The new dCS Varese DAC...it is so good that all others are now relegated to history??
In the current issue of 'The Absolute Sound' magazine, Jacob Heilbrun applies about as much hyperbole on the new dCS Varese DAC stack as I have ever read!!
There are references to the sound of a 'live' piano and other points about the 'quantum leap in SQ' of this product.
Yet, i ask this, how is it possible that the digital recording chain can in fact pick up the many incredible subtleties that Jacob references in his review??
Nonetheless, at the price asked for the new Varese, it had better do your washing, cooking and take out the dog for a walk!
Next year, we will hear how the new dCS Varese is being upgraded, and that the new revisions are more accurate, more resolving, more this...more that, for a large price increase. Pathetic on a number of plains. Thoughts?
$250,000. That’s a quarter of a million! Should we only decide what to purchase with excess money in the audio world? Wait. Who am I talking to? Who is DCS talking to? If somebody wanted to show me their system and it had a $250,000 digital front end, I think I’d want to walk out the front door. It’s a disgusting amount of money to spend on a digital front end. I don’t care how good it sounds or how rich you are, if you don’t have people in your life who could use some of that money, well, talking about stereos is beside the point. You need a life.
It would seem they have a life. Just not the one you approve of.
I have heard their new Varese stack with a direct comparison to their previous model. Yes it sounded better via the Wilson speakers as well it should. That being said, who knows how it sounds to other top tier kits, I will never know.
One thing that occurs to me with regards to the dCS pricing is that one can acquire the new Metaxas And Sins Papillion tape deck, along with a good number of tapes for a price that might be less than the dCS stack. According to JV in the current issue of The Absolute Sound, this tape deck is the best source component he has heard. I would suspect that the tape player would see off the new dCS Varese in all areas.
Yes, I’m sure people who know NOTHING about DCS aside from this ONE story are people who react off the top of their head and come up with conclusions before knowing all the facts. And the fact that DCS has been in business for 40 years and never had a kerfluffle before now means nothing to them. They’re inclined to mob mentality. By that point, facts mean nothing.
DCS products are excellent, and always have been. I am no fan of their pricing, but I do see them as a luxury brand. Goldmund is a luxury brand, too, only they actually say that they are.
What’s interesting is that even the luxury audio brands were not this expensive 30 years ago. After 2000, the pricing of speakers and electronics seemed to get crazy. Ah, well... And I’m sure the more expensive a component, the more rabid some posters become. It’s not logical. Not in the least.
Entertaining discussion. I would love to hear this latest dCS front end especially in my system at home. But that’s unlikely to happen.
dCS is one of the polarizing brands that attract a lot of haters similar to the crowd hating on Wilson Audio, Boulder, etc. mostly those who never owned or even heard this gear and can’t afford it…typical in any hobby…but have an opinion on how bad it sounds and how it’s not worth it.
This is a gorgeous stack and I am sure it’s top notch engineering and build quality.
Given Jacob’s extremely good hearing, I am sure that the DCS is all its cracked up to be. But, as with any company reaching for the stars, they will make some new discovery and implement it.
Why all the snark? I can’t afford this particular stack, either, but I don’t begrudge those who can. Isn’t the goal (for some of us) to reproduce a credible illusion of the live experience (if there even was one)? I’m not certain I’d buy a 254k stack even if I could (again) afford it, just because I’d rather use that on a first class trip to Thailand and five or six other countries!
But I’d buy a DCS Bartok Apex for the low, low price of only...7k !! DCS is one of the really great digital products on the market. There are others.
OP dCS Varese DAC, all others are now relegated to history?
No joke please. I still hear many layers of veils from every dCSs. My SACD player (1/130 price) in my humble system sounds cleaner and more musical. Alex/Wavetouch audio
I was listening to a great system with a dCS Vivaldi a few days ago. No one could possibly say it sounded bad, or was not very high end and incredibly detailed... really impressive. But... not natural or compellingly musical.
+1. I used to own dcs gear. Gave them all up for the same reason and never looked back. I would not advise putting them in any system even if you can afford them.
dCS certainly makes very nice gear, but in my experience it always sounds a little bit "artificial" compared to some of the other top brands. I can respect it, even appreciate it for what it is, but in the end I don't quite love to listen to it. So even if I could afford this new Varese stuff, I would not use it in my own system. The same applies to the dCS models I can afford such as the Bartok, Lina, and Rossini.
I’m sure it advances the art of sound, as the review concludes. It’s the same as with newer, more advanced car models; they don’t negate the cars already out there. But they are an advance in driving. And products simply co-exist.
DCS has always had very expensive digital, even back in 1996. So this is not a surprise to me. But apparently it is to others. it’s not something I would buy, but if it sounds magnificent, I can understand somebody showing out for it. No skin off my my nose - or my wallet.
The dCS Varese is reviewed in the current issue of Stereophile by Jason Victor Serinus. His Varese combo comes in at over $300k. I have not read the review yet, but will be looking forward to the ongoing hyperbole.
Well I would completely ignore any discussion of anything audio related on ASR, just as an example.
I never put much stock in reviewers or reviews. Perhaps a bit less these days than back in...
Like you, b-dog, I can get any digital rig regardless of price equal my analog front end. I currently use a $ 1K Simaudio for digital with no plans in the near future to upgrade.
rikkipuu struck a nerve with me and perhaps put his finger on what bothered me about the Varese review. It was given many more pages than any other review I can remember. So many pages for perhaps a handful of readers who could consider purchasing the Varese. Not a mention that the price was more than any reviews I've read in their pages except for huge speakers.
It had a kind of cringy feeling to me. There didn't seem to be any normal human responses. Not even the oft-ending line that the reviewer would buy the equipment if he could afford it. I think it did strike me as an add and that was partly why I was offended.
Basically, I have some passing interest in very expensive equipment, but I'd rather read a review of something I could possibly buy some day. I also believe that reviewers I read twenty or thirty years ago talked about equipment a good portion of the audiophile community might be able to purchase. Now, these same reviewers go to their garage and pull out a pair of $100,000 amps, etc. Where have they gotten all this money? Certainly not writing for Stereophile or Absolute Sound.
Although the question of $ is subjective, and everybody is in a different bracket, for me $250,000 for a digital front end seems egregious. Especially when I read in forums how the difference between expensive and inexpensive DACs had diminished. Just my humble reaction.
@jafant No question that audiophiles need the ultra high end, only question is do they also need the ultra high prices, along with the large depreciations?
Maybe dCS threatened to sue him if the review wasn’t OTT. They have a history here.
I remember a Steve Stone review in TAS about MQA that informed readers that all of our DACs were now obsolete. I stopped my subscription then and haven’t read an issue since
My most expensive component are my amps at $ 19K. In my mind the obscenity of a $ 19K purchase is little different than that of a $ 250K purchase. Key to this is that I set these limits for myself and not others.
I had a TAS subscription but dropped it years ago after reading their over the top review of MQA. I felt it came across as an 8 page paid advertisement.
18K speakers will seem over the top and offend 99.8 % of people not in the hobby.
A 250K dac will seem over the top and offensive to 99.99 % percent.
The above argument is ridiculous. Get off your soap boxes sell your 18k speakers and feel good about yourself. You don’t get to decide what is acceptable to spend.
audio-b-dog see a bit of logical problem with your way of thinking? What type of scoundrel spends 18K on speakers? So I guess 20K for a pair is right out of the question. You draw the line and let us know.
And then daveyf comes in and gives him some support. Like feeding the neighborhood stray cat.
I don't mind reviews from time to time about very expensive audio. I think it would be good, however, if the reviewer would at least nod to the readership that probably less than 1% of us will ever be able to afford this. Perhaps the reviewer could have mentioned trickle-down electronics into streamers that at least 10% of us might afford in the future. There were no nods in this review. When I was done with it I felt as though the reviewer was reviewing, from an affordability standard, a new NAD streamer. In other reviews I've read of ridiculously expensive equipment, the reviewers often nod to the super expensive price tag.
Sometimes when I read about the equipment a reviewer has, including super-expensive substitute equipment, I wonder where they get all their money. Sometimes I wonder if a reviewer has to have a fortune to go into the business of reviewing. If they review $200K speakers, for example, they put a couple hundred thousand in front of the speakers.
Part of the problem for me is that the $250,000 DCS streamer (if it was a streamer and not just a DAC) pretty much receives the same lauditory adjectives as a $15K streamer. Wide sound stage, great attack, all the normal compliments.
Part of my bottom line for what I will purchase is if I leave the audition room for a half hour will I know if they've changed out the expensive component with something 1/2 its price or in case of the Varese 1/10 its price.
In other words, as Bjork says, "Where is the line for you?" My wife would definitely ask me that. Anyway, without some sort of nod to me by the reviewer I feel left out by uber-expensive equipment that is out of the price range of everyone I know, and I live in LA among the "elites." One other problem I have with digital equipment is that it will never sound as good as my "modest" turntable with a decent cartridge.
@audio-b-dog Excellent post. I think more folks should have the attitude that you have in regards to high end purchases..of anything. I also think more of us should judge this hobby in the way you state.
Not withstanding the companies behavior, I did have a chance to hear the reviewed setup. It is an amazing stack. Unobtanium at anything realistic price wise. I can't say the performance is anything but beyond next level. The high end actually got a high end machine. I was amazed and more than amused by what I heard. You should go listen to it wherever your Ferraris are sold. But anyone who's heard high end systems knows this DAC isn't a snake oil review.
This seems similar buying a car new or used. Once we buy the car, we usually don’t care about newer models coming out, but rather we are satisfied with the function and use of our purchase because it is doing “exactly” what we expected at the time of purchase.
Products types vary in innovation, from slow (furniture, roof tiles…) to fast including high-tech (software, laptops, smartphones, audio equipment..).
In high-end anything. It’s foolish to purchase anything thinking/hoping that better tech “won’t happen”, and when it does the individual becomes disappointed. Meanwhile, the high-end anything is functioning exactly as it was intended at the time of purchase- it’s doing what we expected it to do to give us satisfaction.
As an example, after long research, both Audiophile1 (A1) and Audiophile2 purchased the same DAC.
A1 simply enjoys the DAC - it’s consistently performing to expectations at the same level of when it was first purchased
A2 is satisfied enjoys it for awhile, then hears news of a better model coming out so A2 becomes dissatisfied. But wait, the news is false so now A2 is back to being satisfied. The manufacturer announced that they are working on a newer/better model, A2 becomes dissatisfied. But due to health reasons, the manufacturer will retire aka no new model, A2 becomes satisfied. Meanwhile, the DAC is performing the same as in day 1. What is changing?
It is a judgement. When I go out and buy what I call expensive equipment, I judge myself. I don't have an audio budget, it all comes out of the common fund which includes wife, daughter, grandaughters. In the review, Michael Framer pronounced the quarter-of-a million-dollar wonder as good as analogue. You can buy a good turntable for ten to twenty grand. I guess at some point I see certain price points in audio as just too much. When I was growing up, my mother said, "Eat your beans. People are starving in China." (A very long time ago.) I'm sure that my friends judge me all the time for the "moderate" amount I spend on audio. My new speakers were $18K and I was gulping at that. Sorry for judging, but I do from time to time judge our hobby.
$250,000. That's a quarter of a million! Should we only decide what to purchase with excess money in the audio world? Wait. Who am I talking to? Who is DCS talking to? If somebody wanted to show me their system and it had a $250,000 digital front end, I think I'd want to walk out the front door. It's a disgusting amount of money to spend on a digital front end. I don't care how good it sounds or how rich you are, if you don't have people in your life who could use some of that money, well, talking about stereos is beside the point. You need a life.
@brite61 I’m pleased that you still like the SQ of your dCS Vivaldi. However, the new dCS Varese is priced at multiples of your Vivaldi, and with the speed that digital advances, it strikes me as a platform that will need upgrading in the not very distant future. I’m sure dCS will offer upgrades for the Varese ( to a point), but at what price?
My main point is this: is it wise to be buying the SOTA digital anything at very high cost, when it might make a lot more sense to buy yesterday’s model...and at a considerable discount, since this can usually be accomplished in very short time?
You may have received 80% of your investment into your Scarlati ( sounds like you were lucky), but I know plenty of folk who bought into the better digital offerings, only to receive 30-40% of their investment after a very short amount of time.
OTOH, if you are one of the folk who has to have the best, and don’t care about the cost ( there are a few folk like this in this hobby, more than most of us realize, perhaps) --- then you are one of the consumers that dCS is interested in.
I’ve had the Vivaldi stack (upgraded to Apex) for over 10 years now, and the Apex upgrade was like getting a brand-new DAC. I’m extremely happy with the sound quality.
When I sold my previous dCS Scarlatti after five years, I got about 80% of what I originally paid for it. dCS services every product they’ve released in the last 30+ years, and their legacy products hold their value remarkably well.
Given that the Varese took over five years to develop, I highly doubt dCS will be replacing it anytime soon. The Apex upgrade was a direct result of this development, trickling down to their legacy products.
From my experience with dCS over the years, their products continue to improve significantly through both software and hardware upgrades, ensuring long-term value and performance.
For the sake of introduction. You will want to familiarize yourself with a new product from Master Fidelity, the NADAC D and NADAC C. A sonic rethinking of digital audio. https://www.master-fidelity.com/
I briefly heard the Varese. I didn’t have time for an extended audition unfortunately. But I wasn’t in the store specifically for that purpose either. So, please take my observations with a large grain of salt - they’re in no way conclusive - even to me.
I found the instrument separation to be better than I’ve heard in any other digital front end by a wide margin. Indeed - it was to the point it actually didn’t seem natural, but disorienting. It pulled apart the music such that I felt like I was back in the studio listening to the separate tracks before mastering the final mix. Remarkable? Yes. Natural? Unsure.
Detail was likewise exceptional. And the system sounded a bit brighter than I prefer, like all DCS systems have sounded to me. They were using the same speakers I own, but D’Agostino relentless amps (IIRC) and Transparent Opus cables (again - IIRC), gear with which I’m not familiar.
My takeaway was several fold. A huge five box stack to do the job? As joked by @jeffreyw- we’re moving to the realm of ridiculous in how many boxes can be sold. Yes, they achieved an astonishing result, but wow.
Was it better than my DAC? Yes. And arguably no. (Though I would likely struggle to find others to support that conclusion). The DAC(s) I own are very good in their own right and offer me nearly as much as I heard with the Varese. Nearly, but with a more natural (to my ears) presentation.
The Varese is out of my budget so I’m not an unbiased view here. But I personally wouldn’t purchase the system even were it in budget. Why?
There’s actually a fair amount of development occurring with Taiko’s new Olympus server and an analogue card (really a DAC plug in module) which takes an entirely different data path/approach between the server and conversion. Early reports suggest this is where state of the art is going. If I understand correctly (and that’s a BIG if), there are inherent advantages to their approach that surprised even the Taiko team.
I’ve yet to hear it and I’m in no rush. But it’s possible that they’re achieving even better results than WADAX and DCS, in a compact system, for less than $100k. Still fantastically expensive, but a fraction the cost of the others without being so incredibly invasive to living space.
Anyone outraged by the review of the DCS Varese should read the review of the $11,100 MBL Cadenza in the December 2024 TAS. There are many fine digital players at many different price levels.
I only wish I could go to an audio store and hear these unicorns.i live in a non audio state with low population.but I will have to live vicariously through the reviewers eyes and ears.maybe I could become a reviewer and have the factory send me stuff i could review for 6 months at a time .then I would not have to spend any money.i want to go to the aponexa but my wife is carting me off to get kidnaped out of country.enjoy the search and the music.
Well, the Varese undoubtedly fits well into a system costing probably $1 million and up, but most of us have to rummage around the audio basement, or perhaps the first or second floor, as our systems cost only a small fraction of the price of the Varese. Yet, my new Gungnir 2 was a marked improvement to my system, which when I add a streamer of suitable quality, would be about eight percent of the price of the Varese, which still needs amplification and speakers. Part of the enjoyment is assembling a system that yields the sound quality one seeks at a price one can afford. That is not to slam the Varese, however, as it sets a “mark on the wall” for others to try to emulate at a lower cost, much as research done for NASA and the military ends up in the products we use every day, such as the GPS system and medical advances that came out of wars of the last 80 years. So, I can say “the Varese is really something” and not feel my latest acquisition is destined for a yard sale … or A-gon. With relatively limited means and a few additional interests and responsibilities, I am quite happy with my system. Can it be improved? Of course, but the law of diminishing returns enters the equation at a relatively low level when compared to the price of the Varese system. So, I can admire but have no need to envy.
@kennyc 'Fear of obsolescence' is something that anyone who dips their toes into the waters of digital high end audio should be very cognizant of. Particularly given the speed in which digital improves and given the price asked of products like the dCS Varese. Today's SOTA in digital reproduction can be tomorrow's boat anchor in very little time. Resulting in a major loss of value compared to other areas of the high end. I think we have all seen this circumstance before, and I can see no reason to see why it would not be specially true with the new dCS Varese DAC.
Obviously if one has to have the biggest and best at any one time, and couldn't care less about obsolescence, then what you say makes some sense. It's all budget driven, but personally I would never consider a piece like this new DAC at the money asked, regardless of how much $$$ I was worth.YMMV.
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