Why is solid state more popular when tubes are better?

seems as if you answered your own question and the premise is based on preference.  

like many things- it's complicated.  each amplification method has its set of pros and cons.  to say which is better requires a lot of qualification.  

This is very much a 'first world problems' discussion, but my pennyworth is from the perspective of someone who owns both S/S and - very recently - a valve amplifier. I've always had S/S, from original Quad 303 through (currently) Mark Levinson 331 and (my favourite) Michell/Trichord Alecto II monoblocs. All lovely stuff and I've never felt short-changed in the music department, but I've always been curious about just what difference (if any) a good valve setup could make.

The first valve amp I really listened to was an Octave v80SE, at the dealer from whom I was buying some Martin Logan speakers. Was most impressed but, in a dealer system, hard to tell what was making the difference. But it whetted my appetite – valve-curious, if you like… 

A couple of months ago, having missed out on a great deal on an ARC i50, I got the offer of an Octave v110SE with the add-on SBB capacitor bank, at price which, had I turned it down, I'd have spent the rest of my life kicking myself about.

So, inserting it in place of the Arcam pre and Alecto power amps in my system, and I'm absolutely delighted: there's an inherent musicality, subtlety and depth to the output that was (and remains) immensely appealing. That's not to knock the previous system, but just that the Octave provides an overall more satisfying experience, and I find myself listening to music even more than before, and finding new things to hear in familiar recordings. 

The downside of course is warm-up time - I've been listening for about 40 minutes this morning, and the thing is only just waking up and getting into its groove.

Then there is the cost of replacement valves, but you factor that into the purchase anyway - I'm actually pre-emptively purchasing a new set of KT150s against the time when the in-channel supplies of Russian manufacture dry up altogether.

I'm also discovering the delights of 'tube rolling', which adds yet another geek dimension to a thoroughly OCD hobby… :-)

Emergingsoul, I'd say you struck a nerve here! How dare you challenge someone's core believe! I picture in my mind how it would have been in the old west had there been audio equipment back then. The shootout at the O.K. Coral would have definitely been between Tubey Tobias and Solid State Sam! Now, where do you stand on interconnects? Watch your step!

Tube amps are LOW FI , not HIFI, since 50 years

Talking about "fidelity" : tube technology is inferior to well designed SS technology, and deprecated since 50 years

Tube tech provide : high distorsion, high noise, high heat, low power, low reliability, high cost, non linear frequency response... Everything is worst in a tube amp (and please don't ask about even distorsion harmonics : these harmonics, as their name tell it : are relevant to distorsion... and there should be no audible distorsion at all in Hifi : so even harmonics are out of scope).

The only domain where tube is still superior is : LOW FI : mainly for guitar amps where high distorsion with majority of even harmonics and frequency response non-linearities are qualities, and high noise is not a problem, as well as low power on 15'' high efficiency guitar speakers.

@skippytate ...Thanks, Mike...*fist bump*G*

This whole premise (ss v. tube) has been dis-cussed at into the ground ad absurdum with the same dame finality in ones’ lap...

You’re either ss’d....or tube’d. Some ’X-over’, but not lots...

I grew up with tubed things. Yes, they do have their characteristics, and their PIA issues that one can either live with and loved for that.

And that’s Fine.

SS is where the technology went, and is where it’s continuing to go; perhaps to the point where an AI will scan your room, ditto your head and your finances, and ’suggest’ what may make you ’happy’.

....and for many, that’ll be the end of their ’story’, put the book on the nightstand, and go to sleep. Dream of dancing ’bots in tutu’s.....or whatever...*L*

@wolf_garcia ...Hey, I can ’roll’ the chips in my sound card within my ’puter....

Does that count? ;)

There’s ’pro audio’ items of various sorts ’n apps that’ll give you ’tube’ characteristics on demand or in spite of yourself....*LOL*

Does That Account?!

*more L’ing*

You’ve read it here 1st....Soon, coming to a website in your face...

The app-ability to flick between the 2, and to ’dial in’ the amount of the characteristics you yearn for or ’have’ta have’.

’Roll tubes’ without burning your fingers.

Dogs ’n cats procreating; ’dats’ & ’cogs’, and ’fats’ & ’fogs’, when the goldfish get into the mix....

Wait until it gets to US ’umans.....

I might really end up appearing to look like my seagull.....WTF would it feel like, conversing with a bird? *ROTFLMAO*

We’re doomed...enjoy the ’floor show’, even if I don’t want to ’be underfoot’.... ;)

Tubes look cool...they just do. Also note that you can roll different tubes whenever you feel like changing the taste of things...you gonna roll transistors in in that SS amp? No, you're not. Here's a thing about what old Ralph says about his class D amps that mystifies me a bit: The D monos display a "tube like" harmonic distortion but at 1/10th the amount of his tube amps, thus likely making it hard for the pedestrian listener to hear it...just sayin'.

@emergingsoul Looks like you hurt the feelings of some sensitive sold state guys.  They arn't ok with your prefernce for tube amps.

Oh well.

Jerry

@hilde45 and @magister 

I know that men don't usually kiss and make up, but this came pretty close, and it made both of you look like bigger men. It was very nice to see here.

I’m so glad you told me this. Now I can get rid of my Jeff Rowland’s and just get this: Rockville BluTube WD 70w Bluetooth Tube Amplifier/Home Stereo Receiver 2-Tone https://a.co/d/7p7zYN6

SWEET!!

@asvjerry There are many many "lurkers" that follow a LOT of discussions. We are learning, seeing so many different angles of thoughts, experiences and how each of the audiophiles think. We see when people do something in order to lighten things up within a post. After reading 100% of all of the responses and trying to piece them together, I truly and welcomely enjoyed YOUR post. ✌️~Mike

Thanks Hilde45 ...

I prefer to be your friend by the way... Because i appreciate wise and intelligent people... And you are one... You are not completely faulty because i reacted with quick temper...

i wish you always the best...

This is a fair comment and I regret being partially responsible for the dialogue. My apologies to Mahgister and to forum members. People can read the substance of the exchange and form their own opinions but I agree it went over the line. I’ll do better.

@emergingsoul 

"multiple reasons why tube sound better? It probably is due to how harmonics are handled.  Don't tubes impact harmonics differently, ie, provide more emphasis throughout the harmonic range in ways solid state does not?  This is possibly why tube's provide a Fuller sound at lower volume."

This falls a bit short of "multiple reasons".

Anyway, to answer your rhetorical question - no, tubes don't "provide more emphasis throughout the harmonic range in ways solid state does not".

Tube power amplifiers tend to have higher levels of musically consonant harmonic distortion than SS amps do. However, that is a broad generalisation which I only mention in the context of your statement/question. It is unwise to attribute a sonic character to any particular technology because there are far too many variables involved in sound reproduction to distill them down to any particular technology.

Regarding the marketplace, SS amplifiers are more successful because they run cooler, do not have fragile output devices and are generally cheaper per watt than tube amplifiers - especially where high power outputs are required.

If on the fence, or not, do what I did…a big bold SS (vintage Crown DC 300 no less) with 5 foot tall 4 way vintage Infinity speakers in the BIG room (20 foot ceiling) for the big bold punchy party rock and roll and get the party started! Then when time to wind down, retreat to the smaller room, fire up the SET tubes into a pair of Klipsch and relax with low volume highly resolving jazz or singer songwriter vocals and chill till morning.

Different rooms, different systems, different music choices…best of both worlds.

Cheers!

@hilde45 and @mahgister go out on a parking lot and settle it. Oh and record it for TikTok and send us a link. 

This is a fair comment and I regret being partially responsible for the dialogue. My apologies to Mahgister and to forum members. People can read the substance of the exchange and form their own opinions but I agree it went over the line. I'll do better.

I find myself convinced by much of what @atmasphere says.

I was lucky to be taught tube design at university (due to the non-retirement of an aged lecturer). In other labs I manufactured ICs!

Tubes have a lot of strengths and it’s quite possible to design reasonably accurate line-level amplifier stages using them. When it comes to power amplifiers, the need to use a transformer to effectively convert lots of volts to lots of current, creates many manufacture challenges, especially at very low frequencies. It’s also hard to avoid relatively high output impedances, in which cases, the sound can eb affected by the speaker’s impedance curve and every instance will sound different (but not, strictly, accurate).

The low cost and size of silicon and germanium devices means it’s economically possible to use 10 optimised devices for the equivalent of a singe tube - which can be compromised though having to do "too much". One approach is to use a 40+ tube amplifier, but even the most enthusiastic supporters find that a bit difficult to imagine :-)

Pretty lame premise for a thread. Just trolling for vitriol, I see. 

do you have distortion measurements that you can share with us comparing your tube and class-D amplifiers?

In general our class D makes about 1/10th the distortion of our tube amps at full power. At lower power levels its much lower, since the distortion of our tube amps decreases linearly as power is decreased, whereas with our class D the distortion increases dramatically just before clipping.

The distortion spectra of our tube amps favors the 3rd harmonic with the 2nd slightly less- the better matched the tubes are the lower the 2nd becomes. In any event that distortion is plenty to mask the higher orders. Our tube amps are fully balanced and differential so the distortion spectra is based on a cubic non-linearity rather than the quadratic nonlinearity you see in an SET. Conventional tube amps that have a single-ended input and push-pull output have both non-linearities in the design so tend to feature a more prominent 5th harmonic (see Norman Crowhurst). SETs and fully differential push-pull amps like ours avoid this problem.

In our class D the 2nd harmonic is more prominent and in that respect the distortion spectra looks more like that of an SET. Again the lower orders are prominent enough that they mask the higher orders. But the distortion is essentially about an order of magnitude lower and most of that is the 2nd.

More important than the actual distortion values is the fact that in both kinds of amps we make, the distortion does not rise with frequency.

@atmasphere , do you have distortion measurements that you can share with us comparing your tube and class-D amplifiers?

@mahgister lol

Atmasphere manufactures Class D amps to so he's invested in the technology (I haven't heard his Class D mono amps but I imagine they sound fine) so there's that, and although he claims they measure like tube amps, I'm not sold.

😀 In the past there have been so many outrageous claims in the audio world that I doubt anyone takes printed claims as gospel in the audio world. We all have to take the equipment home and play it. I think this is because there's been a really big disconnect between the printed specs and what we hear for since the 1970s at least, since solid state began to dominate the market.

BTW, to add to my outrageous claims there is a review published in last month's Hifi+. So you can see what an allegedly independent reviewer thinks.

This kind of thread is the reason I spend less and less time on Audiogon. My best, MrD.

I am here on the parking but he text me that he will not be here soon...😊😊😊

@hilde45 and @mahgister go out on a parking lot and settle it. Oh and record it for TikTok and send us a link. 

Im a big fan of running tubes in the pre-amp and SS for power. Currently running ARC ref6se with Parasound JC1+ blocks for power. I just love what they both bring to the party. I run JC1+ in low Bias settting (10W class A) during summer time and normal setting during winter (25W class A) The latter is where the amps sounds their best!

it’s only your opinion that tubes are better.   They are better at wasting electricity, heating your room, and adding distortion.  Your question is similar to why are computers so popular when pen and paper are better.  Or  why do they sell so many cars and trucks when sleighs and ox carts are better 

This thread was clearly designed by the OP to be provocative trolling.

bingo -- look at the history of what this op username has posted, in terms of new threads...  the topics, the questions, are inane

@elliottbnewcombjr Wrote:

PREFERRING something (tube equipment) does not mean it is BETTER.

True!

Mike

Tubes vs. ss.  Next up, “are expensive cables worth it?” , then “digital vs analogue”, “cd vs streaming”, “what is the best X?”, “measurements vs. listening”, etc. ad nauseam.  It’s just trolling by novices.

You answered your own question.

Your headline should move the word "is" two places to the right and remove the question mark.

"Why solid state IS more popular when tubes are better.

Just say'n.

I had been a tube guy for over 40 years and never entertained the thought of a SS amp until a few years ago.   I decided in retirement I was going to fully investigate the possibility of switching to a high quality SS integrated.   I did end up buying a really nice quality SS integrated and I am very pleased with the switch.  My integrated is very musical and surprisingly I don't miss my tube gear at all.

@roxy54

If we limit this to sound quality I will answer.

Back in the late 1980s I did a day's auditioning with a friend.  Between us we had a lot of mainly Audio Research and Krell gear - one all valve, the other solid state.

We consistently found that valve pre-amps with transistor power amps did the business.  Krell pre-amps were notably grainy.  But Musical Fidelity's first product 'The Preamp' was SS and gave an SP10 a run for its (much much greater) money.

I have remembered that ever since and have stuck to tube front-end and SS power.  Mainly AR and for nearly 40 years Krell KRS200.  Oe recent deviation has been The Grail, the SS phono amp from vdHul, which sounds wonderful to my ears.

Solid State is for The Masses...

Tubes for the Rest of Us.

My stable of tube amps is down to a Sonic Frontier SFS-80, and Allnic M-3000 Mk. 2's.  SS amps include Bryston 7B, Krell 300, Nad M33, Topping LA90 (to see what the hype was about), and I have a local tech putting together an amp with the latest Purifi modules for me (mainly to help him out). Like most I have had Macs pass through, Pass as well.

In my main system where I have the Lyngdorf, if I set it to flat, the tube amps are unmistakably different. They don't sound the same as each other either. The solid state amps sound pretty much the same, until you push them hard. The Krells have a ton in reserve. If I let the Lyngdorf do its thing, the tube amps and SS amps sound surprisingly similar. They are a bit warmer still even though the bass is not quite as good. If I cross the mains over at 80Hz, the difference gets even smaller.  (We had long lock-downs up here in Canada!). Then I looked at the correction data from the Lyngdorf. It was the same for the solid state amps, but different for the tube amps. It should have been obvious, but till you see it in your room, you don't expect the response to be that different for a tube amp.

The Allnics are art, and the Sonic Frontiers is part of Canadian history, so I don't think I will part with them, but they are relegated to less used systems, though with entertaining, the Allnics are getting used more. Tube amps are conversation starters.

I would posit that SS can sound "tubey" My Yamaha AS2200 is pure analogue. Sounds very good and may I say has a tube like quality.

For starters,

Less electricity.

Less heat.

Less maintenance.

I love the sound of tubes, but the deal breaker for me is hearing guys talk about putting in new tubes and how they sound "dramatically better."  Okay.  Then it follows that before you replaced them your system must have sounded dramatically worse.  Worrying about that would seriously detract from my listening enjoyment.

@clearthinker 

I'm with you. This thread was clearly designed by the OP to be provocative trolling.

I suggest Y'all listen to the Beatles song "We can work it out", just once.

+1 @elliottbnewcombjr. Also perhaps reliability, and the type of program material

Tubes are better for those who leave price tags on their gear as subtle reminders of just how much was spent on said gear and then subsequently how much is spent on replacement "collector audiophile grade" tubes one must have.Only here at AG do you get serious questions and comments relevant to pure audiophile level attainment which can only be achieved past a certain undefined but pricey level of cost. I for instance would not consider a replacement tube if it was under 3g. That way I know I am getting the best.

When we dont like someone posts , we pass over it... We dont write what you just wrote because as you said: it is pathetic...

by the way the only one dominating this thread is Ralph the designer of Atmasphere with his expert opinion about S.S. design , tubes design, and class D design... Not the relatively ignorant me in these three design matters choices and trade-off ... 😊

You are now dominating this thread. Replying very often and often with a lot of words. After being away for so long, now the thread is flooded with your words. Well, maybe this makes people happy. Not me, but it’s a free forum, so go ahead and fill these threads with your words.

@ianb52 made the point I was going to make. No one really talks about transient response when it comes to this argument. Solid state is much better at providing the power needed for rapid transient response or low bass control. At least in my limited experience. I am no engineer so keep that in mind. Play a few tracks by London Grammar on each type of amp and tell me which produces their music better.

Why does one have to be better than the other? They both have their advantages and disadvantages. Maybe you should listen to something created by a good designer of transistors to educate your bias. Just look at Nelson pass, I guess he will never be successful for using transistors.  

Bald statement with little evidence.

This is trolling.  IGNORE

Atmasphere manufactures Class D amps to so he's invested in the technology (I haven't heard his Class D mono amps but I imagine they sound fine) so there's that, and although he claims they measure like tube amps, I'm not sold. I switch from an allegedly "tube sounding" Pass XA-25 to my single ended tube amp from time to time (currently using the tube amp) and there's some magic in those tubes...they're different...the tube magic might be from distortion (I use very efficient speakers so the amp never works very hard) but so what...I like it. I also like the XA-25. A lot. Maybe I'll hear Ralph's monos someday...anybody want to loan me a pair?

Ahem....*clears keys v. throat, which y'all wouldn't hear anyway...*

A little virtual demo....*s*

I have 2 stakes at hand, and a large primitive mallet in hand.  The ss and tube entities are trussed, unable to escape.

*Drives stakes into both....(sorry y'all miss the choreography involved in doing the driving simultaneously, but....a bit of forced mind expansion is good for one....)*

...well, we used to cop that as an excuse for the '60s' into the early '70s', but you get my drift.....;)   😏

There.....task complete....

Now...*jerks stakes out; the entities tremble, and rise up and return to biting the random individuals in the scattering crowd.....zombie-like, they turn to bite those still stunned by the whole event...*

See?  Not a damn thing has changed, the ss zombies are a bit more quick about it so their numbers increase faster....

The tube zombies are more limited, but they don't move as fast.  I think it's a 'warm up' issue....🤷‍♂️

There's is a small group that's getting bit simultaneously....but they're a little confused for the time being....need to watch over them.... *G* ;)

@mahgister ....to wit... ;)

Hilde45 do you suffer from a mental problem with my presence here?

*L*  If anyone should ask that, I think it ought to be me...*vaguely distracted look, having sat on one of the stakes...*

MRI & CT scan analysi came back....CT showed arthritis in my neck...probably from that bunch that tried to string me up with string...(idiots couldn't find their way out of a wet Kraft bag...), the MRI showed the typ deteriorata from age and my left sinus was blocked (which I knew going in...), but the 'funny music' it made has changed me Forever....

....just have to wait 'n see if it was a Good one....or a Badd one.....

Meanwhile....Y'all....Look, Pay ATTENTION....*shesh*

Enjoy what boats your float....sumptin' like that, anyhew....

*drifting off into the distance....*   ...don't make me 'demo again'....it'll just get messier....

...chow ....

Same reason as class A. Maintenance and cost

@emergingsoul have you arrived at this conclusion based on your personal experience? Would you mind sharing? What amps are we talking about?