why do so many discussions turn contentious?

@hickamore 1952 Vincent Black Lightning


brilliant use of the Lyric dude

my best to you

jim

Dr. Johnson, quoted above, had it right. Discord happens because all human activities are managed by fallible humans -- beings described in all literature as often cranky, forgetful, envious, stubborn, spiteful, petty, boastful, vengeful . . .  excepting only those few Almargs with never a harsh word, never a personal mission or grievance, ever eager to listen/read, slow to speak/write. But their kind are rare in here -- because "here" is a forum of ENTHUSIASTS! The kind of folk who say "Nortons and Indians and Greavses won't do!" Enthusiasts are ENTHUSIASTIC!. Those tubes suck! A pox on Mark Levinson! And so forth ad infinitum. And yet, I learn from this stuff. Even the snarkiness can be pretty damned amusing. So let enthusiasts be enthusiasts, lean back and watch the parade, don't blame humans for their natural human frailties, never lose your sense of humor, and be willing to laugh at yourself when necessary.

it is easy, folks....play nice and follow the golden rule....this is not a pissing contest, "mine is bigger/better/more expensive than yours"....if you dont have something nice or constructive to say, simply dont say anything....if you wish to disagree, please remember the largely subjective nature of audio, and be polite, as if you were sitting with the person you are chatting with.....EASY BREEZY!!

I have always been impressed by the amount of knowledge and passion for audio and music expressed in these forums.  I like how people are willing to share their experiences with others.  This is true when I first joined (2000?) and it's still true today.  I think the OP's question is a little Pollyanna-ish in that there's always been heated discussions, sometimes respectful and courteous, but frequently childish and mean spirited.  It's never been perfect.

What encourages me about this thread is the number of people who have contributed who have low posting counts.  Is it possible that there's a vast silent majority of forum users?  I have 4,000 some odd posts, but it's taken me twenty years to reach that total.  My post are always highly intelligent, insightful, technically astute, historically accurate and built on a foundation of unassailable logic, but even I wonder if I really had 4,000+ things to say about audio and music.  Yet I've also noticed that some user(s) have multiples of my total posts, but have only been posting for two years.  Is it actually possible for someone to have 15,000 things to say that are worth saying within two years?  The obvious answer is no.  The easiest solution for dealing with people who really don't have anything worthy to contribute is to just ignore them.  You see their names multiple times in a thread -- don't read the thread.  In the long run you'll be happier.

It’s because people that exist primarily online have almost zero consequences for their cowardly bullying  responses. They enjoy their “ virtual” power and most likely are miserable souls. They try to politicize anything. I bet most of them in person do not act that way. Jekyl in person and Hyde online. All of my hobbies with online forums have become like this in the last decade or so. Years ago when I first started seeing “ what is the best” forums I knew we were in trouble. Somehow winning has infiltrated everything in our culture.

I still love this forum

Our lack of social evolution also tied much to our physical natures, testosterone and alpha wars.

Well, it’s the first of Seven Deadly Sins. The Vainglory. Some people just like to feel themselves gurus, they collect enormous amounts of information, almost never implement this information practically or even theoretically but they think they are gurus and they know all answers. When you try to question their opinion or deny their teaching, discussion usually goes nasty way. 

It's much easier to insult than contribute. To contribute to a discussion takes work, time, effort to type it out.  Trolls only need one sentence, maybe even one word to derail the discussion. Trolls attack anything that someone cares about.  That's the entire modus operandi. It has become entertainment for them.

I haven't been here long, but I already discovered what the troll's motive on this forum is.  The idea is to get you so frustrated that you either quit the site and it becomes theirs, or get you mad enough to say things that get you banned. Either way, they win.

I have already gotten threats in Private Messages because they know they cannot make them in the open forum without getting banned themselves.

With that said, as audio forums go, this is actually the tamest I have come across.

Humans are clever and inventive, thus humankind evolves in the technical sense. Socially, we've likely not evolved more than five minutes. Someday, if we're clever enough may invent robots who'd be rid of us.
Also, for far too many, this human life on earth is consciously temporal, the perfect afterlife is just around the corner, why waist your time trying to make this mortal plane a better place.

I agree.  I thought this was a forum set up to share knowledge and for those who want to learn more to ask questions.  Instead, when someone asks a question someone seeks an opportunity to strike make them feel stupid for asking a question.  Eventually, those who are seeking knowledge become afraid to ask another question.  I think the moderator who notices these responses should warn that individual to stop.  If after that warning they do it again they should be removed.

sgreg1255 posts09-19-2021 8:47amIt is the way of the “new world reset”. I liked to watch sit coms until they turned into social engineering so I quit watching them. I liked to watch sports as a get away for all the political bs on the news and tv. As soon as sports brought in the politics thanks to espn I quite watching sports. Whats left music, yes we all know through history musicians have made political statements but the difference was that music was trying to unite the people to push back against a tyrannical government. Difference now is that instead of uniting they are intent in dividing us and most modern musicians are now supporting the tyrannical governments. Case in point U2 I use to enjoy their music but tried to watch a concert and turned it off 30 min in. Was not going to listen to a billionaire tell me that everything in the world is my fault because I have worked my ass off to be where I am today and I do not want to give my hard earned earning to dead beats or billionaire politicians. I do enjoy this forum and when a link turns I just move on to the next one. Once there is no next one I will be done with the forum!


Angry old man alert.

Say builder3, I don't at all share your take on the No Noise comment.  Please read his/her first paragraph again.  Nowhere is disagreement itself (like we are having here) called out.  Nope...as I see it, the focus in this case is meant to be on those whose writings clearly demonstrate that they are all about themselves, performers of sorts before an audience of faceless foils.  The medium in this case just happens to be an Audiogon forum.  Anyway, Happy Listening, all!

 From 'The Horse Has Left The Barn', Chapter 1...

"I doubt my writing this will change anything, but, like most social media, people writing to others without facing them does not bring out the best, sadly......"

@jw

.perhaps I am optimistic in thinking we have achieved a small step in that direction?

I’m going to be optimistic myself. Thanks for starting the thread and raising the self-awareness.

@jw944ts

i believe your initial post has stirred good discussion and served us all with a reminder to behave better here

@danager

re your q on the sonnet morpheus, pls search my posts from about a month back, i compared it to the doge 7, audio mirror tubador and the chord stack in a fairly detailed post describing each as i heard them

@hilde45 @whipsaw @tvad

excellent observations and a good reminder how we should manage our own urges to pile on when there are contentious posts

@tomic601

thank you jim, you are kind... the pursuit has helped me stay sane through the pandemic

I actually think there are (at least) two root causes.
One is people who are somehow angry and take things off topic to rant. Those are pretty transparent and to me therefore, less troublesome. Since they are so far off topic, easily ignored entirely.  Of course the OP gets a bit screwed...

The 2nd is people who,rather than give facts and reasoned advice, throw out "this product" (which is always their product, in which they are apparently invested psychologically?). Defensiveness ensues. And if someone brings reason and logic to such a conversation, hey are branded  as [insert opposite of one's philosophy].

Kinda sad. I'd liek to see people establish the basis of their suggestion, with caveats, supporting ideas, etc.  We could all then **learn**. But as Steve Martin said after spouting enlightenment in the midst of medievil medicine, "nah......"

'later

Men like to argue! Must be genetic!

@tomic601 ,

"i am not a Bot, noway they would drink as much as i do…"

You’ve obviously not met Bender from Futurama!

It is the way of the “new world reset”. I liked to watch sit coms until they turned into social engineering so I quit watching them. I liked to watch sports as a get away for all the political bs on the news and tv. As soon as sports brought in the politics thanks to espn I quite watching sports. Whats left music, yes we all know through history musicians have made political statements but the difference was that music was trying to unite the people to push back against a tyrannical government. Difference now is that instead of uniting they are intent in dividing us and most modern musicians are now supporting the tyrannical governments. Case in point U2 I use to enjoy their music but tried to watch a concert and turned it off 30 min in. Was not going to listen to a billionaire tell me that everything in the world is my fault because I have worked my ass off to be where I am today and I do not want to give my hard earned earning to dead beats or billionaire politicians. I do enjoy this forum and when a link turns I just move on to the next one. Once there is no next one I will be done with the forum! 

My personal opinion is that the internet (and social media especially) has empowered those whose personality disorders would have previously held them shunned.

Said another way, everybody has a poisonous uncle or neighbor that everybody knows to avoid, but on the internet there’s an endless supply and no way to avoid them. Scarier yet is that all the poisonous ones seem to find each other as kindred spirits and are emboldened.

As a society we haven’t evolved fast enough to keep up with it.

All blogs contain some vicious people, empowered by the anonymous nature of it. I learned long ago, through blogs other than audiogon, to simply ignore them. It actually carries much more weight than arguing with them. They do not like to be ignored :)
If you let them get to you, find another way to communicate than through blogs is my advice. 

well, the point of my question/original post, was to hopefully raise some consciousness about this "pattern of the times", not thinking of curing it, but hoping to make all participants somewhat thoughtful about how and what they write here....perhaps I am optimistic in thinking we have achieved a small step in that direction?

Through technology we have become an impersonal world where minimal face to face human interaction dominates. Basic manners are not required.  Heck, the basic respect and civility required for face to face interactions barely exists in the real world anymore, and definitely not on this or other forums.  There are very few forums that do not devolve into name calling or cheap shots. There are no consequences for doing so. 

Everyone involved in name calling or posting cheap shots blames the other posters.  I cringe as I read some of the posts on this forum. 

Each of these forums are populated with persons that came to that forum in the first place because of the same interest.  So stop the cycle. Post your opinion respectfully without the cheap shot.  Simple.

 

Here are some quotes to ponder.

“Through a vicious circle of pure reason skepsis itself becomes dogma.”  Johann Georg Hamann German philosopher

“No man burdens his mind with small matters unless he has some very good reason for doing so.”   Arthur Conan Doyle

“The reason that university politics is so vicious is that the stakes are so small.” Attributed to Henry Kissinger.

 

Apply any of these quotes to any hobbyist forum. This forum is not alone in the devolving rhetoric. Only we can change it.  Not the moderators.

Audio opinions are like a**holes, everybody has one. And being semi anonymous noboby is afraid to voice their "ideas".

First, I have to send a BIG THANK YOU to whipsaw for that hilarious Louis CK bit! In less than 3 minutes that bit summarizes most of the ills of humanity, many of which have been touched upon in this thread. Humor is, often times, the best teacher.

With regard to the original premise, however, I guess I respectfully  disagree. Maybe this is because I'm a relative newbie to this forum and haven't encountered anywhere near that level of contentiousness in the threads I've followed. Thus far, for the most part, I've found this forum to be very helpful. I've received generally good, well intentioned guidance from folks who genuinely want to be helpful and selflessly share their experiences and expertise. Sometimes, that guidance and assistance has been outstanding! There are, of course, those who are occasionally snarky, bad-tempered and not inclined to lend assistance at all; those who just want to crow about the superiority of their equipment and their perceived expertise and/or intelligence. In so doing, folks like this accomplish nothing other than exposing their inferiority complex.

Through technology we have become an impersonal world where minimal face to face human interaction dominates. Basic manners are not required.  Heck, the basic respect and civility required for face to face interactions barely exists in the real world anymore, and definitely not on this or other forums.  

There are very few forums that do not devolve into name calling or cheap shots. There are no consequences for doing so.  Everyone involved in name calling or posting cheap shots blames the other posters.  I cringe as I read some of the posts on this forum. Every hobbyist forum is populated with persons that came to that forum in the first place because of the same interest.  So stop the cycle. Post your opinion respectfully without the cheap shot.  Simple.  It applies to everyone on the forum.

 

Here are some quotes to ponder.

“Through a vicious circle of pure reason skepsis itself becomes dogma.”  Johann Georg Hamann German philosopher

“No man burdens his mind with small matters unless he has some very good reason for doing so.”   Arthur Conan Doyle

“The reason that university politics is so vicious is that the stakes are so small.” Attributed to Henry Kissinger.

 

Apply any of these quotes to any hobbyist forum. This forum is not alone in the devolving rhetoric. Only we can change it.  Not the moderators.

It’s a good question, OP, why some feel a need to create contention and acrimony, especially when the thread is about a fairly innocuous topic.

The need to react (as @oldhyvvy pointed out) is now leaps and bounds beyond where it was. Everyone needs their squirt of dopamine, and rather than remain silent about a topic about which they’re ignorant, they poke at others. Gotta get that reaction. It seems like they know what they’re doing, but it’s a chemical addiction, under the surface.

Then again, it could be a kind of self-loathing, frustration at not really having something to contribute to a topic, but unable to resist the impulse to get in the mix, anyway. Causing trouble out of boredom and perhaps inner frustration with their own lack of information, insight, intellect? These are the posters who "blurt" things nearly all the time. I imagine them in the stands at a sports game, yelling stuff. Nothing more rattling around their head except the last Big Gulp soda.

(As long as we're quoting famous authors, Nietzsche called the attitude 'ressentiment.')

"A vengeful, petty-minded state of being that does not so much want what others have (although that is partly it) as want others to not have what they have….Ressentiment is more fully defined as the desire to live a pious existence and thereby position oneself to judge others, apportion blame, and determine responsibility."

Needless to say, the phenomenon is hardly confined to this forum. Fundamentally, most users of internet forums behave very differently than they would in person. By way of analogy, I find this brief Louis CK bit to be both on point, and very funny:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8062QEFk5g

Nothing wrong with disagreements, of course, but how people disagree can make an enormous difference in how conversations unfold, and culminate.

Showing restraint and being polite can be a challenge for many. I have struggled myself at times to dial back aggression, be more patient, and avoid coming off as arrogant. The simplest tool that I have found is to stop and think about whether I would say whatever I am about to post to the face of the person to whom I am responding. If the answer isn't an easy "yes", I'm inclined to edit, and dial back the response.

@Georgewhyfi

I am trying to be yours.

I didn't ask for it, don't need it, don't want it.

By removing those redundant apostrophes.

Unfortunately it is a symptom of the digital world. People who would not normally say boo to a goose, are probably henpecked by their partners, put them behind a computer or some other device where they can hide from the real world, they suddenly become what they believe is brave and pour scorn and vitriol on others because they are anonymous.

you are not our saviour.

I am trying to be yours, as you obviously believe in 10cent $200 fuses and that they can be directional in an AC main path🙏.

@georgehifi

It's one thing to stick up to get the honest truth against some of the "snake oil" products here and to warn against them, but to start just slinging s**t at each other for no reason

That's the pot calling the kettle...
What you refer to is 'your truth' George.

I suggest you get off your high horse; you are not our saviour. 
Or you could always continue slinging your bile, which you are renowned for.

It's "gasbagism," where pretentious "experts" assume everyone thinks they're a genius and they weave anything into the conversation that supports this self obsession that only the truly insecure can display. From injecting whacky politics to yammering about how cool they think they are in their personal world with unassailable taste...sort of pollutes  the stream.

I think the pandemic definitely is one contributing factor, as people are venting their building frustrations that COVID is nurturing.  Another reason is that for decades, the world in general, and the U.S. more specifically, is becoming less of a "WE" society and more of a "ME" society, and More and More, MY opinion, MY rights, are becoming more and more important that YOUR rights and opinions. And, if you disagree with me, you are a blankety blank S...O...B...who deserves the wrath of Hell brought down upon you.  Okay, that's a bit of an exaggeration, for now at least.  But you catch my drift.

There are lots of jerks everywhere....why would this site be any different? Coincidentally, there have been a few videos posted to you tube about audiophile jerk/snobs just recently.

Not a lot of people are truly nice.
The world was never that way. This site is not any different.

Social media can certainly put a stark light on our fragile egos. I’ve had a few people go at me here. I have thick skin so I mostly just feel embarrassed for them.

But there’s a lot of useful information here and some wisdom and some great humor.
It keeps me interested.

I will say this. And I hate to say it. The behavior on this site, is worse than most.

@jjss49 
Off topic but not really as contentious is just  noise until something comes about that you feel passionate about.

I saw your Sonnet Morpheus DAC on your systems page.  I've read about it but any comments about it you'd like to share?

I hope I'm not an angry old man. Getting old, but in the process, seem to have less and less to get angry about, at least as relates to the topics relevant to this forum. 

Mostly a lurker, curious to learn, but from observation these two stand out 1) snarky, political non sequiturs such as: "It’s the liberals" and 2) allowing the one contributor to repeatedly hijack treads with condescending gibberish about Tektons.  It's tedious, loses readers and should not be indulged to the degree it is here.

Almarg seems like a sage. Too bad I missed him, Johnnie-come-lately.

Oh yeah @jjss49 Take your B. and get off my lawn

So many opinions are subjective with no measurement data to back their opinion so then it becomes an ego game where one has to denigrate other's opinion in order to show that your opinion is the one others should listen to.

“why do so many discussions turn contentious?”

Perhaps due to the failure to capitalize the first letter of the first word in your sentence?

@jjss49 just looked at your system page, indeed so many permutations of musical presentation ;-) My highest compliments on your sojurn

Jim