Upscale Audio and Primaluna

The fact is that professional salesmen posing as audiophiles make orders of magnitude more money than experienced audiophiles posing as salesmen.

Who did you talk to? I buy a lot of stuff from them if you were calling about amps or speakers  you need to talk with Joel. He is a very knowledgeable salesman. Don’t waste your time with the guy answering the phone. BTW PL is a good brand.

Prima luna , so tough too love

Sounds like OP was doing the same thing that he accused Kevin of.  I've been told the most outrageous things over the years, and it doesn't have to be audio.  Sure, you can tell me why I should buy your stuff and compare my equipment to yours but I don't like badmouthing.

@emergingsoul Primaluna doesn’t make speakers.

 

@fredcdobbs Maybe all audiophiles should band together and cease support for any country which oppresses dissent, makes missiles, builds bio weapons or forces workers to pay taxes. I think the Ivory Coast and New Zealand are safe.

Prima Luna speakers, any good?

Right on Andysf. If a Chinese company is not run by the government, they and all the workers pay taxes that go to oppression of dissent, hypersonic missiles. Covid labs that are weaponizing disease. Your choice. But I think things have gone too far. Just a matter of time. 

 

Kevin and the folks at Upscale are awesome.

Why is a 6 month old post relevant?

I auditioned my last two pair of speakers on Prima Luna integrated amps and they sounded really good.  I think Upscale’s intentions are good, bringing good sound at prices most people can afford.   

Kevin and Upscale has always treated me well.  I've purchased a Primaluna Dialogue integrated, various tubes over years,  Manley Chinook SE MK2 phono preamp and Dynavector 20x2L cartridge.  Have had several conversations with Kevin and you can feel his passion. I've never thought he pushed anything on me without backing it up with facts and expert knowledge.  Kat was great also and followed up my Manley purchase to make sure I was satisfied.  I'm sure Kevin has been an arse to some customers and I'm sure I would be also putting up with the public for as long as he has. I think we all know it can be challenging, we are human and make mistakes.  Going forward I wouldn't hesitate to do business with Upscale again.  Kevin deserves to be successful.  He's paid his dues and cares about his staff and making customers happy.  

I saw Kevin compare PL and Audio research amp on youtube and as a audio research user I am impressive about it.

 

@femoore12 +1

I forgot to say Thank You to our customers who chimed in here and to give thanks for allowing me to work in an industry I've loved since I was 10 years old when I hacked my mom's console stereo with box speakers.

Some people that are hobbyists that open stores ruin the hobby because retail is difficult, but that never happened to me. 

I’ve purchased several components and tubes from Upscale Audio. It’s been a great experience every single time. Great people working there. Thanks!

Well, a lot of comments. Here are the truths about me and my business. I have never wanted to tell people what tube to buy because it is not possible,and people used to grind on me to say SOMETHING and get pissed if I didn’t. Granted this would be the same customer that would want to return it because "You told me to buy it". You audiophiles are here because you’re not all there (grin). Try spending an hour on a $30 tube sale when you are up to your ass. You think it’s easy? Open a tube business.

If any salesperson working for me talks crap about your system I want to know who it is because I’ll fire them. I never hear that from people, most likely because they are on hourly wage and getting paid the same whether it’s selling $100k speakers or helping some old dude get his streamer working. However today people look to get offended sometimes.

We have technical trainings all the time. My sales staff is comprised of people that have upwards of 35 years of experience, many that worked at high levels for manufacturers, a cartridge designer, a full-on bench tech, tube expert, and tweek doing customers support. I’m gathering the best people and paying them well, but never incentifying bad behavior. I don’t get to help customers but instead, teach and make employees experts.

Yes, the company is on a big trajectory. I was going to retire at 55, and I’m 63 now. I have employees that have been here for close to 25 years, and what am I going to do with them? They gave their lives to me. I owe them. Jared’s parents tell me every Christmas how grateful they are that I employ their son. It’s my privilege. I’ll hopefully create something that is so great, with management much smarter than me, and a company that is well-respected and when I croak it will continue and do good things and the core team will be happy they are here. I have no kids. They are my kids.

Since 2003 PrimaLuna has been on fire, experiencing double-digit growth even during the recession. It has zero to do with any other brand, it is made in the best factory in the world, where there were two Japanese brands being manufactured but labeled "made in Japan". There’s a major US brand that makes nothing,but assembles Chinese pre-made kits, and calls them "Made in USA" And they are a better product because of it, sadly. And a certain Austrian brand is mostly Chinese. PrimaLuna has always been transparent, including the most important part: Telling you what’s in the box.

We would not be growing like this if we weren’t doing the right thing. We have told many people don’t buy a PrimaLuna if it’s not right for them. It’s been said here by another member. I just did that this week with a guy who inherited DQ10’s, plays it loud, and has a huge room. He REALLY wants one because his other friend has one and loves it so much.

All my employees love PL. For a reason. I’ll say this and I am happy to prove it: PrimaLuna IS top-shelf in the tube world, and you are welcome to trot down any amp of similar power and we’ll do a level-matched blind A/B. Name a brand. I think VAC is great stuff. I’ve done it already. All you nervous nellies would be surprised how close any good tube amps sound to each other level-matched.

All PrimaLuna was engineered by the former Chief Engineer at Goldmund.in Switzerland. The team has expanded with new projects. Our new Hybrid had the best guys in Europe working on it, and it’s the shit. Parts you would see in a D’Agostino, but without the meters. And price tag.

Our auto-bias design is state of the art. Period. Ayon should show a picture of their auto-bias board. I’ll bet it’s great, but show it. We do. Don’t take anyone’s word for anything. Not even me. I have a video coming showing the Raven Audio "fully auto bias" design. You won’t believe this one.

Anyway, I’ll probably regret crawling out of my hole to post this. I’ll crawl back in now. Whatever you folks get I hope you love it. Hope you are having fun.

 

 

I have a PrimaLuna Dialogue Premier HP amp.  Couldn’t be happier with it.  Sounds great and takes any hassle of tubes out . . . No biasing, can switch between triode and pentode modes, with the stock tubes is 75wpc and two in mono pumps out 170wpc, and a warning light for tube failure that actually works. I can’t say anything about OP’s post other than you should definitely give it a listen.  Ultimately, that is the test.

Yesterday I used Upscale's website to ask for a recommendation for two 6550's, one 12AX7, and two 5AR4 rectifiers for an amp I have under construction (Ampsandsound Nautilus). Sean at Upscale responded courteously that they no longer make recommendations due to some-I gather-customer complaints. I responded by asking for three or so options for each tube and Sean did (though there was only one 5AR4 on offer). Sean immediately responded with options and I selected and paid and minutes later I got notice they were being shipped. Whenever possible, I select from "Kevin's Stash". I like how UA offers tiers of testing results on some tubes-Gold, Platinum, and Kevin's. 
Five years ago I bought a brand new ARC Ref 6 from a local dealer at full MSRP and an ARC Ref 150 SE as a dealer demo model at half-price with something like 20 hours on the tube timer. The amp arrived with a dead KT150. I bought two spare KT150's from Upscale after discussing the amp and it biased within spec and has been serving me well all these years later. 
As to Audio Research, even when McIntosh Group owned it the products were built by hand and under the management of Warren Gehl. One look at the inside of the Ref 6 through the standard plexiglass top cover shows it is built with premium parts. Point to point wiring is not inherently superior to use of circuit boards. A look into the PL gear shows both PtP wiring and circuit boards btw. PtP wiring does allow for easy repairs. My Ref 6 is dual mono, does have tube rectification, but not PtP wiring. Being one of those who believes the preamp is the very heart and single most important choice of any audio system, I love my Ref 6. 
But I also love simple designs done right and that is why I have an Ampsandsound Nautilus coming my way-an 8 watt amp/headphone amp that weighs 65 pounds! Built the way amps used to be built 60 years ago. 

I don’t care what gear you have.  It looks like you were just trying to vent about one of the unfortunate sales practices in this industry.  That unfortunately takes place .  It’s the approach that is meant to tell you what you can and should change to better your system and knowing what you have is helpful information to the salesman.  Being that many in this Audiophile lifestyle have bottomless check books it’s a sales practice that does in fact build some great systems when the salesperson has some actual knowledge and skill.I find the sales practice is worse when the person is an audio snob.  
I like it when your looking for used audio gear and you just want to see what they have available.  Most places won’t just simply give you a list.  They will start to question you about your system and then try to sell you something that is over your states budget.  Then if and when you find something in their stash that is within your budget they shoot it down.  Like they really don’t want to sell it.  
There is also the sales approach where they question you about what’s important to you such as soundstage or bass and proceed to push something you heard already that you feel does not offer it.  When you tell them that they proceed to crap on the setup or the place you listened to them at.

If I have a good budget I would take the time to answer their questions and listen to their advise if they have a reputation for being trustworthy in their advise. But if I am going to trust their advise I like to grill the salesman about what they listen to when they want to demo a speaker with good base.  If they start walking about string instruments and make vocals I know their interpretation of good bass may be different than mine.  From that point on I know when they say deep bass, I need to take that with a grain of salt.

Jumia,

haha, haha! That’s too funny 

I’d like to see Kevin advocate the benefits of eating healthy food.  He would save the world.

prima luna peas for all!

So many surface dwellers, lol. Some people like to be told what to do and some become a sponge and absorb information, do their research and buy what they like. Education is key as well as reading is fundamental. Some folks want the easy road and some don’t mind doing the research along with getting some insight from dealers. At the end of the day, don’t get upset when a HiFi store tells you that you are an idiot for not buying what they are telling you to buy, lol. At the end of the day, is that what you want in life especially if they haven’t even been to your home? What if a car dealership told you the same thing (you came to buy a Ford Raptor but he sold you a Ford F-250 Diesel. Would you comply just like that in the audio world? Your choice is what you and only you will have to live with. Don’t get confused with not listening to what they have to say. They may or may not have points that are valid. Now if you came to my home, examined the future listing room and understood what I’m looking for in sound as well as taste, I’m even more open to suggestions as well as taking valid points to improve my systems. For me, that’s the kind of advice I would be more open to. Obviously, this is not my first rodeo and I’ve been to over 200+ Audio stores in the world. I’m truly blessed. Take that for what it’s worth and enjoy the music.

If you want to be coddled search around and you'll find somone who will sell you something that works for him and not you. First time i talked to Kevin on the phone--he got real animated and shouted "listen to what I am telling you" just like on you tube. it was so hilarious that he laughed at me laughing at him. Turns out he was right. I buy from the facts, which is what you get when you deal with anyone there

And geez, eveytime I hear a guy like you whingingand not asking anyone here for help, its time for someone to close the thread

ghasley,

The reason for the post was to illustrate that these issues can happen at any brick and mortar dealer. I like Kevin. He is very direct. What you see is what you get but at the end of the day, you have to pull up your big boy pants and make your own choices. Also, Upscale Audio VS Wilson Audio from experience, are no different from one another when it comes to the quality of equipment and knowledge you receive. Honestly, Doug is well known across the country and is best friends with Richard Gray. The gear he carries is equally as nice. He is also one of the best Audio Research Dealers in the country. Like I stated earlier, you definitely have to have thick skin when dealing with Doug. He will tell you your gear is junk and you should buy Audio Research. 

@decathlon1991 Man, my apologies, who knew you were posting about an obscure brick and mortar dealer in New Orleans on an Upscale Audio/Primaluna thread. What on earth was I thinking? I obviously thought you were posting about the only Wilson Audio that most people on audiogon would have likely known of and assumed as well. You and I both have the right to comment on any thread we choose. Peace. 

Ghasley,

if you’re going to respond negatively with your bias remarks, at least be a fly on the wall. Folks I know including myself have been through this experience. Has it stopped me in the past from buying from them, not at all. I became a smarter buyer from my experience. NOLA is lacking in the HiFi world and I don’t expect it to be New York or California where there are plenty of competition to choose from. My remarks were to educate from first hand EXPERIENCE, (the truth) not support friends or family business. Don’t get butt hurt over others experience. Listen and learn because others don’t always have the same experience as you claim to have. If the truth is too painful for you to swallow, get over it because this thread doesn’t pertain to you. Next time try reading the headlines before you chime in on ones or others experience. Sad, smh!

@decathlon1991 If you are going slam a manufacturer, at least go to the trouble to get the names right. The late David Wilson was not a pushy person, enthusiastic yes, pushy no. I havent witnessed the bahavior you describe by Daryl Wilson either. Oh well, at the end of the day, its the end of day right?

Time out! If we are being or crediting someone for being brutally honest, then let’s call a spade, a spade! It is an aggressive sales pitch. That’s the honest truth. Doug Wilson at Wilson Audio and others have mastered this aggressive technique for decades. To me it’s no different than any car salesman. When they are trying to make you take steps forward, take a deep breath and take several steps back and examine the situation. At the end of the day you control your own narrative. If you give up that power, at the end of the day, you can only blame yourself. Do what you have to do to make a conscious decision like demoing the product and doing your own research. This is what we try to do with cars right? Take the same approach because at the end of the day, no home or room is the same. Hope this helps.

Enjoy the Music!!

I've purchased a bunch of tubes and more recently a PrimaLuna  Evo 300 power amp from Upscale. Every interaction has been excellent.
One of the stock EL34s gave up a week into ownership (bad tube). I had a new tube at my door within 2 days, and I'm practically as far from California as you can get.

IMO we're lucky to have an outfit like UA. They sell quality gear, buy ad space, and aren't endlessly shilling "We think..." products they sell on these forums like audiotroy.

I auditioned my last two pairs of speakers driven by a PL 40 watt EL34 based integrated amp and they sounded great together.   They are decent amps regardless of country of origin.   

For me Quicksilver represents the best value in tube amps.   But I am biased....pun intended

@mammothguy54 ... which BAT amp did you buy?

Ya man!  I just bought another BAT amp from Upscale too.  As usual, Kevin took very good care of me.  I have bought numerous products from Upscale.  Everyone at Upscale Audio has been courteous and helpful.  And especially Kevin, who has steered me right for years.  

I’ve been a customer of Kevin’s since 2001. In all that time, NOT ONCE has he misled me, been rude, or steered me in the wrong direction. Back in the day, Kevin was just starting up and used to answer the phone himself ... we would speak a good deal about my system, audio in general, and music. Kevin is a very smart, eclectic guy.  There were times when I was ready to buy something and he told me I didn’t need it for my system, so he passed on a sale to do what was right for his customer. Kevin always has taken the time to listen to me and, yes, has always given me a "smokin’ deal." Last month, I bought a BAT preamp and tubes from him, and I am thrilled with them. Although Kevin wasn’t around when I made the purchase, his salesperson was first rate and was a pleasure to do business with. In addition, I had emailed Kevin about the preamp and he responded promptly, courteously, and informatively. In all, my experiences with Upscale over 20 years have been extremely positive and I would not hesitate to buy from them again.

@upscaleaudio    

   We agree with quite a lot you wrote.
it’s a business.   I sold stereos for two years, and ours was commission to a % of the sale.    Being a salesman is not that easy, as it’s not so much making the sale, it’s being in the right place at the right time, most stereo/component buyers are already determined to buy when they get in their car and drive to a audio shoppe.

  In the audio only shoppe it’s a %85-90 purchase ratio, compared to the stereo shoppe I worked at in the early 90’s, which was located in a local large shopping mall, where dads, kids, and so on, are just wasting time browsing while waiting for their wife to finish shopping, not really interested in a pair of speakers, or anything component wise.  

  I get your point of view, and you have said a lot of good things, and honest things, much appreciated @upscaleaudio. 

Sometimes we forget that audio stores are owned and run by humans.  Enjoyable thread. 

"These are very hard times in new audio sales. The fallout from this latest economic crunch has dampened the audio market."

Well Kevin must be doing OK.  I see he posted a wanted ad in Excellence magazine for a Porsche GT3.  

I have talked to him on the phone a few times, he is all business for sure, but that's ok with me.

Kevin;  Thanks for the insightful response.  Good to know.  

enjoy

@upscaleaudio Even though it takes waaaay too much time for someone trying to run a business, I know I speak for others in thanking you for your posts.

I don't know about everyone else but I wouldn't have the patience to be a high end dealer like Kevin does. I remember just shaking my head after attending an audio show and there appeared to be a great many old caucasians in dad jeans badly in need of a "manzierre" communicating with amp and speaker manufacturers why their very own amp and speakers were the best. Alot of lonely people I guess.

Keep it up Kevin and thanks for all you and your team do to keep the hobby going. Once again, @upscaleaudio takes space at audio shows, invests in his people, hosts local audio clubs, they take trades, they are both online and brick and mortar. I don't have what it takes to do what they do. The unique combo of having bottomless patience and broad audiophile shrink skills is truly rare.

Primaluna is great gear. I am sorry for your bad sales experience. I went to a Minneapolis dealer.  Told him up front my gear which was a 40 year old Crown PL1 SL1. He never said anything to knock what I had. It held it's own against a Freya & Vidar.
I did a side by side between a Hegel H390, and a Primaluna EVO 100.  I picked the Primaluna and six months later loving it. Primaluna is a new level of audio performance. I hope you dont miss out on something good because of that experience.

@arafiq Al my sales staff are different.  One customer might feel this salesperson is too touchy-feely and wants to get to the point, and another wants a new friend.  Everyone's different, whether customer or staff. 

If you meet one that you like, ask for them.  Nobody gets butt hurt that you bought from another salesperson because they don't get paid for selling it to you. We're implementing new software systems next month that will make it easier than ever for you to have a history with us so we know where your heads at and get right to your favorite person.  If that person is out, anyone can step in and look at your audio "medical records"

As to being too busy, yes that was true, especially during Covid.  Even the first quarter of 2021 we were up 70% over 2020.  That may sound good to you but not to me.  My employees are not machines.  They are people and absolutely beat tired.  Tough year given they had to work remotely at times and there have been so many product supply problems.    

Just last week with everything like travel re-opening it suddenly and profoundly slowed down.  Thank God. But I'm TRULY SORRY if anyone sounded rushed during the peak periods.

Also before I bag out of here I'd like to say something about tube life.  The best tube tester is your ears.  Buy a new set, run them 200 hours, then compare them to the old set.  If the old ones sound good then leave them.  Yes you can get a lot more hours than you think from tubes.  It depends on how hard they are running. 

I have a customer that was new to tubes that bought a DiaLogue Premium with KT120's and his buddy told him to never turn it off as it would sound better so he did just that for over six months before checking back with us.   I told him that's not good and with over 4300 hours he should replace them.  But because I wanted to help him out we would re-test his now worn-out tubes to see if anything could be salvaged.   

I was shocked after I tested them.  He had the original boxes with test results and after 4300 hours they were at 90% of new.  Running a low plate voltage and easy biasing works.  Regardless, it's about the sound.  Especially when tubes are new old stock or are expensive. 

About the fellow that got a bad tube and his ARC amp blew up.  We buy from where they buy.  I pay more for my KT150's wholesale than guys sell them for on Ebay, so use your noggin.  We burn them in for 72 hours, and I had custom programming done for my Ampitrex to mimic the actual ARC design, and we've had great success with that. We spend 10 minutes testing each KT150 because they have to settle down. If there was any process that could be improved, we would do it. 

But any tube can fail.  They have failures too.     KT150's are kind of a jacked-up tube because they can take a hit in shipping that changes how they measure. Rare, but happens.  I have had guys buy tubes from ARC and had shorts that broke their amps and they don't pay for repairs if your amp is out of warranty. Things simply don't work that way.  

A tube short should not break your amp if it has a plate fuse, but up until just recently, ARC did not use them.  Now that's changing. I know my stuff and worked for a very large ARC dealer (probably the biggest) way back in the day.  My Classic 60 blew up twice but I was probably asking for it dinking around too much.  Back then I had plate and screen resistors on hand to do it myself. 

Great people, nice amp but that's the way it is.   New ownership there now and I bet they do good things. I wish them tons of success.  

 

I’ve called Upscale Audio a few times but have yet to buy anything from them. I never felt pressured to buy anything from them, let alone a Primaluna product. I think a lot depends on who you talk to on a given day. For example, when I was looking for a headphone amp, Kevin put me in touch with one of his headphone amp experts. We exchanged a couple of text messages, but as soon as I brought up another amp that I was considering (Quicksilver headphone amp), the guy disappeared. Simply stopped responding to my messages.

I called them another time to get advice on streamers. Totally opposite experience. The guy was courteous, responded to all my questions, and followed up with another call.

Based on my experience, and mine alone, I think that because they’re so busy, they put a higher premium on their time. So while I never felt pressured or shortchanged, I never got the same level of interest or the willingness to get to know me as a potential long term customer. Contrast this to a few other dealers I’ve talked to, e.g. Wolf Audio, John Ruttan, Reno Hifi, etc. They came across as folks who had a genuine interest in getting to know me, my current system, and my desired outcome. It almost felt like having a conversation with a good friend who is genuinely interested in building a long term relationship with you. Upscale Audio, while courteous and helpful, simply didn't give me the same level of attention. Of course, YMMV.

@fsonicsmith Thank you for your kind words and for reading my business right. I like selling big-ticket items too of course but spent my teenage years with my nose pressed up against the glass windows of stereo stores longing to get the best I could with not a lot of money. I get that.

The Ah! Tjoeb was a $549 bargain made in Holland. It weighed what it should. It was a life-changing product for me after making so many people happy.

The Chinook SE MKII with upgraded NOS tubes is $2799, and weighs as much or more than $5k preamps I can mention, and almost as much as a popular $9k preamp. Why then isn’t the Chinook $5k? Because EveAnna Manley said so. The prices charged by high-end audio manufacturers are sometimes arbitrary. If anyone wants a certain name and is willing to pay it that’s cool with me. I just tell it like it is.

The majority of companies do a great job with owners that really care. But no other industry would swallow the B.S. that gets sold here. There are more former nuclear submarine engineers with top-secret clearance working in audio than any other business. My Vice President Craig actually has that clearance and we laugh about coming out with some magic box. I’ve been asked to lend my name to projects that would be money-makers but were obvious snake oil so I declined. I would love to write a book. In 45 years in this industry, I’ve seen it all.

I have a little more insight into how stuff is made than most because I have samples traded in all the time. I love audio and understanding how things work. I take products apart and look up part numbers and their costs with my service tech who is also a pro audio circuit designer. Coming from pro audio he just shakes his head and laughs at some of the stuff we see. It would never fly in that business. Musicians are or often broke...and cheap.

I see "new upgraded" models with higher price tags using cheaper volume chips. I see an amp with two driver tubes and two gain tubes being replaced by a "new upgraded" model with a  higher price tag also with cheaper chips plus the elimination of driver tubes that get replaced with an FET. Or companies that tell you their cathode bias amp is auto bias. One of them actually changed their website description to what is technically correct after I pointed out to them it was misleading. Then months later, they changed it back to auto-bias.

Regardless, the vast majority of companies do a great job with wonderful owners that care about making a great product.

I’m tasked with explaining how the brands that I represent are made and work. Whether we retail or import/distribute them.

In every PrimaLuna video we produce, I talk about parts and engineering. Weight is a factor that I emphasize more with preamps because they can be a profit center for manufacturers. Much like soft drinks to a restaurant. As you said, parts quality is more important, which is why I show them and describe them in detail. I’m very proud of that. You guys have no idea what a freak Herman is about component selection. Part for part, I can compare PL to any brand at its price or double its price.

The late great Art Dudley said it best: "I’ve never seen a better-built amp. ... Someone made this as if it mattered."

To your point on the PrimaLuna preamp sound, second harmonics are certainly the way to go, which is why people (including me) love tubes.

But the real glory comes from the Holy Trinity for tube preamp design: Dual-mono, tube rectification, point-to-point wiring.

I think you are fine.  If you purchased a good set of tubes from Upscale that is wonderful.  My experience was different.  They said the tubes were matched and within Audio Research specs.  They weren't and it cost me over $3,000 to repair.  

I've purchased pre-amp tubes and phono stage matched tubes from Upscale and they were fine.  Wouldn't have a problem doing that again.  apologies if I gave the impression I wouldn't ever.  I'll just be more careful with power amp tubes.  That could be/was a costly mistake if they fair.  

I'm sure Upscale would have replaced the faulty tube, but they probably wouldn't have covered the repair costs of the amp.  Audio Research would.  But the tubes are probably twice as expensive.  But, AR does test and match each tube, and that does take time and expense to do that.

Also, I appreciate Kevin's response above.  It was well written and I really appreciate him stepping up with a response.  The Prima vs Audio Research REF 6 was an actual event that a good buddy of mine experienced.  I didn't appreciate the sales pitch where he was flatly told the prima was better.  That was crap and was unnecessary.  The Prima is a fine pre-amp for the money.  The REF 6 way more expensive and not in the class or range of the Prima.  Telling a potential buyer that solves the issue. 

That is like a mid range car vs a high end supercar.  Not even a fair comparison and who in their right mind would even compare the two?  Well, the rude people on the old top gear show maybe.  They compared a Camaro with a top of the line Mercedes AMG.  Stupid comparison.  not even in the same class or price range.  But, they really didn't like the USA, so there you are.

So, why compare a REF 6 with a Prima?  apples to apples would be better.  I've dealt with many fine dealers.  I've never done business with dealers that do that.  comparing a unit that is in the same price range or quality of a Prima?  I have no problem with that.  As a matter of fact, that is exactly what should be done.

enjoy

I've always replaced output tubes at the 2000-2500 hour mark. Could they go longer? Sure. But that's only if you are willing to live with the degradation in sound, because you will surely notice the improvement when you replace them. So it's a matter of how frugal you are vs how important the sound is to you. Tubes are just like us human beings. They start "dying" from the minute they start "living". And also just like us, the difference is subtle over time that we hardly notice it. But if you woke up tomorrow and were 20 again, I think you'd know.

Well, as far as time on the tubes, I changed my last set out when the hour meter on my projector, that I installed and turned on at the same time that I installed the 75SE, hit 3750 hours. Since there's no hour meter on the 75, 4500hrs was my estimate, since I listen to plenty of music without theater. Could have been more. The guys at Audio Research suggested it was time to swap 'em, so I called Upscale for some new ones.

My speakers are 97db efficient, and the Amp only dives the highs/mids, so if I see 5 watts on the needles it's LOUD.

In other words, the tubes are never stressed.

I run a set of 6H30DR true Super Tubes for twice that, so they'll get swapped to new 6H30DR's when the 150's get up there again. The DR's have a 10K hour rating from what I read. I swap the DR's in my preamp at the same time. No strange noises, and the big tubes never stray out of bias.

If you guys think I'm way out out line, I'm listening... 

I have resisted chiming in up til now. It is amusing to me that KD brought up the Ah! Tjoeb because that is exactly what I was going to bring up. My observation is that Upscale has always put forward-at center stage-bang for the buck products that might appeal to those that harangue the prices of top-shelf audio products. It is a great business model. Much more sophisticated gear than a certain Michigan-based retailer that sends out cheap paper flyers every three weeks. 
Another marketing technique that demonstrates KD's savvy is coming forward with some "special edition" of a high-profile product. We have seen that with his versions of VPI tables, the Manley Chinook, the Ah! Tjoeb (IIRC a modified Oppo), and many others. 
I do think KD's equation of weight to quality is bit askew. The more accurate answer is that it all depends. Certainly that Ah! Tjoeb cdp was not heavy compared to the competition nor the Manley Chinook. While an amp's weight, particularly if tubed, may demonstrate the amount of heavy iron incorporated (trannies), what if they are of mediocre quality? Is every single part incorporated in a piece of PL gear of the same quality and within the same spec as the higher priced competition? Common sense tells anyone with half a brain that the answer is "all depends upon which competitor you are talking about". And let's not forget that the euphonic qualities of PL pre-amps are due largely to being rather high in even order harmonic distortion. 

@rsf507 To be honest, If I wanted to modify my systems ,I went to my local dealers and listened. Home audio has been a distant second to live music for this old man.  The open space and closed showrooms of the pandemic brought me to the forums.Searching for opinions and access  that evaporated with the isolation of the pandemic.  I had little to add until people expressed their opinions about their experiences with a dealer I found to be exemplary. I have never received such a warm welcome to a forum before...a troll. Very cool. Thanks. 

Kevin thanks for clearing the air.

I have only had great interactions with your staff.