My friend is just getting into audio for a music system. In his price rang I thought the Rogue Sphinx V3 would be a nice choice. He could also look at the Revel Concerta 2 line of speakers. Well he decided to stop by Magnolia at Best Buy. Not a bad setup he got a Denon 3700 AVR and a pair of B&W 603's. He said the salesman told him to stay away from integrated amps as they are not anything but stripped down AVR's without the features. So I guess all us owners of 2 channel preamps and integrated have been duped. Who knew??
From the perspective of an audiophile, your friend was certainly given misinformation. However, it doesn't necessarily mean that the salesman wasn't giving the best advice based on his experience as a salesman. It all depends on what your friend is looking for in an audio system. I would anticipate that the majority of customers are looking for features and are not discerning enough to appreciate the difference in sound quality between a good integrated and a receiver.
It's been more than a decade, but when I purchased my Focal 836v speakers I quickly discovered that my Onkyo receiver wasn't up to the challenge. I ended up purchasing an Integra 50.1 receiver and actually still use it in my home theater setup. It's really not a bad place to start. The Denon AVR-X3700 is 4 ohm stable, has plenty of power, and has preouts so your friend has options and will likely keep this unit for a long time even if he gets itchy to move up.
As audiophiles we have to be careful to give advice that is in alignment with what are friends are wanting. It's easy to get carried away and recommend things that we appreciate but are way beyond what they really want or need. I'm not saying that you did this, it's just something that we all have to be aware of.
The real test will be to see if your friend is happy with his gear or wishes that he's gotten something different/better. I'd suspect that he will be very happy and even though he may not have gotten the best deal, he may be happy for a long time to come.
He will most likely be very happy and ,With that Denon,he can add some External Amps down the road to add some more wattage if he thinks he needs it.Maybe a couple of Subwoofers.too?As mentioned above"it was in stock!"
Who among us started out with the system we have now?
Give the guy a break and let him learn the way every one of us did: trial and error and triumph! That Denon/B&W system will sound way better than whatever he’s used to and will be an excellent introduction to all the features and switches.
I say it’s impossible to buy any system at any price and thereby assume the identity "audiophile." Doesn’t audiophilia require experience? Can you "buy-in" to the hobby?
Stuck in the back of a big box like Best Buy, Magnolia is definitely NOT the place to audition a competitive 2 channel system. If I were working there, I would have sold the guy pretty much the same stuff. I guarantee that system was good for everyone involved: good sound, good reliability, probable WAF, profitable, in-stock, solid stuff that can be enjoyed for years and then be a good value on the used market.
@luxmancl38maybe you'll get lucky and the manual is in 5 languages and you will only need to power trough 50-60 pages
Setup and tweaking on some AVRs can be a chore with room analysis microphones for optimized speaker placement, carving up the power for different speaker channel configurations, etc
An update. He seems pretty happy w/the purchase. However he's a bit overwhelmed buy the manual, 312 pages. I'm going over to help him navigate the instructions. A big difference from my Lo-Tech Luxman Tube Preamp Instruction Manual which is only 20 pages long. KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid)😎
I feel a bit inclined to defend BB / Magnolia. In general, they have employees that know more than nothing. They are salesman… but people as well… so some are great some good and some not good. They sell low end and mid-fi to mostly people that know little to nothing. It is there job, and not one that pays six digits. So, within that context, they usually do pretty good. I have met some really enthusiastic pretty well informed folks there… although not the most common. I haven’t met too many sales people that were just pushing stuff. If they sell something inappropriate it is more from lack of knowledge.
As most integrated are 2 channel I would say they are more like a 2 channel receiver without the tuner. Either way the point is your cramming more into the same size box so sacrifices have to be made..
@luxmancl38 in my experience learned over time, home theater and 2 channel stereo is almost apples and oranges
Feature rich multifunction devices that do everything pretty good Vs stand alone specialty devices that do fewer things extremely well
Great guidance on the Revel line, outstanding price performers IMO
I've owned the F36s for approx 5 years and they've trickled down to my TV audio system, which is also only 2 channel. Won't shake the room while watching the opening scenes of Saving Private Ryan or the Matrix but more than covers my selfish interest for TV viewing pleasure
He still did OK, if he's happy and while he probably wasn't gouged and got to take a product home that day, he did leave a little fun on the table and may find himself correcting course down the road
My guess is the weak link in the chain was the limited knowledge of the BestBuy salesman, who may whole heartedly, based on his experience, feel like he's short changing a customer if he doesn't equip them when going out the door, with a direct path to the latest atmos nirvana
One of the really hard parts of this hobby, we all just don't know what we don't know and where does our respective points of reference start when evaluating the same products
Example, when evaluating a new speakers, my personal point of reference would be the midlevel Revels, but someone else's point of reference could be coming from some upper end Magico, Rockport, Wilson, etc
If we both listen to something higher up the food chain than the Revels but lower in the food chain than the Magico, I'm apt to speak of them very favorably while the other person may review them as under performers
Both personal opinions would be correct and honest from the different points of reference that we started from
Then we'll all gravitate to the measurements for the tie breaking facts to settle the matter of different opinions derived from different starting points of reference
My apologies for running down a rabbit hole of mental gymnastics and the diversion to what's most important on this forum - happy listening and enjoying the journey
Years ago I went to BB/Magnolia to hear a pair of Def Techs that I was curious about. When I FINALLY found someone help me (He really wasn't working in that department), they could not possibly have been set up to sound worse. Subs were all the way up. Just awful, distorted hideous noise.
I don't think I'd even buy an appliance from them.
As someone who works at best buy, I can agree that most of the employees know f all. We don't sell a lot of hifi products, mainly receivers and some decent speakers. Lots of brands we don't carry, and if we do, they make it hard to get them which makes no sense to me when I can go to another retailer and order it online. Mag employees get comission to my knowledge as well, which is why he's spouting pure drivel
well at least he has an AVR if we wants to add to build a surround sound system. I am sure the salesperson qualified him 🤣🤣🤣. Did he go in saying I am looking for a 2 channel system for audio? AVR , Audio, Video , Receiver. If he told the guy/gal I am not playing video and have no need for all of those Video features he should have walked out with a 2 channel integrated . Maybe the guy said he also wants to watch movies etc... B&W 603s will be fine
Some friends will take advice, and some won't. That's just the way it is. In defense of Magnolia, I went to the one near me and bought my Oppo there. The Magnolia section was separate from the rest of the store, and the guys there did know what they were selling. However, they only sell a few brands. They carried McIntosh and Martin Logan to name a couple. Not bad, but limited.
An AVR will convert all of the analog inputs to digital, then use a digital volume control, digital signal processing, etc., then go back to analog for amplification. The AVR will have lots of extra output channels and you'll end up paying for that.
A proper integrated amp should be analog from the input to the output. One easy thing to look for is the presence of a motorized potentiometer for volume control rather than a rotary encoder, though the presence of a rotary encoder doesn't always mean a digital volume control. If an integrated amp without a DAC is chosen, said piece will not age out as DAC technology progresses.
Let it Ride is maybe the worst movie I have ever watched (in its entirety). Thought it would get better. I can't believe Richard Dreyfus did it. Must have needed the cash.
The OP didn't mention whether his friend also was going to put it in a room with a TV and if he wanted surround sound (or whatever format they're pushing these days). If he is just getting into music and still will be needing a movie experience, it probably was an OK decision.
I'm happy with a 2 channel with an excellent integrated amp (Plinius) and don't care about the sound coming out of a Sony TV. My cable box used to have an audio output that I plugged into the integrated so I at least got 2 channel sound out of my stereo, but the new one with 4K doesn't have it, so for video, I live with the crap sound. I'm not outputting my TV audio into my amp (if it even does that).
Some of the Magnolia guys do know a lot. They're not supposed to let the regular best buy guys who focus on computers and phones into that department, and in my experience, they will tell you they are just covering for somebody. As a matter of fact, when I was looking at TVs a while back, I started talking about stereos and the guy introduced me to power conditioners and how it could help the SQ. This was before my Audiogon days. I ended up buying a used PC from a stereo dealer I knew (retired), but probably wouldn't have gotten one for a decade (or so) later.
Plenty of stereo store guys don't know their ass from a hole in the ground (or are so biased it is ridiculous). Especially regarding turntables (if they carry them at all).
Sometime around 2009 I went into Circuit City to buy a new U2 DVD that came out that day. When I couldn't find it on the shelf (why would it be on the shelf when it's brand new?...) I asked the sales person if they had it. His response was: "YouTube? On DVD?"
So to the OP's question, there is likely a kernel of truth in the statement. In the mass market that he serves, that is liekly the case. I would guess that every major manufacturer has a basic line circuit, power supply design, volume/remote ciruit etc. A simple integrated amp is those sans the additional doo-dads like dolby surround etc.
But what's an integrated amp at its core? Answer: a preamp and a power amp in once chassis, with significant savings, and no wires. After decades of contract design and input in high end I'm back to designing my own stuff (maybe for market if the supply chain ever un-knots) and guess what I'm starting with? Yup, and integrated. It just makes sense if convenience and cost are a factor at all. So in theory, IMO, its the perfect package. Further integration (e.g.: on board DAC) comes with tome packaging and power trade offs that i dont wish to make, but combining the power and pre sections is quite manageable (biggest issue: controlling power supply noise from the big honking power output stage - and i figured out how to do that).
Remember also that at best buy the models are typically made specifically for big box sale and are not the "reference" series others carry.
A salesman's job is to get you to not walk out of the store without buying something. What they have, right there and then, is what you need. I'd be curious if that Denon AVR was a model that was made for Best Buy retailers only. That does happen all too often. I have no way of knowing if that was the case here, but it would not surprise me.
A few year back, I was in the market for a new TV. During my research I found that certain Vizio model numbers were only made for Best Buy retailers, and to avoid those models if you were looking at used Vizio TVs.
I'm an audiophile as I'm sure most of you here are and have some really nice two channel systems but when I first started out and not knowing anything I bought a Denon AVR and B&W speakers. The point is that I watched "you've go mail" with this set up and some of the songs played on the DVD made my hair stand up on the back of my neck. They sounded really great. I no longer would consider an AVR of any kind but your friend could have stumbled into a little luck by accident that definitely wasn't the salesman's fault. We should also consider that he might have auditioned them first (not in Walmart I'm sure but I'm not familiar with Magnolia)
The Denon/B&W mix might be one of the better combos available at Best Buy. If he gets enough taste of what hi-fi can do, he might be back to ask some questions or maybe like my friend that has had the same stuff for 40 years? Hard to tell.
The OP said his friend was getting into music. The BB salesperson did him a solid. He will be able to appreciate swapping out the Denon for a used Adcom or NAD something with guts and current to drive the speakers.
it seems to me that your friend is trying to build a Home Theater system. there are 2 positive things , speakers can be bi-amped and Denon Audyssey MultEQ XT32(room correction soft with microphone ) adjusts the speakers to the best sound . I suggest you to go and listen . and maybe help to set it up correctly. you might be in for a surprise . and please let us know
Way to tell it like it is! It’s post like some of those above that make see what others think about Audiophiles and count myself as one of them. Having just recently fully separating my 2/ch from my HT setup with a dedicated 2/ch preamp, the Marantz 8805 I used for my 2/ch gave me nothing but what I wanted from my setup and that was great musical playback and could have easily kept using it as such. Here’s what many miss about an avr , it can literally do it all and that onboard room correction suit on the 3700 brings in an entirely different means for good playback and that’s just the tip of the iceberg. I spoken to a few salesmen at my local Magnolia and yes there are guys just like us who love music and know there stuff. Even when I had plentiful boutique shops to frequent there always those who knew there stuff and those there for a paycheck.
I’m still shaking my head at this but would really love to hear what the guy who laid down his cash thinks of his new gear.
Best Buy and Magnolia. Not the same and not all stores have a Magnolia. Magnolia vs Magnolia. Some are worse than others. I have a very good friend that works for Magnolia in the Bay Area. He knows his shit. So let’s not slump it all into one bucket. The Best Buy jokes like how Bose used to be.
And if the friend of the original poster wanted stereo only, I don’t recall seeing that mentioned, then yes there is no need for an AVR. If I were shopping I would understand the difference between both and the friend knew enough to say integrated so he can’t be as green a grape. I would have said scram is there someone else who could help me?
And I use a pre/pro to get a combined HT/stereo set-up but I also totally understand that I MAY get much better results not using a HT piece of gear at all or using a pre/amp with home theater bypass.
There is nothing wrong with using an AVR for stereo. Hell many/most do but don’t underestimate with moving away from that path can provide a much greater experience. Depends on what you are after. Some folks very sensitive like you are cutting down their set-up but it's really a case of understanding what the two different scenarios provide.
But again, my real point is standing up for the Magnolia guys. They can only sell what they have. Many but maybe not all very Intune with the landscape. And they discount. Be firm.
The way to go about it next time around is to do what Richard Dreyfuss did in the movie, Let It Ride. He plays this down on his luck gambler who loves the horses and on one lucky day, he simply can't go wrong.
On one race, he asks dozens of people who their pick is, marking it off on his program over and over and when he's done, he sees that one horse was never picked, so he picks that one, and it wins.
If he hasn't heard your system & you're willing to invite him into your house, you could invite him over for a listen. Otherwise, he's made his choice. I wouldn't hassle him about what he bought (or seek his advice on audio gear).
Who would ever listen to a salesperson at Best Buy. in the first place?
Integrated amps have come a long way. I dream of owning a Luxman 509. Integrated amps help clear the clutter and they help to make room inside an entertainment center. All I care about is knowing what's inside the cabinet. If I had an expensive turn table, I would switch gears and go with a rack and use a small LED light on an arm to spotlight to show it off. If I had a $100,00 sound system, I might look at things differently. I wonder at times how many of our members have systems costing more than that.
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