What Is So Special About Harbeth?

arak- If you were producing hand-made, high end speakers in limited quantities  in

the UK, how many seconds would you produce in a year? Darn few I'd venture.

Would you ship them to the US to sell or unload them locally?

It is obvious these folks are hurting.

I agreed with many of the comments of how the Harbeth sound lacked clarity, detail and dynamics... UNTIL... I found the right electronics to drive them - which are the amps the designer demos them with - the Hegel amps.  

They are a totally different speaker with the right electronics that match their impedance and power requirements with sufficient damping to properly control their drivers.  I would not have kept them, otherwise.

If you haven't heard them with the Hegel amps, or others similar (such as the Mac MA252 SS / tube hybrid) - you haven't really heard the Harbeths.  

parts is not the best ,a lot of cheap film caps,core coils,resistors.Price abaut 15-20$ in total for one crossover.Drivers also cheap.Complex crossover helps a bit cover shortages of drivers and thin cabinet.Let say without labor cost ,the cost of 7es3 for a pair 300-400$

Some pretty funny stuff in this thread - constipated, ugly, poor soundstage, get some Klipsch instead, crappy parts...  At this point, I feel like I should use mine for firewood.  They would probably have a bad smell though with all that constipation.

@arafiq right on !!!!!

One reason why Jim T and other astute designers use a lot of parts in the filter is to tame the tanking circuits formed by natural resonance peaks of all drivers. Properly executed anti tanking parts are not in the signal path… carry on oh keyboard audiophiles….

@arafiq good one!

Love these fables, myths, urban legends.

@prof -- well said!

This reminds me of a story where there was a machine failure at a factory which caused the entire line to shut down. This would have impacted hundreds of production orders and caused severe backlogs. Everyone tried to fix it for hours but couldn't figure out how to get the machine to start again. Finally, a contractor walks in, picks up a specific type of screw, replaces the faulty screw, and gets the machine to start again. He later sends an invoice for $1000 to the factory. The manager asks, "Really? $1000 to replace a screw which probably costs $1?" To which the contractor replies, "yes, $1 to replace the screw and $999 to know which type of screw to use and where to put it."

A recent look at a Harbeth XO by GR Research found about 30 components in the XO!  Unfortunately, although this can produce a nice flat frequency response, which will satisfy potential buyers but more importantly be favourably mentioned by the reviewers, will reduce dynamics and micro-detail. Low level nuance also suffers.

This kind of stuff is often claimed in audiophile circles.  But then so is lots of "stuff."

I'd like to see this actually demonstrated, and not just by some audiophile's say-so.

If we are talking regular old anecdotal subjective listening impressions, Thiel's complex crossovers used to get grief from the "don't put too much stuff in the crossover region because blah, blah, blah" crowd.  Yet every Thiel I've had has been world class in it's price range in terms of detail, soundstaging, timbre and dynamics.

Personally I don't rely on audiophile shibboleths - the result is what matters.

And as for the parts quality in the Harbeths (which I have a fair amount of experience listening to), the results are what count.  Engineers will point out that good or clever engineering isn't just "what you can do if handed the best possible parts and budget" but rather being able to achieve excellent performance without having to rely on the most expensive parts.   Which is what Harbeth seems to have done.

Dan Richie in his videos does some interesting and entertaining and educational stuff.  But I am not inclined to ignore that he is a salesman with stuff to sell, and arguments for his own products and services,  as much as anything else.

Harbeth to me Are in the same category like Teckton they look plain ugly

This had me laugh out loud.  A classic, reserved British monitor look is not your cup of tea?  Cool.  But on the same footing as the Tectonic monstrosities?  LOL.

"To me they sound dynamically constipated"

... when paired with the wrong amplifier.

But in general I agree that a pronounced emphasis on dynamics is not what Harbeth is going for. It is well understood by its fans who prioritize other aspects of sound quality over dynamics. 

a few additional points to add to the discussion

Avoid the older models and start from SHL5+ or SHL5+ 40th Anniversary, M30.2 Anniversary, 40.1 or 40.2 Anniversary etc.

i understand the logic behind @ryder ’s statement but i think it is too strong... older models have a different tonality, but this can be managed by using the correct amp (a solid state one with good damping factor like a lower or older hegel. or belles aria, the like) and slightly brighter more open cables... older models like the compact7 es2 can be really excellent, and they are a bargain, give you so much of what is loved about harbeths for $1500-1800 a pair (plus stands) vs a grand more for es3’s and vs over 2 grand more for c7 40’s or xd’s...

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Also, as @jjss49 mentioned, there is a substantial difference between SHL5 (non-plus) and SHL5+. I often hear folks making comments on the basis of owning the non-plus model. There is no comparison. I heard the non-plus version and own the plus version. The super tweeter in SHL5+ makes a huge difference. You simply cannot extrapolate based on your impressions of the non-plus model alone.

the non plus version of the shl5 also has a super tweeter... like the c7 es2 vs es3, the crossovers were modified to reduce some midbass boom/looseness and give the treble a noticeable lift (the xd versions do some more in the same direction, but just a teeny teeny bit)

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there are those that say harbeths sound ’dead’, ’constipated’, ’dull’... this impression results from a matter of preference, how an individual hears, what that individual seeks from their hifi

to repeat what i have said in other posts, hifi for many who stick to it over the years is a journey, while loving music is a constant... most new to the hobby are amazed by the high resolution, lively, overtly detailed sound real hi-fi offers, as it differs so much from what one had experienced prior, then folks enamored with the detail chase it, spend more $ in that pursuit

some other folks always feel they want their system to reproduce the excitement and highly vivid (and very loud) nature of live music... some speakers excel at that, klipsch's, tekton's, wilsons and magicos on the higher end

over time, if one sticks with the hobby, tastes needs preferences usually evolve... it is not fun to have one’s ears ringing the next morning after hearing a live band or a concert the night before ...folks who like to enjoy music alot, in their homes daily, move away from the fatigue of a bright, forward 'live-sounding' system, and want a more ’beautiful’ and easy to listen to kind of presentation, lower volumes, the sound and level of a human voice singing without amplifiers for instance - add to that the issue of much recorded music is mixed and mastered too brightly, compensating for the fact that most listeners don't have highly resolving rigs...

at this point in one's journey is where harbeths (and their ilk - spendor classics, grahams, and so on) come in... and become beloved as a result by their owners

@ryder +1.

I think there was one typo; the 40.2 made some significant changes over the 40.1, so the regular 40.2 or anniversary 40.2 are the best places to look.

Also, just to be clear, 40.2's at least are anything but forward sounding, if anything they are a little laid back.

"To me they sound dynamically constipated"

Thanks for that comment lemonhaze, worth the read for that alone!

I've been in this hobby since the 60's and I've heard everything known to man.  I've owned horns, electrostatics and a range of dynamic speakers.  I've listened to every kind of music in every kind of room.
I'm older and wiser now.  I have a modest system with P3 esr speakers.  These speakers do everything well and are engaging and non-fatiguing.  They are plenty loud for my needs (they do need a bit of oomph to get going).
If you are looking to rock the house down and need to feel your pants flap in the breeze and want to feel the bass thump in your chest, don't get these.  If you want to be delighted with hours of engaging and fatigue free listening at reasonable volumes, put these on your short list.

Have both the 30.1’s and 40.2’s and they do sound great in all respects... when... driven by the right amplifiers - especially, the Hegel’s, which Alan Shaw demos his speakers with.

The SS Hegel amps control the woofers and mids properly, which adds clarity, detail and dynamics. Makes all the difference in the quality of their sound and elevates them more to a sound similar to Quad ESL57’s, or even close to ATC’s.

They also sound great with the Mac MA252, or MA352 tube / SS hybrids.

Though, I’d prolly still prefer the ATC’s - they’re harder to find at a reasonable price.

And... if you want something that’s much easier to drive, which can rival the sound of the Harbeths - the Klipsch Heritage line is a great option - which can sound great with some great tube amps (e.g. Line Magnetic LM 219ia, etc.). And... you can likely find them at a better price.

Biggest problem with Harbeths is that they are bulky for the bass you get. The other minus is soundstage. Otherwise so sweet. 

I spent a lot of time, with a lot of input here for a small office system.

Need speakers to go an actual bookshelf.  Wanted warm and not fatiguing.

Like others, thought the Harbeths were kind of ugly.  Especially the HL.

Went with the P3 ESR.  No regrets.

Seeing them in real life, they are beautiful and so well made.  I walk in most morning and run my hands over them.

They are musical, no fatiguing and warm with nice bass at low levels in a size appropriate way.

I am looking for another set of bookshelves for a secondary home room.  

I really wanted something not Harbeth....but I have hit the TMR b stock site about 50 times....

Nothing magic about them.  But I have a hard time thinking someone would not enjoy then.

I heard Harbeth speakers for the first time at Axpona in 2019. They were set up in one of the standard hotel rooms, and they flat out COMMANDED the room. I would say they were in the top five rooms I heard all day. It wasn't a particular characteristic, they just sounded incredible. They sounded so big in the room, and they just disappeared. Some rooms with much more expensive gear didn't even come close.

Go listen!

-Geoff

For my last round of speaker purchase (maybe 5 years ago at this point) I had Harbeth SHL5+ and 40.2 on my demo list along with Spendor, B&W, and KEF.

I was most excited to hear Harbeths as I had never heard them before. I demoed both Harbeths in a smaller room to match what I use at home (12x17) and I liked the sound of both and get why so many folks like their house sound, but for me what they don’t excel at out weighed their strengths (yes, I really liked their midrange...).

Anyhow, at that time the SHL5+ was US ~$6700+stands and the 40.2 was $14,999+stands and I thought the SHL5+ was decent value, and 40.2 relatively not so much at least in the room that size, but imagine its strengths show up more in a larger room. I ended up with Spendor D9s which had an MSRP of $10K back then and I remember at the time thinking compared to the 40.2 were pretty amazing value for a big top of the line UK built speaker, that I really liked the sound of.

Fast forward to 2021 and the Spendor D9.2 is $12K and the 40.3XD is $22.5K+stands. That is now a very big difference! I believe Spendor is made in Sussex (right?) and the D9 also has a decent surface area with fine quality wood veneer, custom drivers, etc.; and the big box Spendor Classic 100 is ~ $13K.

"That’s a straw man, as I don’t recall anyone raving about the great value of Harbeths, though they certainly can represent good value on the secondary market."

Agree wholeheartedly with this comment. Their real value is represented by the price a used or demo pair brings. One thing I have learned over the years, and especially now, with so many good new products that perform above their respective price points, it's that price does not necessarily define a product’s capability nor its quality. Companies like SVS, Emotiva and Buchardt are showing us that sound engineering coupled with innovative business models matter, and can yield great sounding value-priced gear. I own both boutique brands including Graham Audio, purchased on the secondary market, as well as some from those companies I just mentioned, purchased brand new, and in both cases they represent good value. Graham has to pay a hefty fee to the BBC for the models they are licensed to manufacture, which adds to the cost. I am sure there are other reasons as well, including economies of scale. No matter what you own or why, the goal is to get closer to and enjoy the music.

In a similar thread I mentioned that I feel Harbeths are overpriced (very overpriced) and overrated.

Alan Shaw clearly states that in the design of his speakers' crossovers:  'cost is no constraint'  and also that:  "we will add components and complexity to achieve, in combination with the shape of the cabinet and the characteristics of the drive units, the smoothest measurable frequency response"

A recent look at a Harbeth XO by GR Research found about 30 components in the XO!  Unfortunately, although this can produce a nice flat frequency response, which will satisfy potential buyers but more importantly be favourably mentioned by the reviewers, will reduce dynamics and micro-detail. Low level nuance also suffers. If cost is no constraint, then are those cheap white sand-cast resistors the best he can do? Really?

Even with the above points the Harbeths I've heard, and no I do not remember the models, sound pleasant and smooth. Too smooth. To me they sound dynamically constipated.

I usually try to listen to 10CC's ... I'm not in love. Great music but not that well recorded. On the Harbeths this was not enjoyable at all. They suit well girl and guitar music.

I have nothing against the brand. I design speakers as a hobby, do lots of XO mods or complete rebuilds and know what a simple but carefully designed XO can do.

My last design had a total of 6 components in a 2-way speaker. A coil, cap and resistor in each section. I looked long and hard for a tweeter that was 3dB less sensitive so that I could eliminate 1 more resistor but could not find one with an extended smooth roll off below the XO knee.

Guys and girls, please try listening to a good full-range speaker to get an idea of the damage excessively complex XOs do. Sure, you won't get full deep bass and treble extension and dispersion suffers, but a good full-ranger can boogie. I'm not saying that full-range designs are the answer. Only that bragging about the number of components used in an XO is misleading.

There is much more to designing an XO than 'flat response' The Cumulative Spectral Decay (or waterfall plot) will reveal things like stored excess energy and other nasties which will tell you a whole lot more than a flat frequency response will.

After that rant: best is to just listen 🙂

@bob540

They sound good

I auditioned vs two other similarly priced standmounts ($6 - $10), and Super HL5+ was easy choice for me. Same story as always - it’s a matter of personal taste & no intrinsic relationship between cost & enjoyment

(personal impressions at the time - other speakers mostly sounded like listening to a box, even if a very good box; H’s had beautiful detail - there is always “more” if you listen deeper; H’s felt equal to, or more alive, on very dynamic music; H’s beautiful on singer/songwriter & other smaller-scale acoustic music)

Ex: Beggars Banquet (mostly acoustic album) with all that beautiful slide guitar by Brian Jones, is just so, so good on the H’s - was different experience than the others I listened to. “Song Remains the Same” by Zep (the song) maybe has more “snap” on cabinet-sized Klipsch, or something. Btw, I like H’s bass very much - on SRtS, John Paul Jones bass is so there and musical and you understand how much it adds to the song. Same on Immigrant Song - H’s give up nothing vs others down low, unless one thinks toneless “thump” = bass. Superunknown is so, so crunchy and one can just crank it when in the mood

”Mining for Gold” by Cowboy Junkies one of my favorite audition songs, and for me is transporting on the H’s

If you listen to different genres than above, lmk and I will think about other comparisons

Good luck with the decision and let us know what you get!

Have a great day

@jjss49 +1 @deadhead1000 + 1

+ Nice thread; appreciate the thoughtful responses and comparisons 

The XD series has underdone certainly one round of price increases, perhaps two, and currently in the USA I just don’t think they’re price-competitive, whatever their many virtues.

I’m a huge fan of Harbeth as well, but I feel they are not very competitive at their current prices. I really like the P3esr, but something like a Fritz Carrera BE is much better for the same price.

I share the same sentiments. Folks in Britain also felt the same. At the current prices for the XD, the Harbeth are not considered to be good value anymore. Pick the predecessor(s) for best value or sound for your dollars. Avoid the older models and start from SHL5+ or SHL5+ 40th Anniversary, M30.2 Anniversary, 40.1 or 40.2 Anniversary etc.

The Harbeth may sound great but there are other options which sound great too, and some may offer a bit more.. There are many choices for you to pick from at the equivalent price range. It's good to have some variety in life.

They are very good for acoustic guitar and vocals and that is all they can provide.

jjss49

'you are mistaken, harbeths are made in britain still'

Yes, I already apologized.

It's difficult to describe in words, what we hear in audio. British speakers to my ears are more forward sounding than American speakers. My Quads sound balanced while being slightly forward at the same time. I happen to like that with the majority of the recordings that I own .If to you I am wrong, that's fine, to others I am right.

@goofyfoot

I might be mistaken but I thought Harbeth had moved its manufacturing to China, sharing the same manufacturing facility as Quad.

I do hear that British speakers, Sterling, Rogers, Quad, Harbeth, etc... all share a common characteristic in that they are forward sounding.

you are mistaken, harbeths are made in britain still

you should perhaps also define ’forward’ for us in your use of the word, but using the definition of ’forward’ commonly understood in these circles, you are mistaken again

there is a saying that is bandied about pretty often by well worn, long time music lovers and audiophiles - ’after you have tried em all, you come back and find a home with harbeths’... obviously no speaker appeals to all, even all well worn audiophiles, but there is some truth in that claim

harbeths are natural sounding, do voice and real (non electrified) instruments very well, do not overwhelm with a false sense of detail and ’hi-fi-ness’... as @arafiq  states, their appeal is in their ability to please and allow for lengthy listening sessions without fatigue, and allow much harshly, poorly recorded material to sound passable, if not downright good

@bob540 If you do go audition a Harbeth, please keep in mind that these speakers are very balanced, and can sound rather non-descript or bland during a short demo. But that is because nothing stands out and they don't call out for your attention. About 3 years ago, I went to audition Bowers and Wilkins speakers at a dealer who also happened to have Harbeth SHL5+ (I think a trade-in since he didn't carry the Harbeth line). I asked him to play the Harbeths, and after listening to them for a few minutes, I thought why would anyone pay so much to buy such a boring speaker. I bought the B&W but soon got tired of the sound signature (don't mean to offend any B&W owners but they're just not my cup of tea). A few years later I ended up buying SHL5+ and realized that what I initially thought was boring was actually an asset since it allows longer, fatigue-free sessions.

Harbeth speakers definitely have a slight emphasis on midrange but I don't think we can characterize them as forward sounding. Other than the midrange emphasis, I find them to be very balanced.

Also, as @jjss49 mentioned, there is a substantial difference between SHL5 (non-plus) and SHL5+. I often hear folks making comments on the basis of owning the non-plus model. There is no comparison. I heard the non-plus version and own the plus version. The super tweeter in SHL5+ makes a huge difference. You simply cannot extrapolate based on your impressions of the non-plus model alone.

@goofyfoot That is a good point — the cost of manufacture in England versus a low-wage country, and the impact that has on price.  

As for listening to Harbeth, the only local high-end audio retailer specializes in big projects, like wiring houses for complete audio-video systems, though they probably carry some individual speakers.  I feel a bit uncomfortable going there just to hear the equipment with no plans to purchase.  Might just bite my lip and go in. 

Yep, apologize. Harbeth is not an IAG China product. However, Mission, Audiolab, Wharfedale, Quad and some others are. So the fact that Harbeth is paying their workers a reasonable wage in the UK could explain the price point for their speakers. Anyway, again sorry, I should have looked it up first.

I do hear that British speakers, Sterling, Rogers, Quad, Harbeth, etc... all share  a common characteristic in that they are forward sounding. That itself could be a make or break attribute. 

I never thought they were anything special.

IPhones are built in China… it can be good or bad depending on what it is.

I might be mistaken but I thought Harbeth had moved its manufacturing to China, sharing the same manufacturing facility as Quad.

I don't think that is correct. But it would depend what you mean by "manufactured", as some individual parts may well be made in China. I believe that the speakers are "assembled" in the U.K.

I might be mistaken but I thought Harbeth had moved its manufacturing to China, sharing the same manufacturing facility as Quad. This would actually be a good thing if it were true. The current Quad ESL's are better built than any of there UK manufactured predecessors. Also in theory, the cost of Chinese labor should  lower the prices that get passed on to the consumer (in theory).

Nice midrange, vintage looks, and not a tower. 

I was just wondering what all the fuss is about — won’t know until I listen!

a universal truth for any high well-reputed end loudspeaker... and even some not so well reputed ones  😂

Thank you all for your responses and suggestions.  I don’t think I will be purchasing any Harbeth until after I have had a chance to hear them.  I was just wondering what all the fuss is about — won’t know until I listen!

@chorus I thought TMR was selling B-stock that's why the prices were lower. I'm a huge fan of Harbeth as well, but I feel they are not very competitive at their current prices. I really like the P3esr, but something like a Fritz Carrera BE is much better for the same price.

BBC must be part of the image, and the rainy UK weather, when engineers just tweak it until their ears fall off

Every loudspeaker, no matter the price, is voiced by the builder to best accomplish their design goals.  That's why there's no unanimity of opinion of the best speaker at any given price range, including unlimited.  Harbeth, like many brands, has been around for a long time.  You can trust them to build a quality product at a just price.

That doesn't mean they're for you.  Every buyer is seeking the speaker in their price range that best meets their own personal "voicing" standards.

Don't look at this as being something special that Agon is offering you.  It's just a sales ad.  If Harbeth wasn't on your radar before, you don't need to add them now.

The XD series has underdone certainly one round of price increases, perhaps two, and currently in the USA I just don't think they're price-competitive, whatever their many virtues.

The upside here is that the sweet spot in the Harbeth range was represented by the previous two generations/iterations: the Anniversary series and the non-anniversary series before that (e.g. 40.2 Anniversary, 40.2).  Pick up a gently used pair of these in whatever model you're interested in, and you get all the Harbeth magic at a much more reasonable price.  That's exactly what I did.

xd versions are very very incrementally altered over just prior gen harbeths

That’s useful. From my observation, the popular XD models that get the most attention are the C7ES3 and M30. The other models don’t get much interest, and the P3ESR XD is a mixed bag. It appears that several P3ESR owners who switched to the P3ESR XD are having difficulty adapting to the bright treble in the new model.

xd versions are very very incrementally altered over just prior gen harbeths

bigger change can be heard in 40.2 or shl+ or 7es3 versions from those prior... 40.1, shl non/plus, c7es2 - as others have said, mid-bass/bass was tightened up and transparency increased a noticeable notch

I don’t know about the XD versions. If going with the older SHL5, pick the SHL5 Plus instead of the older SHL5. The Plus is an overall better sounding speaker - cleaner, more precise and better clarity in the bass and midrange. The SHL5 non-Plus sounds smeared and has a bloated uneven bass.

Interesting question.  I am admittedly a Harbeth fan, although right now I am listening to the Chartwell LS6s.  Harbeth certainly has a big fan base and I agree with those above that say they are best suited for acoustic music and vocals, although I have listened to a much wider range of music on them. Yes, the prices are high.  When I bought my HL5s, they were 4k and now they're 8k.  Things made in England are more expensive than many other places due to labor costs. Should you buy them?  Sometimes you need to get something out of your system.  Years ago, I bought a Linn turntable just to see what it was about.  I wanted the baseline of listening to a Linn as a yardstick with which to measure other turntables.  So my opinion is this - if you can afford it, buy a pair of Harbeths and see what they're about.  Then you'll know.  BTW, I think the ones on sale have slight finish imperfections, not that it matters - unless it matters to you.  

Harbeth to me Are in the same category like Teckton they look plain ugly I will never own them sorry 

I think both speakers sounds amazing 🤩 but I’m not big fan of the looks 

"What is it about the construction or technology that makes these speakers a deal at $2700 on sale versus the $800, 900 or $1,000 that others normally cost?"

What others are you talkin’ about? Name a few!