Bob540 - I suggest you check out their website for alot of information about their speakers' design aspects. Also there are plenty of reviews on the web, done over many years which provide comprehensive insights into their sound and what reviewers have liked and not liked about them. I did all of the above before I bought my 30.2 XD speakers. That was a year ago and I've been very happy with them.
What Is So Special About Harbeth?
SLike probably all of you, I just received notice from Audiogon of a 20% discount on Harbeth XD. I clicked on the tab and found that the sale price is about $2700. I have read so many glowing comments here about Harbeth — as if just saying the name is the password for entering aural nirvana. I admit, I haven’t listened to Harbeth speakers. But looking at these, they just look like smallish bookshelf speakers. I’m not questioning how good others say these speakers are, but HOW do they do it out of an ordinary-looking box?
Is it the wood? Is it the bracing? Is it the crossover components? Is it the cone material? What is the reason why these Harbeth’s are such gems compared to other bookshelf speakers? What is it about the construction or technology that makes these speakers a deal at $2700 on sale versus the $800, 900 or $1,000 that others normally cost? What is the secret that makes audiophiles thrill to get such a costly bargain?
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very much agree w comments by @bassdude @prof @bassdude great call on hegel h590 - the 590 in particular has a little extra sparkle over the warmer voiced 390... and it is not an accident that alan shaw uses hegels in development and at audio shows, he ain’t no foo’... 😁 not to say there aren't other amps that make these harbeths sing beautifully |
jjss49"according to harbeth/alan shaw, the xd models are supposed to give a very slight treble lift and midbass lean-out compared to each respective models' prior versions (mon 30, 40, super 5 and compact 7)"
That is why I got the Hegel H590 to drive my 30.1's and 40.2's - because I wanted more of a treble balance and leaner mid-bass sound, as the new models seem to have. The H590 cleared them right up, as does the 16ohm taps on my AR tube amps seem to. |
Something I've noticed today as I've tried my AR 5SE preamp and AR 150SE amp class A tube amps with my Harbeth 30.1's is that they seem to drive the 30.1's better on the 16 ohm speaker taps, than on the 8ohm speaker taps. They seem to have a bit faster sound with greater clarity on the 16ohm taps, and a bit slower, thicker, muddy sound on the 8ohm taps. Don't know why that would be? That was the primary reason I got the Hegel H590 to drive the Harbeths - because it had so much greater clarity with them, than with the AR tube amps, when I first tried them. But, using the 16ohm taps seems to clear them up - more like the H590, but with a bit of tube air. That was my one issue with the Harbeth 30.1's and 40.2's I have - until I got the H590... and... now having discovered their sound using the 16ohm taps of the AR tubes amps. |
As I've mentioned, Harbeth are one of my favorite speaker brands. I've heard the whole line up a few times and owned the SuperHL5plus. I could certainly live with Harbeths as my speakers. If I could fault them on anything, the Harbeths do lack some of the punch and solidity I find in some speakers (especially my Thiel 2.7s). The Harbeths do have a clear, open sound. And one of the attributes I love is the density - voices etc have a corporeal, filled out sound with body. So they are rich and have a sense of density in that sense. But the overall sound, compared to my Thiels for instance, is a little bit "puffy," sort of like I can sense the box a bit, and drums, bass guitars etc don't have quite the "right there" solid slam and presence. The Thiels (and some other speakers) also sound a bit more tidy and clean, more precise. I still think Harbeth have a particularly great sense of balance to the sound, and I enjoy all genres on the Harbeths. But if I had to pick nits, those would be mine.
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I bought p3esr xds and based on what I’ve read was prepared to be wowed but ended up selling them after a few weeks. I thought they sounded like a good small speaker, for a narrow range of simple acoustic or vocal music. I thought rock sounded flat, compressed, and a bit muddled. I also felt there was a bit of a treble edge which was unexpected. Maybe what bothered me the most is that the box vibrates like a cello and bass sounds like the product of a vibrating box rather than the driver. At first i tried them on some hollow stands and the stands literally rang like a bell. I gave them a go replacing genelecs in my desktop setup and the sound was noticeably stuck in the boxes in comparison, and they vibrated the desk. I might have kept them at maybe half price. |
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Recently acquired a used set of mint SHL5 Plus 40th Anniversary with TonTrager stands at a decent price which I consider a much better value compared to buying both speakers and stands brand new. Purchased the set without ever auditioning any Harbeth speakers prior. I based my decision primarily on the collective experiences of everyone online and understood the strengths and weakness of the brand. Most importantly, one needs to know their priorities and preferences for sound. My music preferences mirrors the OPs and listening habits not needing SPLs beyond 85dB, Even when demoing to F&F, there's no need to crank it up to show how great a system sounds unless you and your friends are into same loud concert SPLs. Harbeth brand is not for everyone. Luckily, it is for me. No regrets here. I can see myself enjoying this kit for years to come.
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I had the opportunity to buy the SHL5+ or the XD and chose the +. The XD model was too smooth and laid back to my ears, more like the 40.2. It did have excellent bass. The 5+ is clearer and more detailed yet still a smooth, warm speaker overall. The tweeter is very well integrated with the woofer and never bright or harsh. I love the sound of the 5+ . |
@acdvd, the big improvement for the shl5 was going from the non-plus to plus model. The subsequent models (40th Anniversary and XD) only had small incremental updates. If you have a good deal on the plus, I would go for it. |
Well... If I were going to spend as much as some of you have suggested for the 40.3's... I probably would go for the ATC-100's... because they are so transparent, and the clarity is superb. I'm uncertain, if they have as much "magic" (rich, weighty sound) as the 40.2's / 40.3's... Although, as I sit here and listen to the 40.3's just now... they do have a very real tone, timbre and texture with strings, and horns - it is difficult to imagine much better. |
I have the 30.1’s and the 40.2’s driven by the Hegel H590 integrated DAC/Preamp/Amp... and... they are superb for classical, jazz, country... all things acoustic. You will find very few speakers that can match them when driven by matching electronics - which means Hegel, or McIntosh MA252 or MA352, or similar high current SS amps with high damping factors. Their bass and lower mids need the control provided by a high current SS amp. They sound very similar to the Quad ESL57’s - the best speaker there is for that type of music. When I first got them, I was not impressed and would not have kept them had I not purchased the Hegel integrated - which is the amplification Harbeth demos them with at shows. It makes a noticeable difference - in their resolution, clarity, dynamics and detail. I also supplement them with the Townshend Super Tweeters, which I think helps them a bit with detail resolution, clarity and air. They’re mids and lower mids / upper bass are superb - very rich with wonderful presence. Some call it "warm." They will not give you the ear piercing highs of a BE or Diamond tweeter - they have more natural highs. And... though they do sound fine at low volumes, they really need to be driven to produce their best clarity, dynamics and detail. Unless you really are a basshead... you will find their bass very good - so long as driven with a high current SS amp. They’re best with other components that are not voiced with a "warm" sound. Though - if you are a "rocker" you will want JBL or Klipsch - which will provide you greater impact and a bit faster, cooler bass and mids, while still sounding great with the types of music noted here. While the SHL5+ will have greater treble emphasis and maybe a bit faster bass, the 30.1’s, 40.2’s and P3ESR all have a very simiar sound, with the P3ESR being superb for nearfield listening in small rooms. The others have a bit too much bass for smaller rooms. If you are wanting to try them... you might start with the P3ESR’s in a smaller room (e.g. say 10x12, or so), though they will sound great in a bit larger rooms. The key is the matching electronics. This will give you a great idea of the sound that we’re describing - mine sound very much like these:
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I think they sound awfully good, but, as has been mentioned, are rather overpriced for what they are. They do that magical midrange thing so many BBC monitors are known to do. If that meets your needs, and you don't mind the relatively narrow restrictions they put on your choice of amplifier, and you have the cash, they'll be hard to beat. That's not meant to sound smarmy. As far as I can tell, getting one thing extremely right is basically what Harbeth set out to do, and I'd say they did it. That's worthy of respect. It just isn't worth what they're charging for it, to me. |
The SHL5+ sounds more open / less polite than M30 versions with electronic and rock or dynamic music. |
I have auditioned a few iterations of the 30 series and most of the 40s and can second the points made by @orfeo_monteverdi above (and many others). Harbeths are polite and, when you adjust to their presentation, you get musical cohesiveness -- as many have said: it sounds natural, real. The frequency extension is not gut-wrenching on either end, but the critical mid-range is well done on both the 30 & 40 series. Not surprisingly, the 40s offer more weight / volume and amplitude than the 30s and can fill a medium-sized room quite well. I too found that electronic music came out too polite, probably because I expect harsh / dirty sounds with this music -- that you don't get with the big Harbeths... (that said, Tupak's voice was very clear!) |
op quested’s are second gen brit studio monitors, very very limited distribution - basically a pro line product, not really for home hifi - like atc, they are true modern studio monitors, which may or may not please the home listening audiophile, a very very different sound than harbeths harbeth monitor 40’s in 40.2 form run about 10-13 grand a pair in the usa, depending on finish and condition... it is the latest versions 40.3 xd or anniversary, that generally trade at 16-19k a pair used (but still approximate new given their very recent release), then you add stands...
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Sweet, Slow, Polite, Boring at time. Accurate on voicing, Can sound very musical with the right gear. Not suitable for all music Type. I would not say these are dynamic speakers so really fast classical music or likewise anything that requires speed its gona sound too soft.
Perfect speakers for the bedroom, when your making love and listening to soft music :-) |
weakest things of harbeths are these.Far away from natural
I respectfully disagree. Just got done listening to Zuill Bailey's most recent attempt at the Bach cello suites (Octave Records OCT-0008), and while not a bowed bass, the sounds I heard expressed the humanity of both the performer and the composer with spine-tingling authenticity. Earlier today I had on Basie "Live at the Sands" (their performance in 1966 before Sinatra took the stage – MFSL 2-401). When Sonny Payne cracked his drums I just about leapt out of my seat. I had to play it again to believe it. I was there (who needs Frank anyway when the Count's in town)! That on a humble set of PSesr speakers (with a little help from an REL T/5). |
All good observations made by existing Harbeth owners and ex-owners. I agree that the Harbeth are very good in reproducing tone and timbre of instruments and human voice. In my limited experience, not many speakers do well in this area. I find voices on Harbeth to be one of the best if not the best. Some (or many) costlier high end speakers fail to match the Harbeth in reproducing voices to sound close to the real thing. I somewhat agree with this remark made by Extravaganza, only if it’s relating to the intensity or power of the striking of drums, the dynamics of the bass or shimmer and decay or cymbals. The dynamics are slightly lacking but if we are talking about the tone and timbre of instruments such as piano, acoustic guitars, violin, trumpet etc. it’s as close to the real thing as you can get. Human voice, it’s very very good, perhaps not the best but based on my limited experience I haven’t found one that reproduces voice to sound better and more believable than the Harbeth. The M30.2 does voices the best in the Harbeth line but I was made to understand that the new C7ES3 XD now gives the 30.2 XD some competition. |
I remeber a few years back I visited an old friend of mine in Philadephia and he had a set of the largest Harbeths, a Linn Sondek deck with Vandehul cartridge and Ayre electronics from phono to preamp to power amp. It was one of the nicest systems I have heard. The evening after dinner he played everything from classical symphonies to Daft Punk to Steely Dan to Nora Jones and it was very realistic powerful and also not too sharp or edgy like many big deal hifis are. I just remember being very impressed. |
to me, the stark reality of the matter is that all speakers have a sound, and of course, any speaker in a room then has even more of a sound -- this truism is absolute and unavoidable people like to say xyz is ’accurate’ - but no one really knows what 'accurate' it is... it is subjective, not objective... it is what we hear, as what we can measure to be ’accurate’ is woefully incomplete in explaining what we hear, how we feel a sounds different than b that said, all experienced folks in this pursuit understand that speakers by far, by far, produce the greatest distortion (i.e. variation) from input to output, than any other part of the signal chain -- even based on rudimentary measurements of frequency and phase response -- so speaker choice is naturally the most intensely personal what we can do (and should do), though, is hear real things (human voice, piano, acoustic guitar, drum set, cymbal shimmer, bowed bass, cello) and ideally hear them in the same or a similar room, then try to remember that sound, and compare to what similar reproduced sound/music of the same sounds like, and judge how close, how truthful it is to the real thing when done in this way, many who judge harbeths feel they do quite well, and better than most |
My C7ES3’s are a very nice second system speaker option to my Shindo/Altec’s. They get the all important (to me) tone correct, and are engaging at low/moderate listening levels. When fed properly, they do not get lost in my med/large listening area. That is a 23 X 12 ft room with 8 ft ceilings, with a large opening to the dining room. If I do part with my C7’s, the low-ish efficiency/impedance will be the main reason. I am planning on a return to tubes after a short run with the Luxman 550, and prior to that, a Croft phono int amp. The latter was actually quite good, but lacked the depth of tubes. |
Are you looking for a certain sound, or an accurate representation of the music as recorded? How many professional live performances have you attended in a proper acoustically balanced environment have you attended? i own a pair of 30.2 XDs connected to a Belles Virtuoso power amp and have can tell you that what is so special about them is that they present the music, not a brand’s house sound. If you like a brand’s house sound you should buy that speaker, because our hearing can be subjective if we don’t know what we really are supposed to be hearing, not what you like hearing. My 30.2XDs are accurate, and never tiring to listen too. I used to enjoy a pair of top-tier B&Ws and thought they sounded great, until I retired and had the time to sit and actually listen to them for long periods of time- they turned out to be bright and fatiguing. I found similar fatigue when auditioning many other speakers. Love my Harbeths.
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The sound of my SHL5+ goes across musical genres with ease. Rock guitar and vocals have presence and clarity that sounds real. Drum skins have pop and snap. When I listen to Klipsch for example the sound is fun and dynamic but overly colored and vocals are nasal. This is kind of distracting to me. Sounds like listening to a band on a bad PA system. |
@prof Thank you for the wonderful, thoughtful post above. Your views on audio are as balanced (but equally nuanced) as Harbeths :) |
Whether a speaker is "good" for X, Y or Z genre is always going to be a subjective call. It’s "good for X music" insofar as you enjoy that music on the speaker. For my kids, apple earbuds are "good" for everything they listen to. There are people who love classical music, but who listen through small speakers utterly incapable of anything like orchestral dynamics...but the musical message is coming through loud and clear for them. So you always have to take someone’s assessment "X speakers are good for X but not for Y" with a grain of salt, since that only means "I enjoyed X music but not Y music" on the speakers. This subjectivity plays out with Harbeth speakers like any others. There are those who will say "Harbeth speakers are only good if you like THESE genres of music" while plenty of other Harbeth fans will say they like Harbeths BECAUSE they seem so well balanced they seem to play all genres pleasingly. I’m in the latter camp. I found Harbeth speakers, e.g. the SuperHL5plus (and even the smaller 30s) to be beautifully balanced, in that all the elements in a mix seemed to come through sounding "right" - nothing shortchanged, nothing over emphasized. That went for all the funk, rock, prog rock etc that I loved, as well as acoustic material. It was all very satisfying. Now that doesn’t mean I can’t get as much or more pleasure through certain other speakers I like or own. For instance I’m currently using my Thiel 2.7s, and I love the depth of bass, impact and sheer scale they provide. So I do like certain aspects of the Thiel sound over the Harbeth (and visa versa). But that’s not to say I found myself thinking the Harbeths were a failure in any particular genre of music. No more than the fact there are plenty of more powerful speakers than the Thiels means I'm feeling the Thiels are substandard with some genres. The Thiels rock my world with some Rush I was playing yesterday, with tons of punch and dynamics for my taste. But I’m sure to a horn fanatic they "just don’t do dynamics" as they want, and they’d find some genres unsatisfying on the Thiels, where I enjoy everything. And so it goes...
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