I have heard in an extremely expensive system, through £75 000 Speakers Soulution Amplification, and a Very Expensive 211 Valve Power Amp design.
Along with these in the same day od demonstrations I have been demonstrated DIY OTL Amps, a DIY SS Monoblock Amp which was Two Power Supplies and Two Output Modules and a Monoblock Design of a DIY Built Neurochrome Amp.
Each was able to impress in the system, some were noticeably different, but were able to present very well due to the Speakers matching very well.
From recollection for the Money and Performance on offer, the Neurochrome won the day, it was hard to suggest the Soulution Power Amp's were a better performance, using the limited time for each demo'.
I have been demonstrated a selection of DIY Built Neurochrome Amp's since, from the lowest powered model to the maximum powered model. These are extremely competent and have my full endorsement. I have even suggested they may become my retired years when I put the Valve Amp's in the System to bed for good.
Baloney to a couple of posts here...there are plenty of inexpensive tube amps out there that I’d wager are far superior in every way to cheap SS amps...I owned a Jolida 502 tube power amp for years and it sounded magnificent relative to some well regarded SS amps I’d owned...my bought used but 3 month old Dennis Had single ended pentode tube amp is world class...got it a few years ago for 1100 bucks or so. Also, your speakers don’t know what kind of amp they’re getting and unless they’re very inefficient they’ll likely sound great with even an inexpensive tube amp, relative to mediocre SS. My original version Schiit Freya preamp allows bypassing the tubes (no other preamp I know of does this) which I find useful simply to see if the tubes are wearing out, which is a good thing. I currently rotate my Had amp with a brilliant Pass XA-25 and both are astonishingly good and surprisingly similar in tone since Nelson Pass likes his Class A amps to be "tube like."
I have heard that most speaker designs are built to deal with solid-state amplifiers. Add that buying a tube amp does not flourish with modern day speakers. Wish I could recall specifics as to why this is. Maybe someone else does.
When you see 4 ohm nominal speakers with average to low efficiency (~90dB a Watt and below) - yeah, those are more likely to have been designed for SS. It’s not that tube amps can’t handle 4 ohms, it’s just the practical matter that most SS amps significantly increase their rated power output when you go from 8 ohm to 4 ohm loads. Tube amps have a hard time keeping up with that (tube Watts are NOT more powerful than SS Watts), so if the speaker maker knows his market he’s probably going to design more with SS in mind.
I have heard that most speaker designs are built to deal with solid-state amplifiers. Add that buying a tube amp does not flourish with modern day speakers. Wish I could recall specifics as to why this is. Maybe someone else does.
There's a wide spectrum of sonics & performance in both SS and tube amps. You have to get specific about topologies and models to make any meaningful generalizations other than @atmasphere's (Ralph) very interesting and smart categorization of power paradigm (tubes) versus voltage paradigm (solid state) amps. Sometimes a speaker design will prefer one or the other. First research your speaker and audiophiles' experiences with amp parings.
My Tannoys are in the middle - they can thrive on SS or tubes. I have a Phison A2.120SE that really turned me around on solid state amps. It's not "romantic" per say, but it's surprisingly sweeter and smoother sounding than the Rogue Audio tube amps - while providing the incredible speed an separation. I didn't know SS (class AB even) could have a midrange like this. The my VAC200iQ tube amps (a pair run as monos) are voiced to the "romantic" side but still very powerful, extended, and detailed. They're sweeter than the Phison, but only just. Then the Rogue Apollo Darks (250 tube Watts per side) excel at macro dynamics and slam; you might mistake them for SS given most of their sonic attributes.
In the past I've also had classic (restored) vintage tube amps - Heathkit W4, W5, Eico HF-87. And those are wonderful classic tube sound - but here too there are significant sonic differences between models. Romantic beautiful tone, fun sound, and they don't particularly sound rolled off either.
@juanmanuelfangioiiIs there a misunderstanding going on, do you assume I am an individual without an interest in tube amplification?
Where there is room to differ is that SS being just OK is very subjective as a statement.
The preference for a design is unique to each individual, 'each to their own', when it comes down to how a Schematic and Topology leaves an impression on a person.
I find this post most rewarding to read for the manner in which each post was written and the the content contained within directed at individuals not having the knowledge base most of you have. Very informative! Thanks to all for your insightful comments.
@aseaman007-- I have just read through your original question and most of the response post and have this question for you. What if any audio equipment do you have now and about how much money do you plan to spend? Because, really good tube equipment tends to cost many thousands of dollars, whereas really good SS equipment can be had for a lost less. Just thought that I would ask, to see how serious you were.
Love my Tube Integrated: X200. Listen to SS while working. Each has its nuances and qualities. Tubes are more soulful to me. Like my tubed guitar amplifiers.
No mistaking the sound of a V8 car, V-Twin or V Four motorcycle, Radial engine aircraft, tube amplifier, all sound so sweet!
With over 50 years in this hobby, I have had more pleasure with the tube gear I have owned than the solid state .... so that must mean something. A couple of points worth mentioning though.
#1 Tube watts seem to drive speakers better than SS watts. Most of the tube amps I haver had that were in the 40-50 watt per channel range drove my speakers better than SS amps with double that rated power.
#2 The output tube can effect the sound. I happen to like an EL 34 tube better than a KT88 in most amps I have owned that can use either and that has been consistent from amp to amp. Others may prefer KT88s but to me they can have more of a solid state sound than an EL34. Of course low powered 300b tubed amps are another beast.
#3 Most modern amp manufacturers, because of their largish production, must rely on currently manufactured tubes they can buy in quantity and although some of them are very decent, often older tubes, made in the heyday of tube manufacturing, can elevate the performance of many modern production amps. My preamp and power amps I currently use have ZERO current production tubes in them.
A Tube and a Transistor that superseded it, both have specific role to play in a topology belonging to the signal path, there is a sonic trait that can be described as being quite similar to both of these designs when the Topology and Circuit Design is well executed.
As a result of the limits to the role a Valve or Transistor is to fulfill, there is a detection of a difference to a sonic, when compared to a more modern design that is using parts such as Semi-Conductors that have superseded both Tubes and Transistors.
The Semi-Conductor has a multi-function role, which is specified through circuit design, to more than one role in a topology. It is this multi-role that has a noticeable sonic trait in comparison to a Tube or Transistor Amplifier.
It could be said the more the Semi-Conductor is competing for the multi-function within the working circuit, the more the Sonic Trait from the part in use is noticed.
Listening thru a tube amplifier is still partially solid state. What do you think your streamer, DAC and other components are made from? Even within the tube amplifier the signal passes thru capacitors and resistors.
The difference is a tube amplifier is usually a transformer coupled design. No solid state amp I have ever heard be it for hifi or guitar amps truly emulates a transformer coupled tube sound. In the guitar world millions of dollars have been spent trying to do it with solid state and digital emulation. But never truly accomplishing that.
The main difference I hear with solid state is compression of the signal. A flattening of the sound stage.
I suppose there can be a more technical explanation of how electrons jump from the hot element inside a tube versus how they move within a solid state transistor that impacts the tone of the signal but I would not be able to speak to that with any certainty.
Let us not forget that ALL recordings are PROCESSED and have some relationship to the actual "live" performance, but not all of it.
In the "old days," this processing took place on TUBE recording gear since that was all that was available. When more sophisticated recording equipment became available, many times it was solid-state based.
SO, any recording you are listening to has the "imprint," if you will, of the recording engineer, the producer, the band members or orchestra director, and possibly others (marketing) in its final form.
A simple example would be that in the 1960's, "pop" recordings were "mixed down" so that they "sounded good" on car radio speakers, which, in those days, were not exactly designed to reproduce accurate performances, but instead were going for a "sound" that would "sell." (Buddy Holly is credited for "producing" his own music because he did not believe that a record company producer could create the "sound" that he had in his head.)
This is not necessarily "good" or "bad" but it is anything but "accurate." About the best you can do for that is to get some master tapes, which, if modern, have been "mixed down" from 64-tracks (possibly) to 4 tracks to play on a home reel-to-reel deck. You might also want to play some direct-to-disc vinyl recordings like those made by Lincoln Mayorga et. al. in the 1970's. There are probably others out there as well, but this is a difficult and expensive process, so you don't get many and yes, even those are "processed" to some degree.
So, buy what SOUNDS GOOD to you IN YOUR ROOM and don't worry so much about the electronics. For ME, personally, ARC tube HW playing through properly set-up Magneplaner speakers is the closest to "accurate" when reproducing processed music. Everyone has their own idea of this, thus the myriad number of companies producing home audio gear.
Everyone always brings up the distortion profile of tube equipment, which is generally true but triodes are also more linear that solid state devices, with simple designs fewer parts count.
I think it depends on your definition of "romantic" and other factors, such as personality types, venue, and where the specific "romantic" element is positioned on the classic sine wave of the evening's total love-making cycle.
I'll give tubes a definite advantage during dinner and foreplay. After that, there are simply too many varibles to reach a solid conclusion, IMHO. I'd use the common "thumbs up" term here for vaccum tubes but there are, most likely, other things that are "up" during this segment besides just thumbs.
The age and energy levels of participants could swing the pendulum one way or the other. Also, whether one is an analytical chess player, or a "score right now" hockey player could be factors.. As for intensity, I can't explain why but the terms "slew rate" and "dampening factor" pop into my head, giving solid state the advantage. And, yes, the venue. An AirBNB is quite different than tent camping (both of which have zero chance of having a vacuum tube amplifier near by), so a solid state (most likely a Bluetooth speaker) will be the winner by default.
In summary, I tend to be neutral on the tubes vs SS debate, and I'm sure either can rise to the occassion when called upon.
In my view, a lot of this discussion gets sidetracked by ambiguous language.
If two people sing an octave apart -- or a 5th apart -- it sounds lovely, doesn't it? Would you call that "distorted", from an aesthetic standpoint? Probably not. But compared to a single voice, it is "distorted" from a technical standpoint.
It's weird, isn't it for something that sounds mellifluous and pleasing to also be distorted? That weirdness comes from the ambiguity of the aesthetic meaning of "distorted" and the engineering/measurement meaning of "distorted." But they're not the same thing.
Is a tube amp distorted, then? Technically, "yes," and aesthetically, "no" -- if you like that kind of aesthetic effect.
Here's something useful from Tung Sol:
"The harmonic content of an overdriven tube amplifier consists primarily of 2nd order and 3rd order harmonics with some 4th order harmonics. The harmonic content of an overdriven transistor amplifier is primarily 3rd order with suppressed 2nd order harmonics. 2nd and 3rd order harmonics are the most important from a viewpoint of electronic distortion. Musically the 2nd harmonic is an octave above the fundamental and is almost inaudible, yet it adds body to the sound, making it fuller. The 3rd harmonic is a musical 12th. Instead of making the tone fuller, a strong 3rd harmonic makes the tone softer. The odd harmonics (3rd, 5th, etc.) produce a "stopped" or "covered" sound. The even harmonics (2nd, 4th, etc.) produce a "choral" or "singing" sound. Adding a 5th to a strong 3rd harmonic give the sound a metallic quality that gets annoying in character as the amplitude increases. A strong 2nd with a strong 3rd harmonic tends to open the "covered" effect. Adding the 4th and 5th harmonics to this gives an "open horn" character. The higher harmonics, above the 7th, give the tone "edge" or "bite."
Having just spent 2 days at Capital Audio Fest and having been in the hobby for 40ish years I continue to be surprised by astonishingly expensive systems that are hell bent on detail retrieval to the point that the individual sounds are so disconnected that it is no longer music and has zero emotional impact. I'll stay with my ole 300Bs thank you; noting that implementation of design and synergy with the balance of the system is key to producing actual music.
@aseaman007 For many the objective is to reproduce accurately the original performance. The original performance many have been 'romantic'. If you are listening to single-ended, there will be distortion. Some people like it but they may not be interested in reproducing the original sound. Buy what moves you.
What is everyone's take on hybrid integrated amps? I traded in an older McIntosh solid state integrated amp for a McIntosh hybrid. The dealer explained that tubes were better for the preamp stage and solid state as for the power output, like getting the benefits of both. My system sound great. Even tube-heavy Prima Luna now offers a hybrid integrated amp.
Not always. Right SS match is hard to beat with tubes. I do have old Mcintosh MC-2255 with C-33 and I think will be very hard to find tube match with sweeter and romantic sound how you said.
In the seventies, I started out with tube amps & preamps. Then I kept the tube preamp, but went to a SS amp. Then I went all Hafler preamps and amps. Then I went back to all tube, until last year. For the first time, I went Class AB, SS integrated and have been very happy. However, I have a lead on some PS Audio BHK 300 mono blocks and they are a tube SS hybrid.
Grab a tube when it's running full tilt and see how "romantic" that feels.
Tubes have been romanticized for some reason, using terms like "warm" (any coincidence a tube is warm when it's operating?) and it continues to this day.
A classic mix is a very detailed music SS amp with a natural perspective
with the latest Mosfets, Fet, and Bipolor transistors they have in part a vacuum tube characteristic to them , but adding a vacuum tube preamp gives you the
added bloom of a vacuum tube to create a great blend , also
your front end is IMO as important as the Loudspeaker , a quality R2R dac has a very analog natural character ,finally very good quality digital is as good and in some ways better especially in S/N , ratio and distortion levels vs a turntable
turntables like vacuum tubes have a nice warm character , but not as accurate and bottom end digital is clearly better. Records are better recorded but severely limited . With digital you cannot skimp anywhere or it sounds thin or brittle if not a top recording a minimum of $12 k for dac, Ethernet hub , and digital cables minimum to get B+ quality Denafrips Terminator+ 12 th anniversary I have not heard but even better, and Holosprings May KTE Are by far the best value in the $6k range and best anything out there at 2x the cost .i am not a big China fan but these are exceptions to the rule . Turntables much more variables and cost much more monies to better digital of this quality . I just thought it should be mentioned .
While both can sound fantastic in a good system, with SS you can set it and forget it. With tube amps, you run the risk of falling down the rabbit hole is changing tubes in the endless pursuit of the perfect sound. I speak from experience. I love the look & sound of tubes, I love the sound and ease of SS.
Harmonic distortion. "Golden age" studio outboard has made a major comeback in the post digital era as engineers try to put back what they lost from analogue tape in terms of distortion..
Its way more complex than that but, and forgive the generalisation, but tube amps with lots of even harmonic distortion tend to sound "romantic".
That is true. Yeas ago I tried a Pass Aleph 3 and it sounded awesome. My speakers were a poor match Plus it ran hot as hell so at the time it wasn’t for me.
Class A SS can be just as ‘romantic’ as 2A3 or 300B driven electronics. Not all electronics (pre or amp) with tubes are romantic sounding. The key is implementation and designers pedigree in both topologies.
Now good tube gear can have it all (almost) , wide flat frequency response that was not possible in the past. I've had all , SS. a mix of Tube and SS, and all tube. Itend to prefer what tubes can do in my system with my speakers.
Like others have said, its the way they distort and the fact they sof clip when you push them. Poor matching of speaker to a tube amp will not be so romantic....
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