Upscale Audio and Primaluna

I’m Very happy with my Primaluna preamps. EVO 300 and Dialogue Premium, One with a tube amp and one with a cheap SS amp respectively and they both sound wonderful! Upscale has been good the best packaging ever and never tried to upsell

I remember a buddy of mine was interested in a new pre-amp upgrading from his existing Mark Levinson unit (forgot which one).  He went to Upscale and they seriously pushed the Prima Luna top pre-amp. I told him to look at the Audio Research REF 6 pre-amp.  

The salesperson at Upscale told him with a straight face that the Prima Luna unit was way better than the Audio Research unit.

I told my friend that although the Prima Luna unit was nice, no way on this planet was it even close to the Audio Research unit..

So, while they were pressing him. I told him to Contact Randy at Optimal Enchantment.  Randy let him "borrow" the Audio Research REF 6.  He purchased the Prima Luna unit with the understanding that he could return it for a full refund.

He compared both units in his system in an A/B comparison.  It wasn't even close.   I rarely say one unit will blow another away, but the REF6 just was heads better than the Prima Luna unit.  Which already knew because I heard both before.

Upscale owns a part of Prima Luna and pushes it hard. Again, don't get me wrong.  They are nice units.  But to lie and say it was better than the REF6, hell, it wasn't better than a REF 3. 

Tell the truth.  if a unit is better then say so.  if the customer wants to pay the costs difference, that should be their choice.


Hearing the units in the same system (taking into account cost differences) is important. A re-tubed REF 3 is better.  That automatically means that a REF 5, 5SE are also better.

But, for the money, it is a nice unit.

 I thought to save money and purchase replacement tubes for my REF250 amps from Upscale.  Never again!!! They were supposed to be matched and within Audio Research specs.  They weren't close. 

Shortly after replacing all the tubes and biasing the amps (yes, I know how to correctly bias amps, one of my amps blew.  The tube went and took out several other components including integrated circuits.  My DAC also blew at the same time as a result.  To this day the technicians and  I can't explain that one.
But,George Meyer AV techs tested each and every tube in both amps and found them well outside Audio Research specs.  it cost me well over $3,000 usd to repair that amp, and I purchased Audio Research supplied tubes.

I'll spend the extra money on Audio Research supplied tubes for my amps from now one because 1) they will be matched and within Audio Research specs and 2) if they fail and damage the amp, Audio Research will cover the repair.

Expensive lesson learned. 

anyway, Prima Luna is good, but come on, be truthful.

enjoy

ebm7: Over the years, many people have made negative remarks about Kevin. Maybe he's a bit of a prima donna? But you're wrong about Tannoy speakers being passé. IMHO designs other than those with concentric drivers are hopelessly compromised. However, only Tannoy Prestige speakers are worth having.    

I'm not an Upscale fan. Apart from the dubious provenance of the rectifier I mentioned earlier (and the even more dubious explanation offered by Kevin), I don't like their Prima Luna hustle. I called recently to ask about some speakers and was pitched Prima Luna. This was before the hustler found out anything about me or my systems, or even asked about my current amps. Amazing.

The first thing I would say is the Humperdinck is definitely a wonderful integrated! However,have you ever listened to the Spitsalottasmoke??  I get your point. There is always a diplomatic way of being honest without turning a potential sale into an audio forum rant.  Let’s put it this way,right ,wrong or indifferent, I wouldn’t spend my cash with someone abrasive. 

@rocray You are indeed correct, that is the right way to be a successful sales person. BUT, for the sake of the discussion, what if someone called their audio dealer and said "I have a Humperdink Integrated" and I am interested in a pair of the "XYZ Amazing speakers". What if the Humperdink is a marginal amp? Sure there are ways to say it better or more elegantly but the last thing we would want a reputable dealer to do is sell the speakers to the customer when there is no hope of driving them appropriately with the amp.


Maybe some of the problem is the person who takes it personally that they are trying to match something to an ill advised previous purchase. Talk to enough audio dealers and they would likely admit that is the call the hate the most. "Make this work for me but I'm tying your hands behind your back because you must work with the weaknesses of the system the customer is inflexible with".


I've seen some of the dealers I do business with extend such a gracious amount of time to people they know will never purchase, listening to the stories of how perfectly they have put together their system. One dealer friend shared with me that the problem with hobbyists is that they think its a hobby for everyone involved...like the purpose of an audio shop is to be the local clubhouse for the hobbyist community. Sometimes they are and sometimes they are not.

Whether it be audiophile gear, cars, real estate, religion or politics... Life's too short to endure pushy sales people.

Anytime I hear a salesperson bad mouth another product,the red flag goes up,and I head out.  Years ago I worked retail sales,and whenever a customer came in looking for a product I didn’t carry,the FIRST thing I would say was”GREAT product”! Why on earth would any salesperson start off with a potential customer by insulting them??  Once you compliment someone on the product they are looking for,now you can start to qualify them. 

KEF are not American made. 

Hello,
I know it is very difficult to buy 100% American made. Some companies do their do diligence to handle this. The one that comes to mind is Ayre Acoustics. The store I buy my gear from is the new Chicagoland Ayre dealer. Even cooler they have them set up with the KEF blades. Ayre is one of those components that seems to push all speakers well. If you are in the area here is the website for the store. https://holmaudio.com/

I'm really unhappy with the speakers I have hooked up to them right now (Tekton Double Impact) but when I bought my Klipsch"

Interesting, a  TektonDouble Impact user NOT satisfied?

 PL/Upscale=some "get it" some don't. The "don'ts" just need to keep shopping.

My experience with Upscale is somewhat limited, I only bought a PL EVO 300 and a pair of Klipsch Forte 4's from them but when I bought my amp Todd could have sold me more stuff but didn't.  

Now, I can't really comment on the PL yet because I'm really unhappy with the speakers I have hooked up to them right now (Tekton Double Impact) but when I bought my Klipsch, Sean was professional and took a lot of time with me.  

I saw a video once that Kevin did in his home garage and it, was, NICE. He has some really nice cars and motorcycles and the garage is professionally built so he has a big nut so I understand the aggressive stance he takes and I'm from NY so I like the straight no BS position he takes.  People can be very difficult and sales is a bitch so I get it.  So far I really like them.

Be well ya'all, Phil

@andysf  Interesting point. Would be interesting to have something like a "fair trade" label on audio to ensure that not only products but components are sourced in ethical ways and with working conditions that are up to snuff, too. And, of course, where profits go. This is, implicitly, something which Schiit has done, I think.

Funny thing about Cayin. I had my Cayin HA-300 repaired buy Jake Horowitz who's part of Westrex, a division of Western Electric and who has worked on tube amp for long a time. He was surprised at how good the Cayin HA-300 was, even with the stock TJ Full music tubes.

I had to get a wire-wound resistor replaced because sadly one of  my 1 year 2 months Psvane ACME 300b tube, which I really love on this amp, flashed white and damaged it.

I got the amp back and it still sounds great with my Chord HUGO TT2 + Audeze LCD-3, but now I'm waiting for a pair of reissue Western Electric 300b.

I've only heard the Primalunda EVO300 once at Upscale, but that wasn't a fair comparison because it was hooked up to a DCS Bartok, which is my end game DAC.

kevin deal is usa importer and part owner of primaluna

you call the phone # for primaluna support for usa it rings a different line in kevin’s location...

https://www.primaluna-usa.com/contact

https://www.google.com/maps/place/2058+Wright+Ave,+La+Verne,+CA+91750/@34.0944727,-117.773802,19z/da...

Those folks are one town over for me, so I go to them for tubes and I actually bought my Rega turntable from them as well. Not a bad company to buy from.

That being said, they are very salesy. The amount they push primaluna gear makes it very obvious that they have some sort of skin in the game. 

There’s a lot  of BS in the adverts C core transformers are far better like the world class Lundahl you see in Ayon for example , Torroid are better in solid state gear
look at-any top quality tube amp C cores only .
and the auto bias system nothing to tag about bunches of resistors in the auto bias. Ayon night and day more reliable and high tech ,it doesnot average all the tubes like in auto bias , the Ayon has a micro  processor and monitors each tube 
for optimum Ma voltage , and when a tube goes the amp will go into standby and a led will come on , you reset the bias and the processor readjusts it .
far better and a machined aluminum  case for vibration ,not cheap sheet metal.

A couple of people have pointed out that the Prima Luna amps are made by Cayin/Spark but did not mention that Cayin/Spark is owned by the Chinese government as part of the large CATIC group. Quite simply, every dollar of profit from your purchase  of a Cayin amp goes directly to a government that runs vast re-education camps, oppresses dissent in Tibet and Hong Kong and promotes the use of slave and forced labor in the country's workforce.  Personally, this is more off putting than Mr. Deal's communication skills.

I bought a used EVO 100, not from Upscale, and had a couple of very minor concerns and questions.  Kevin could not have been kinder or more helpful, despite zero potential for making a dime from me, at least in that moment.  I'd have no concerns about doing business with them.  Just my $.02/YMMV.

Hello,
The way I see it half day he is good and the other half say he is bad. Kevin, you are a genius for getting people to talk about you and your company for so long. There is no such thing as bad publicity because it ends up being free advertising!
he is like the Madonna of the audio world. Maybe Prima Luna Madonna. He’s a smart guy. 

there was an extensive, sometimes flame filled thread on primaluna not long ago... went on for many many pages

lots has been hashed out there

Prima Luna, Upscale Audio and Kevin Deal are all terrific partners. The gear is wonderful and a terrific value. I dont presently own any but I could live happily ever after with a system from Upscale and Kevin. Over the past 20 years I have pirchased alot of tubes, accessories and gear from Kevin. He has always been honest and square and made things right whenever it was required. Jared is as well.

Buy from him or dont but he is a straight shooter. Ive heard through the years that he might be short if someone is looking for a conversation or a debate rather than advice or gear. YMMV

I'd walk away.  Can't imagine the service would be any better if you actually had an issue with a product that you bought from them.  

It depends on your current system and your speakers but the prima luna stuff is good if you have very efficient high impedance speakers other than that it would only be good for background music on most low impedance speakers tube electronics are very sensitive to many kinds of speakers so be careful with tube gear in general but if you mate the tubes with the right kind of speaker magic can happen and frequently does.

I forgot to mention, above, about my Prima Luna experience.  I was very interested in a new PL Evo 400 amp.  Kevin told me that he didn't think it was a good match for my very inefficient speakers.  Hmm, even though I was interested in PL Kevin advised otherwise.  Now that is contrary to much of what is cited above.  However, he did say that if I wanted to try the amp with my speakers, that I could.  I gave him a deposit in the amount we agreed upon and took home the floor sample unit.  Kevin was right, it did not do well with my speakers.  The mids and highs sounded great, but there was not much in the way of bass slam.  When I took back the amp we discussed a solid state amp from Balanced Audio Technology as the best choice for the sound quality I was seeking along with very solid driving capabilities for my speakers.  Kevin gave me a killer price on a new, factory sealed unit.  It worked fantastic with those speakers.  Since then I sold those speakers and now I have new speakers that are much more efficient. I spoke with Kevin and he worked another killer price for me on a Balanced Audio Technology tube amp.
Like I said above, Upscale Audio is first rate in my book.  They have steered me right to what is best for my needs and provided excellent prices to go along with excellent service.  Awesome sauce!

There are dealers who are knowledgeable, experienced, honest, and treat their customers with courtesy. They get my💰. 

I have bought from Upscale many times. They were always helpful and never pushy or agressive. My PL Integrated works well for me and I am satisfied. 

I have no idea when I bought my Primaluna Prologue One from Upscale, but I'm pretty sure Kevin was a one man shop working out of his house. As I remember it, his wife was not happy at having nerdy guys show up and having to listen to stereo being blasted all day. Kevin was/is every bit the high pressure guy, but it was obvious he had a great set of ears.

In any event, my audition with the Prologue One went great. Lovely, immersive sound quality, with a midrange to revel in. It didn't matter to me whether Primaluna was a house brand or not...and I got to tell you I never bothered to explore the issue further.  The integrated has also been surprisingly reliable. (I've posted a list in another discussion topic that tells of the sorry parade of components that has marched through my listening room.)  I've already mentioned the resister(capacitor?) problem I had, which Upscale fixed there and then when I hauled it in. I was still living nearby.

When the integrated's tubes would inevitably lose their luster I'd phone Upscale up and a salesman (hey, not Kevin anymore!) would ask me questions about my tastes and suggest a tube that might serve me better.  I'd show up at their now shiny offices and take them home. I'd put them in their sockets. They'd sound great.  No biasing required. Nowadays I gotta mail order.

To be sure, the Integrated's looks are utilitarian at best. It's hard for me to read where the input knob is positioned so I've taken to writing my input choices on bits of white adhesive tape and sticking them to the Integrated's front. What me worry?

Life is too short to have to deal with these types of attitudes. Find another dealer to give your $$$ to.

Once I bought a rectifier Kevin advertised as a Holland-made Amperex. He was hyping these tubes at the time as the greatest ever. When I got it I checked the etched factory code on the bottle and guess what, it said it was from Barcelona. So I emailed him to ask why, if it was made in Barcelona, was he was advertising it as Holland-made? I quickly got an aggressive phone call telling me the factory code didn’t matter--he knew it was from Holland. I asked how; he said he met an old man in Holland who had worked at the Heerlen plant, and this man told him so. I asked, so I should believe the second-hand claim of an old Dutch fellow instead of the factory code? He said yes. Maybe he was right, but I have never heard another tube seller say factory codes lie.

I had one dealing with Upscale and it was Kevin I dealt with, I was seeking a specific tube he had in stock and asked his opinion of it in my system. He told me he did not give opinions and then proceeded to give me his opinion on everything but what I had asked him his opinion on. Bought the tube in spite of that scenario but will never deal with them again. Enjoy the music

Upscale sells great procts, albeit at full price.

however, all brands are at the mercy of their unrelenting push from Prima luna gear.  Heavily biased."

Why wouldn't they push PL? He is the distributor of PL USA.

"Its ugly and not high end quality.  Good value but not as good as high end stuff."

jumia-
PL wouldn't have 18 years of positive writeups if all reviwers/end users  felt the same way. You had a bad experience with whomever at Upscale, just move on. There isn't one establishment that fits all customers.

10+ year customer/PL user.

As far as the Nucleus is concerned I wouldn’t get either of them. As I have described before on other threads I sold my Innuos Zenith Mk3 and replaced it with a fanless Azulle Inspire i5 mini PC running ROCK. Yes I do have a LPS powering it and an AQ Diamond Ethernet cable connecting it to an SOtM switch. But those were about the same with the Innuos. Roon Remote runs way better on the Azulle and SQ is at least as good as on the Innuos. Definitely no worse. Possibly better. All at a fraction of the cost of a Nucleus, Innuos or any other marketed Roon core server. 

@juima,

IMO you are wrong on most every count. Prima Luna is High End regardless weather you like it or not. Still waiting to see what you have now? Many have asked, yet you say nothing. I have bought from Upscale many times and Kevin was a joy to work with, he has never steered me wrong yet.   He knows more about tubes than most of us and Upscale has always shipped my orders on the day I ordered, or the very next day at most. 

"...When i spoke to them, a macintosh amp was criticized vs being told a prima luna integrated amp would be better..."

I sold my Mac MC402, kept my PrimaLuna. YMMV

Upscale sells great procts, albeit at full price.

however, all brands are at the mercy of their unrelenting push from Prima luna gear.  Heavily biased. 
When i spoke to them, a macintosh amp was criticized vs being told a prima luna integrated amp would be better.  And saying a nucleus was inferior to nucleus plus due to it being pcm vs getting full resolution with a nucleus plus, etc.

once these guys mention primaluna, i lose interest.  Its ugly and not high end quality.  Good value but not as good as high end stuff. 

Thus far the OP has not yet stated what products he currently owns nor did he say whom he spoke with at Upscale though bashing them for being rude and pushy.  Yet, there are plenty of convictions stated above that it must be Kevin.  Full stop...

I have known Kevin for many years and have been a customer of Upscale for the majority of my present system.  Kevin is a first rate human being who is as honest as the day is long.  That includes his business ethics as well as his recommendations.  We all have personalities and if you don't like his than so be it.  He is quite the character but, frankly, I quite enjoy it.  Everyone who works at Upscale lives up to the name "upscale".  They are as friendly as they are knowledgeable and treat their customers very well.  There will always be some folks who are dissatisfied with a service and/or a product, no matter what.  I can certainly understand that can be the case with Upscale, just like any other business.  Kevin runs a fabulously successful business and is on a growth trajectory that is enviable of nearly any business, let alone businesses in the audio industry.  If anyone is not satisfied with one business then simply move on to another, or another, until you are individually satisfied.  It's a very simple and painless process.

The OP can do as he wishes.  For me, I'll stick with Upscale Audio.  They are first rate in my book.

I auditioned the primaluna dialog premium from upscale and was thoroughly impressed. They are built like a T34 tank and are underrated or under recognized for overall warmth and quality. After auditioning several amps I ultimately went with Atmasphere M60s due to their superior resolution. 
I have a feeling this amp and say a Cornwall are a match made in heaven.

Check out some of Kevin Deals video reviews. He is quite the character. Not surprised he can be a salesman as well;-).

Any time you find a dealer or manufacturer who talks smack about competitors and/or what you own, you can't walk away fast enough.

There was a dealer nearby to me who had all manner of bad things to say about my then magnepan speakers while diligently trying to steer me to Focal. I never went into that store again.

Oz

Evan at Upscale provided great customer service when I felt the need for a high-end streamer and amicable outboard DAC -- even tho he turned out wrong about some details. My search quickly narrowed to Lumin and Aurender, and Evan talked me through the models and their suitability for my particular needs. When he championed Musical Fidelity M6s DAC, I remembered an unused trade credit from another merchant and obtained the DAC there. Well, turned out the Lumin worked only on the micro-USB input: frankly unlistenable on coax or optical; defective. Plus the MF had no AES input as Evan had thought. Those limitations, plus the fact I found the Lumin app rather maddening, led to an exchange (though I must say the LUMIN sound was incomparably pure, best streaming audio in my experience).

No trouble at all exchanging Lumin for Aurender, which outputs ONLY USB. For this connection you obviously want the best cable you can get. Evan had the mistaken impression that AQ's top-end USB 3.0 micro terminals were backward compatible with 2.0 in the MF, but nope. Anyhow, easy return. Now in the market for a more contemporary DAC, so I asked about the PrimaLuna tube version. Needless to say, Evan was a major advocate (though I found several unrelated reasons to rule it out). 

Well, hyping your own gear is all part of the job description, so grain of salt on that. Customer service was first-rate, and the Aurender is staying indefinitely, so ++ there. Return customer discounts are available on SOME DACS sold by Upscale, but none of those ring my chimes. When time allows I'll audition Bricasti and such. Still, Upscale will stay on my "reasonable candidates" list, albeit in the "proceed with caution" section like 99% of other merchants.

I skip over a dealer here in the Bay just to deal with Upscale. That same bad experience with this dealer is what drove me to Upscale. I haven't once ever had Kevin answer the phone, which I doubt he even does. Also, all his people I've dealt with are all great. 

As is typical in many of these threads, the OP starts a rant ant then disappears, not bothering to answer a simple question.... what is your system? If you don’t like the way you were treated ,shop elsewhere. Im sure at some point being on the phone with tire kickers can be tiring and seen as a waste of time. Kevin runs a business that is successful enough that he can avoid kissing ass. He is also very knowledgeable,but if his business model offends you, shop with your feet. That simple.

mozartfan, pick up the current issue of Stereophile , it has an article titled Hi-Fi in the Age of Covid -19 , it will give you a different perspective of the current state of the audio industry then your " These are very hard times in new audio sales". Plus, while I’m not a fan of Upscale Audio from a couple of prior interactions, it doesn’t seem like Kevin Deal and Upscale are having a hard time (" he’s having a rough time selling new."), again take a look in each of the last few months of Stereophile, he has personnel recruiting ads for his business expansion.

"plus he pushes Tannoy that is ancient history"
Lmao, you have no idea what you are talking about.....

@mozartfan I've heard from a longtime experienced speaker maker that Cayin is the real deal and very similar to PL. He thinks they're a great deal.

I had a lovely conversation with John Rutan at Audio Connection. Why not work with someone with both expertise and sympathy for the customer. You want tubes? Quicksilver and/or Rogue would be great. QS is made in CA. Rogue in PA.  My two cents.

I’ve had 2 dealings with Upscale. The first I called to enquire about a CJ ET3se preamp. I talked to Kevin who then educated me on the difference between PL preamp & the CJ. Though I understand his logic, I don’t necessarily use the weight & the amount of stuff in the piece as the only criteria. Yes the CJ looks very sparse under the hood while the PL is packed full. CJ has a simplicity is better while PL packs it full. OK. I didn’t really get upset but thought his demeanor out of line. And I have no PC in my blood whatsoever. But I am aware that I can be abrasive to some & try to find workarounds to make the customer comfortable. Kevin doesn’t seem to know of his abrasive nature or doesn’t care. Not a good business practice IMO.

The 2nd time I called to get info and buy a PL Dialogue amp. I talked to Kat & she answered my questions fine. I was looking a 2 different amps and wanted time to weigh my decision. I called back the next day to purchase and she wasn’t in so I left a message to call me back. 2or 3 days later I had not heard from her. Forty + years of business has taught me that sometimes messages don’t get to their proper place so I called again and left another message for her. That was a year or so ago. Still haven’t heard from her or anyone. I bought another amp from someone else. Lesson learned

He maybe right what do you have?


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
More than likely Kevin is correct, 
Most tube amplifiers are colored =  add distortion. 
Cayin made in same lab as PL, have zero coloration,  zero distortion. 
So my guess is PL are neutral amps, can't say for sure as i have not personally heard  a  PL, only a  Cayin amplifierr, The lil baby EL34

From what I've read and learned, Primaluna is good but "top shelf"? Um, can't see that


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I can 
JUst based on the fact that PL is made in Spark's lab, Same lab as Cayin, Cayin is only 2nd to Jadis, Jadis is #1. So thats saying alot  for cayin and MOST LIKELY Prima  Luna. AS Top Dawg Amplifiers