Tubes might be able to deliver it for you if you place a custom order, but the cost..probably at least $150 each for used test NOS, more likely $200 each.

Vintage used could be $100 each, but if you wanted to match dozen EL34 tubes..that would be a problem. And, yes, you couldn't be sure in advance of significant improvement. Well, vintage tubes were not created equal.

Actually I would  need two matched sex-tets, but still. . . .

15 years without replacing a single tube. That's incredible.

I stumbled into NOS GE 6SN7GTB small tubes years ago and haven't looked back. They last REALLY long, use 'em in my Freya and Had Firebottle. Nothing sounds better to me (emphasis on "me"). Power tubes get changed around for fun and are all newish...Gold Lion KT whatever, Sovteks here and there, cool looking huge Chinese rectifiers, and sometimes weird transistors in my Pass XA-25...those things sound like tubes sort of so they get mentioned...sorry.

If you bought it new with new tubes, you liked it with new tubes; if it turns out it sounds even better with old tubes, that is just a bonus.  Most of the time, I prefer carefully selected vintage tubes.  But, it can be quite a process auditioning various types and brands.  For the gear I own, my linestage and amp have very limited modern options; if I stick with the correct tube type—348, 349, 310–it is primarily Western Electric and scary expensive (so far, I haven’t had to replace a tube in about 15 years of operation.

Bill, I use them for sound too but vintage tubes make me feel more, well, vintage ! And I like that. It's tradition and connection to the roots. Like tape and vinyl.

As for the cost, I made very approximate calculations that in the case of my amp I will have to spend about $50 per month on vintage tubes. Not the very best tubes available but high enough. Is this a lot ? It's nothing.

Vintage used could be $100 each, but if you wanted to match dozen EL34 tubes..that would be a problem. And, yes, you couldn't be sure in advance of significant improvement. Well, vintage tubes were not created equal.

Back in the late ’90s I was running a Cary SLP-90  with 12au7s in front of a pair of ARC VTM-120s that were configured with four 6550s a piece with some 6922s in front of them.  I talked to Andy in Michigan and he sold me some NOS Mullard 12au7s for the pre and some NOS Amperex 6922s for the amps. After those tubes broke in a bit, that combination sounded fantastic.  At the time I was running the amps with Svetlanta 6550s (either the 6550b or 6550C, I cannot remember) and I was so happy with the results of the other tubes Andy sold me that I called Andy back again and this time he sold me two quads of either NOS or vintage used Tung-Sol 6550s.  Those cost me what I thought was an arm and a leg back then and I honestly couldn’t hear improvement.

I am not using the Cary right now and the ARCs are long gone; the stereo amp I am using right now takes a dozen EL34s and there is no way I am going to lay out what it would cost to go vintage used or NOS in that. 

Soon there might be neither Chinese nor Russian new tubes available if the trade is stopped, so you better get a supply of them. Not my problem, I stay with vintage. You see, there is an unexpected advantage, in addition to expected advantage.

I wouldn't, but I like equipment that is flexible as I gou through the adventure of finding my best sound. 

I run a combo of NOS vintage tubes and new reissue tubes. It depends on where and how they are in the circuit. Personally, i think that in many cases, one gets possibly a more reliable tube with some of the reissues. Simply because the NOS tubes, like the 50's and 60's tele's etc are really unknown as to their usage. I can't say how many times i have bought NOS 'vintage' tubes only to look at the tube pins and to know that this tube is more than just used. Do NOS vintage tubes sound better than the current reissues? In most cases, i would say they do, but again, depending on where in the circuit. 

Today, I also think that some of the new power tubes are superior to the power tubes of yesterday, certainly in SQ, maybe also in reliability. ( although that depends greatly from tube to tube). 

Would I discount a good piece of tube gear if I could not use a 'vintage' tube in it...absolutely not.

@wmr57- my doppelgänger--you still using the Allnic phono pre? I rolled a bunch of rectifiers in that, finding the sweetspot for me, given my system voicing, to be the GEC U-52 cup base. I have a metal base Mullard (really a Philips-Miniwatt from Holland), a grail tube, but it had mucho bass and no "air" or nuance on top. For those unfamiliar with the unit, it is supplied with a cheap, crappy rectifier (or at least it was) and I suspect the manufacturer knew that folks were gonna roll it. It’s really the only tube that makes a difference in the unit.

@inna- with respect to Lamm, they supply a Sovtek 12ax7 as part of the full tube complement for the ML2 series SET amps when you buy from the company, which most do. Those usually get rolled by owners. I asked Lamm about it once- they didn’t really go to the trouble to source NOS 12ax7s  (though a lot of the tubes in the amp aren’t new manufacture--you take your chances on the power tube/regulator Russian 6C33C which you can buy cheaply in the open market but there are risks of failure and those tubes have a weird range of bias that corresponds to each amps range for biasing them, a factor that Lamm keeps proprietary). The only tube I "roll" in the Lamms is the 12Ax7 and use an old stock ribbed Tele, which gives the amp a little more bite than the smooth plate. Both versions of the Tele sound far better than the Sovtek. 

As to wide availability of common tubes, like the 12AX7, you can buy "pulls" of that tube all day that measure well. My experience is that they don’t last as long and go noisy. True NOS isn’t cheap if you can trust the vendor and my experience is that the amps hold bias better too. (Use a Fluke pretty much every time I run the amps to verify). 

In a world where tubes were common and easy to get it was fun. Now that a lot of these are unobtanium--try finding NIB GEC KT66s as a quad (I did some years ago for my Quad II amps), it becomes another hurdle. I’m not in this for bragging rights, I’m in it for sound, which is why I suggested that modern tube amps that will sound good using readily available modern production makes even more sense today, with the depletion of stock. 

Like others have said, I wouldn't have patience with a tube amp that demanded NOS tubes to sound good.  There are plenty of good new tubes on the market today.  My Williamson amps sound great with Gold Lion KT66's and GZ34s, and Tung-Sol 6SN7s.

Like @chenry, I have several matched quartets of NOS RCA and Sylvania 6SN7 tubes that really complete my desired sound-and each brand has its own flavor.

@mapman I think you're missing the point.  I believe that all the amps referenced sound great right from the start and don't rely on old tubes to sound good.  Tube rolling allows for adjusting the "house sound" to one's taste.  These aren't generally stratospheric changes, though.  My VAC Signature II's sounded good with the KT-88's they came with.  For me, they sound best to my ears with KT-170's.  I agree completely with Mulling-"Vintage tubes are great, but new tubes are better than no tubes".

Yes. In my 5 tube amps, I use many current production tubes. Not because I’m cheap. I have boxes of NOS in the closet. I just prefer some of the new tubes is some cases. In others, like 5ar4-type rectifiers, current tubes can’t match up to my favorite NOS. But plenty-good tubes are being made these days.

I would use all new tubes if necessary. As it happens, I was able to get a pair of NOS military-grade RCA 6SL7 tubes for the drivers in a KT88 push-pull amp I have, which has made an improvement, as have also the higher grade PSVane power tubes.

I think, Lamm ( Vladimir Shushurin ) built his amps around particular vintage Russian tubes. But you couldn't buy them from him unless you had Lamm.

12AX7 and 12AU7 vintage tubes are still plenty, probably enough for the next 50 years. As for vintage power tubes, yeah, that's increasingly a problem, both to find a matched quad and rising prices.

I should've bought Gryphon Diablo 120 instead of VAC Avatar SE, so much easier. No way.

@inna I won't buy it in the first place. Tubes are not for me

Absolutely.  I’ve run precious few NOS or vintage tubes in my amps/preamp over the years.  Tung Sol, Gold Lion, and some EH and new issue Mullards have been sounding darn good to me.  Even the modern tubes that I haven’t "loved" have been pretty pleasant.

It's difficult for manufacturers to supply reliable consistent vintage tubes in large quantities, so many world class amps source tubes from Russia or China, or wherever else new tubes are made.

Has the Thread Initiator ever heard any vintage tubes?

Yes I would.

Why would you not be able to use vintage tubes??

It would be interesting for me to compare my VAC Avatar SE full of vintage Mullard and RCA tubes with later VAC integrated full of Chinese/Russian tubes.

"new tubes are better than no tubes". This is something that would be very hard to argue with. I certainly won't. Yes, modern amps should sound good with whatever new tubes are available, but..even Kevin of VAC himself recommended vintage tubes for driver and power output tubes. Surprisingly to me he suggested  I stay with selected Chinese 12AX7 for preamp. I of course did not, though I am sure he knows what he talks about. Besides the sound quality I also want reliability and longevity.