The new dCS Varese DAC...it is so good that all others are now relegated to history??

Uh reviewers gonna review?

I’m sure it sounds very good. 

I’m not prone to the hyperbole of a reviewer, or even an enthusiastic forum member. I recently read a review of a pink fuse on another forum that made it sound like THE most imporant piece of his system. Speakers, amps and source no longer matter.

But I did attend a private audition of the new Lampizator Horizon made to interface with the new Taiko audio server set up to bypass the bios in the processor. I felt like this is the next great step forward in audio.

This review doesn’t mention bypassing the bios does it?

Jerry

I am sure it is an exceptional stack. It should set the bar higher for companies that produce that flavor of sound. This is good.

Looking at his reference equipment... it also is of similar nature, DarTZeel. This is excellent equipment if it suites your taste.

I am always really impressed by Wilson speakers as well as dCS. Both, particularly their high end stuff is amazing... but something I do not want to own. It is dry and incredibly detailed. It does a great job of what it is intended to do. 

So, for me. It is good to hear that a flagship product breaks new ground... I am sure it does. But I am always tempered by the fact much of this stuff is not of my taste. That tempers much of the articles for me.

Did he bother to compare it to anything else?  I assume if it’s a typical TAS review he did not. 

I've heard Varese at a local dealer and also in two home systems that I know well. The dealer had a Vivaldi stack available to AB with and the two home systems had other top shelf sources to compare the Varese with (tape and/or vinyl). Although way out of my price range, Varese is worthy of hyperbole. It is simply spectacular in transparency, dynamics and musicality. Detailed, sure...but still musical. A clear step up from Vivaldi. And, depending on the recording, as good (certainly different presentation in some cases) than the very best tapes or vinyl on hand in the home auditions. 

As for an upgrade being released by dCS next year, I dunno. The former top of the dCS line Vivaldi was 10 years old before the Apex upgrade was introduced...and  the Apex modification was made available to current dCS customers for a relatively reasonable price (considering the price of the units originally). In fact, the Apex technology came from development of the Varese and was introduced in the lower end dCS models even before the Varese came out. 

That's one of those companies that sued a YouTube reviewer who said something subjective about their product they didn't agree with. I would never buy a product from a company that did that. dCS or MSB? Hmmm. They made it easy for me. 

Yes. It is the DAC to rule them all. Until next week when "The next DAC to rule them all" is released.

@geardaddie   You say the Varese was as good as vinyl or tape that was on hand. I have to believe that the tape you hand on hand was not that great, as IME tape is a significant step up in SQ over vinyl, if done correctly. The source is always the quality of the recording and the mastering, but it seems folk forget that when it comes to a digital recording, one needs to ask...are the recording folk using gear as 'advanced' as the dCS Varese supposedly is?? Because the SQ one gets is only going to be as great as the weakest link in the chain.

@tunehead Excellent point. When it comes to DAC’s..and maybe digital gear in general, it is an area that seems to evolve at a quicker pace than say...analog, or just about anything else in audio.

How many here would pay the ask for the new dCS Varese DAC combo knowing that in a year it could be ( highly likely) relegated to a good DAC combo, but nowhere near SOTA!

Plus, to get it up to the then new standard, a new module, or whatever, needs to be added...at another large $$$

@daveyf Ja, you are right. I meant to say the very best vinyl pressings that were comparable (albeit differently presented) in audio quality to Varese. Tape is such a unique beast and hard to compare to anything else as the instrument separation on tape is just so danged good. That said, the most noticeable thing I heard on the Varese is it seemed to simplify the complex passages so that your ear can focus on whatever instrument or voice it choses...this is what tape excels at for me. Varese is definitely better at simplifying the music than any other digital I have heard (not heard Wadax, but have heard MSB and other pricey digital systems).

An audio reviewer OVER HYPED a product! No way!

Word on the street is that they are already working on the successor of the Varese. It will consist of 32 chassis. Each chip will be encased and have a separate power supply. I can't wait to see the 16-page advertisement followed by the next 30 pages of review. 

Seems typically that if one has the top dCS stack, they’d likely have top electronics and revealing speakers ~ a highly transparent audio system way above what most can afford.  

@daveyf - just because technology moves on in a newer model doesn’t mean what came before is obsolete- the older tech still beats most lower priced DACs.  Also, the older tech used items still sell at a steep price, but obviously not to the level of new.

If one is afraid of newer tech replacing old, they’ll never be satisfied in high-tech products like computers, digital audio….  We only have 1 choice - buy or not, accompanying with “fear of obsolescence” is an unwise pointless option

@kennyc  'Fear of obsolescence' is something that anyone who dips their toes into the waters of digital high end audio should be very cognizant of. Particularly given the speed in which digital improves and given the price asked of products like the dCS Varese. Today's SOTA in digital reproduction can be tomorrow's boat anchor in very little time. Resulting in a major loss of value compared to other areas of the high end. I think we have all seen this circumstance before, and I can see no reason to see why it would not be specially true with the new dCS Varese DAC. 

Obviously if one has to have the biggest and best at any one time, and couldn't care less about obsolescence, then what you say makes some sense. It's all budget driven, but personally I would never consider a piece like this new DAC at the money asked, regardless of how much $$$ I was worth.YMMV.

Well, the Varese undoubtedly fits well into a system costing probably $1 million and up, but most of us have to rummage around the audio basement, or perhaps the first or second floor, as our systems cost only a small fraction of the price of the Varese. Yet, my new Gungnir 2 was a marked improvement to my system, which when I add a streamer of suitable quality, would be about eight percent of the price of the Varese, which still needs amplification and speakers. Part of the enjoyment is assembling a system that yields the sound quality one seeks at a price one can afford. That is not to slam the Varese, however, as it sets a “mark on the wall” for others to try to emulate at a lower cost, much as research done for NASA and the military ends up in the products we use every day, such as the GPS system and medical advances that came out of wars of the last 80 years. So, I can say “the Varese is really something” and not feel my latest acquisition is destined for a yard sale … or A-gon. With relatively limited means and a few additional interests and responsibilities, I am quite happy with my system. Can it be improved?  Of course, but the law of diminishing returns enters the equation at a relatively low level when compared to the price of the Varese system. So, I can admire but have no need to envy.

I only wish I could go to an audio store and hear these unicorns.i live in a non audio state with low population.but I will have to live vicariously through the reviewers eyes and ears.maybe I could become a reviewer and have the factory send me stuff i could review for 6 months at a time .then I would not have to spend any money.i want to go to the aponexa but my wife is carting me off to get kidnaped out of country.enjoy the search and the music.

It will definitely give you a chance to buy last years model at a greatly reduced price.  Maybe…

I would never buy a product from a company that did that. dCS or MSB? Hmmm. They made it easy for me. 

Are you aware of the history when it comes to MSB? Maybe not a great example in this context.

Anyone outraged by the review of the DCS Varese should read the review of the $11,100 MBL Cadenza in the December 2024 TAS.  There are many fine digital players at many different price levels.  

Anything that cost $250,000 and up from there better damn well move one to tears

I briefly heard the Varese. I didn’t have time for an extended audition unfortunately. But I wasn’t in the store specifically for that purpose either. So, please take my observations with a large grain of salt - they’re in no way conclusive - even to me. 

I found the instrument separation to be better than I’ve heard in any other digital front end by a wide margin. Indeed - it was to the point it actually didn’t seem natural, but disorienting. It pulled apart the music such that I felt like I was back in the studio listening to the separate tracks before mastering the final mix. Remarkable? Yes. Natural? Unsure. 

Detail was likewise exceptional. And the system sounded a bit brighter than I prefer, like all DCS systems have sounded to me. They were using the same speakers I own, but D’Agostino relentless amps (IIRC) and Transparent Opus cables (again - IIRC), gear with which I’m not familiar.

My takeaway was several fold. A huge five box stack to do the job? As joked by @jeffreyw - we’re moving to the realm of ridiculous in how many boxes can be sold. Yes, they achieved an astonishing result, but wow. 

Was it better than my DAC? Yes. And arguably no.  (Though I would likely struggle to find others to support that conclusion). The DAC(s) I own are very good in their own right and offer me nearly as much as I heard with the Varese. Nearly, but with a more natural (to my ears) presentation.

The Varese is out of my budget so I’m not an unbiased view here. But I personally wouldn’t purchase the system even were it in budget. Why?

There’s actually a fair amount of development occurring with Taiko’s new Olympus server and an analogue card (really a DAC plug in module) which takes an entirely different data path/approach between the server and conversion. Early reports suggest this is where state of the art is going. If I understand correctly (and that’s a BIG if), there are inherent advantages to their approach that surprised even the Taiko team.

I’ve yet to hear it and I’m in no rush. But it’s possible that they’re achieving even better results than WADAX and DCS, in a compact system, for less than $100k. Still fantastically expensive, but a fraction the cost of the others without being so incredibly invasive to living space.

For the sake of introduction.  You will want to familiarize yourself with a new product from Master Fidelity, the NADAC D and NADAC C.  A sonic rethinking of digital audio.  https://www.master-fidelity.com/

@daveyf

I’ve had the Vivaldi stack (upgraded to Apex) for over 10 years now, and the Apex upgrade was like getting a brand-new DAC. I’m extremely happy with the sound quality.

When I sold my previous dCS Scarlatti after five years, I got about 80% of what I originally paid for it. dCS services every product they’ve released in the last 30+ years, and their legacy products hold their value remarkably well.
 

Given that the Varese took over five years to develop, I highly doubt dCS will be replacing it anytime soon. The Apex upgrade was a direct result of this development, trickling down to their legacy products.

From my experience with dCS over the years, their products continue to improve significantly through both software and hardware upgrades, ensuring long-term value and performance.

@brite61 I’m pleased that you still like the SQ of your dCS Vivaldi. However, the new dCS Varese is priced at multiples of your Vivaldi, and with the speed that digital advances, it strikes me as a platform that will need upgrading in the not very distant future. I’m sure dCS will offer upgrades for the Varese ( to a point), but at what price?

My main point is this: is it wise to be buying the SOTA digital anything at very high cost, when it might make a lot more sense to buy yesterday’s model...and at a considerable discount, since this can usually be accomplished in very short time?

You may have received 80% of your investment into your Scarlati ( sounds like you were lucky), but I know plenty of folk who bought into the better digital offerings, only to receive 30-40% of their investment after a very short amount of time.

OTOH, if you are one of the folk who has to have the best, and don’t care about the cost ( there are a few folk like this in this hobby, more than most of us realize, perhaps) --- then you are one of the consumers that dCS is interested in.

$250,000. That's a quarter of a million! Should we only decide what to purchase with excess money in the audio world? Wait. Who am I talking to? Who is DCS talking to? If somebody wanted to show me their system and it had a $250,000 digital front end, I think I'd want to walk out the front door. It's a disgusting amount of money to spend on a digital front end. I don't care how good it sounds or how rich you are, if you don't have people in your life who could use some of that money, well, talking about stereos is beside the point. You need a life.  

@audio-b-dog 

That sounds a little judgy. 

No...

It is a judgement. When I go out and buy what I call expensive equipment, I judge myself. I don't have an audio budget, it all comes out of the common fund which includes wife, daughter, grandaughters. In the review, Michael Framer pronounced the quarter-of-a million-dollar wonder as good as analogue. You can buy a good turntable for ten to twenty grand. I guess at some point I see certain price points in audio as just too much. When I was growing up, my mother said, "Eat your beans. People are starving in China." (A very long time ago.) I'm sure that my friends judge me all the time for the "moderate" amount I spend on audio. My new speakers were $18K and I was gulping at that. Sorry for judging, but I do from time to time judge our hobby. 

This seems similar buying a car new or used. Once we buy the car, we usually don’t care about newer models coming out, but rather we are satisfied with the function and use of our purchase because it is doing “exactly” what we expected at the time of purchase.

Products types vary in innovation, from slow (furniture, roof tiles…) to fast including high-tech (software, laptops, smartphones, audio equipment..).

In high-end anything. It’s foolish to purchase anything thinking/hoping that better tech “won’t happen”, and when it does the individual becomes disappointed. Meanwhile, the high-end anything is functioning exactly as it was intended at the time of purchase- it’s doing what we expected it to do to give us satisfaction.

As an example, after long research, both Audiophile1 (A1) and Audiophile2 purchased the same DAC.

A1 simply enjoys the DAC - it’s consistently performing to expectations at the same level of when it was first purchased

A2 is satisfied enjoys it for awhile, then hears news of a better model coming out so A2 becomes dissatisfied. But wait, the news is false so now A2 is back to being satisfied. The manufacturer announced that they are working on a newer/better model, A2 becomes dissatisfied. But due to health reasons, the manufacturer will retire aka no new model, A2 becomes satisfied. Meanwhile, the DAC is performing the same as in day 1. What is changing?

Its better to be A1 without the emotional baggage

Not withstanding the companies behavior, I did have a chance to hear the reviewed setup.  It is an amazing stack.  Unobtanium at anything realistic price wise.  I can't say the performance is anything but beyond next level.  The high end actually got a high end machine.  I was amazed and more than amused by what I heard.  You should go listen to it wherever your Ferraris are sold.  But anyone who's heard high end systems knows this DAC isn't a snake oil review.

@audio-b-dog  Excellent post. I think more folks should have the attitude that you have in regards to high end purchases..of anything. I also think more of us should judge this hobby in the way you state.

@christopherp Can you tell us what the rest of the system consisted of when you heard the new dCS Varese stack..gear, room, music, etc??

I don't mind reviews from time to time about very expensive audio. I think it would be good, however, if the reviewer would at least nod to the readership that probably less than 1% of us will ever be able to afford this. Perhaps the reviewer could have mentioned trickle-down electronics into streamers that at least 10% of us might afford in the future. There were no nods in this review. When I was done with it I felt as though the reviewer was reviewing, from an affordability standard, a new NAD streamer. In other reviews I've read of ridiculously expensive equipment, the reviewers often nod to the super expensive price tag. 

Sometimes when I read about the equipment a reviewer has, including super-expensive substitute equipment, I wonder where they get all their money. Sometimes I wonder if a reviewer has to have a fortune to go into the business of reviewing. If they review $200K speakers, for example, they put a couple hundred thousand in front of the speakers. 

Part of the problem for me is that the $250,000 DCS streamer (if it was a streamer and not just a DAC) pretty much receives the same lauditory adjectives as a $15K streamer. Wide sound stage, great attack, all the normal compliments. 

Part of my bottom line for what I will purchase is if I leave the audition room for a half hour will I know if they've changed out the expensive component with something 1/2 its price or in case of the Varese 1/10 its price. 

In other words, as Bjork says, "Where is the line for you?" My wife would definitely ask me that. Anyway, without some sort of nod to me by the reviewer I feel left out by uber-expensive equipment that is out of the price range of everyone I know, and I live in LA among the "elites." One other problem I have with digital equipment is that it will never sound as good as my "modest" turntable with a decent cartridge.  

davyf, I can't say much, but would refer you to the article.  I'm pretty sure it's all in there.  I'll say it's a very good room to listen in.

audio-b-dog see a bit of logical problem with your way of thinking? What type of scoundrel spends 18K on speakers? So I guess 20K for a pair is right out of the question. You draw the line and let us know. 

And then daveyf comes in and gives him some support. Like feeding the neighborhood stray cat.

18K speakers will seem over the top and offend 99.8 % of people not in the hobby.

A 250K dac will seem over the top and offensive to 99.99 % percent.

The above argument is ridiculous. Get off your soap boxes sell your 18k speakers and feel good about yourself. You don’t get to decide what is acceptable to spend.

@audition__audio   Do tell us what ultra pricey gear you are associated with?

I had a TAS subscription but dropped it  years ago after reading their over the top review of MQA.  I felt it came across as an 8 page paid advertisement.

daveyf

Audiophiles need the Ultra High End. Reason- eventually, the technology trickles down to gear like your Esoteric DV-60 / D-05 DAC combo.

Happy Listening!

My most expensive component are my amps at $ 19K. In my mind the obscenity of a $ 19K purchase is little different than that of a $ 250K purchase. Key to this is that I set these limits for myself and not others. 

Maybe dCS threatened to sue him if the review wasn’t OTT.  They have a history here.  
  I remember a Steve Stone review in TAS about MQA that informed readers that all of our DACs were now obsolete.  I stopped my subscription then and haven’t read an issue since 

@jafant  No question that audiophiles need the ultra high end, only question is do they also need the ultra high prices, along with the large depreciations?

So your concern is economic rather than social. The operative word is not need, but rather want.