nac722,
"The best cables come from pre-1980’s Kirby vacuums. I buy them at garage sales when the person says they are broken. If they want $40 I offer them $25 (just want the cable). These things work the best. Better than the $1 a foot stuff and better than the $10,000 cables
+1 for creativity. They generally smell bad though. |
havocman,
There has been an active thread about the Silversmith cables here for months now. |
If you are offended by high priced cables, don't buy them. If you are offended by people buying high priced audio cables, mind your own business. If you are offended because people with normal hearing hear things you don't, get yourself another hobby. |
Like I said-- I've been there and done that with cables. The argument is not whether or not all wire sounds the same-- it does not-- it's about quality of build and materials-- the rest is just chocolate, strawberry or vanilla (and all the other flavors). There are huge scams going on with stupid pricing and nothing to back it up with except ones own feelings-- worth it or not. So be it. It's not academic BTW, it's experiential. But obscene profit margins built on BS claims is not hunky dory despite whatever you want to tell yourself. Legal isn't always ethical or right. |
Do different wires sound different? Sure. The "WHY" is a longer answer. First: the same set of wires may sound different on a different amp. That's the big clue!
Second: Amp designers fall into two broad categories. There are the "My Amp Is Perfect" school; and the other is the "No Speaker Is Perfect, I'll Help You Out" school.
The first group is sure their design is the finest available. If it doesn't sound good, it's somebody else's fault. The connections and the speakers are your problem, not the amp builder's.
The second group wants to try to make the speaker's movements perfectly match what comes into their amp's inputs. This means they have to find out what the speaker is actually doing. They monitor the output signal and compare it to the signal coming into the amp.
You have probably heard of cheap intercom systems where you talk into the same speaker that the other person's voice comes out of. A speaker and a microphone have a lot in common. Your speaker "hears" everything that goes on in the room. That means that when your speaker is not being asked to do anything, and something makes a sound in the room, a signal appears at it's terminals. It's a very small signal, but it's there. So if your speaker moves when it's not being driven, it actually generates a signal matching whatever sound is in the room. It is also true that when a speaker IS being driven, but its motion in NOT a pattern that matches its driving signal - such as when a woofer's inertia cause it to accelerate slowly or its inertia carries it farther than the input signal requires, it generates a signal representing the error. We'll call it the error signal.
A clever amp designer can use that error signal to cause the amp to produce an equal and opposite signal to cancel out the unwanted motions of the speaker. BUT the error signal has to make it back to the amplifier in good shape. Does it have to go backwards through the crossover network? Have you seen how elaborate some crossovers are? Some crossovers have resistors in them because they are driving speakers of different efficiency. That will easily distort the accuracy of the error signal! Of course, it has to get through the wire that connects the amp to the speaker without further alteration. Quite an elaborate journey, in many cases.
Have you read reviews of simple, single driver speakers? Or speakers using a single capacitor and a single inductor in the crossover? Reviewers talk about clarity, transparency, and a lifelike quality to the sound. Why? Because the amp could help out in correcting the speakers mistakes! One amp, two wires, one driver - that's all! That's why systems with electronic crossovers feeding one amp per driver can sound so good. That's why shorter wires are better than long ones.
If an amp doesn't seem to care what speaker wires it feeds; it's because it's not "listening." Designers of the first school think that it's not their job to worry about the loudspeaker's performance. Those other guys are speaker people. He is an amp designer and that's that. If the speaker designers do their job right, his amp will make them sound their best. But, wouldn't it be nice if they cooperated - the speakers and the amp? But wait! OOOPS! Perhaps, if the crossover's complexities and the wire's capacitance and inductance altered the error signal, things might not go so well and the error signal might not arrive showing the true state of the error, so the correction the amp does is itself erroneous and as it goes pack to the speaker it gets corrupted again and an even less accurate error signal goes back to the amp - things could get worse. A lot worse!
So, audiophile A lends his "Simply Superior" speaker wires to his pal, audiophile B who tries them out and says, "These cables sound terrible on my system!" an argument may develop. They may not notice that they use different integrated/power amps, not to mention different speakers, in their systems. So now you know why there are so many discussions about speaker cables, many from people who are absolutely sure they are correct. Rather sad really; they just lack experience. They may have married the first person they kissed. They are certainly unaware of what is involved in the process of delivering electrons to speaker coils/activating elements in the real world. As a friend of mine once told me, "Keep your mind and you bowels open. That's the secret of a good life." Happy Listening! |
So, bring it on -- We on the professional side of things (I am a
mastering engineer) prefer components that deliver what's there. I have
always used 10 gauge oxygen-free stranded cable of good manufacture,
kept to reasonable lengths.
There are no absolutes. We live in a
relative world. Relatively speaking, if my clients like the way their
music sounds out there, I am listening to the best possible system. My
clients have come back again and again.
Best regards to all. Yes, we are all well aware the few audiophile quality recordings are swamped by people like you churning out dreck. Enjoy your profits. Maybe put some of it back into improved quality? Just a thought. |
“…high purity copper speaker wire…”
I prefer my speaker wire dirty, like my martinis. |
So, bring it on -- We on the professional side of things (I am a mastering engineer) prefer components that deliver what's there. I have always used 10 gauge oxygen-free stranded cable of good manufacture, kept to reasonable lengths.
There are no absolutes. We live in a relative world. Relatively speaking, if my clients like the way their music sounds out there, I am listening to the best possible system. My clients have come back again and again.
Best regards to all.
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That sounds nothing like me. Companies don't charge, they ask. We decide to pay, or not. The transaction being between two freely consenting traders there is nothing stupid about it. Each thinks they got a good deal- or there would be no deal in the first place! It is only the academic pretending to stand outside the whole thing while in reality holding himself morally superior to it all where stupidity comes in.
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Better quality cable will usually sound better than the cheap stuff-- BUT-- the claims made by many of the companies that sell the inexplicably expensive stuff are, IMO, after years and years of listening to different kinds of quality speaker cable, without any merit.
Here's what's true; at a certain level of materials and build quality spending more money for any cable is not going to guarantee that you get any better sound out of your system. What you will get are different flavor notes-- like from one Zinfandel wine to the next-- usually small but sometimes very important differences. You have to live with any new or different cables for a while to really get a true (as opposed to a placebo) sense of the changes those cables have made to your system.
Not to sound to MillerCarbony-- but companies that charge stupid money for their cables are not really selling cables at all. |
i agree w miller on this
when folks say ’prove it’ to something they don’t accept, it is naive and self centered and utlimately unproductive
folks who believe something believe it, they have come to accept that notion in their minds, in their own way
whether it is actually true or not, it is not their burden to prove it to someone else, although they may choose to share their rationale ... if any of us really want to know, we should learn, experiment, run honest comparisons to convince ourselves... and if that is too hard, well too bad -- still, no one is obligated to prove anything to you...
the spirit of this board is to share ideas, beliefs, discuss, debate -- we all take it as input, and then use our intellect, training, resources and wits to discern what we believe to be true -- and if something is important enough, we can choose to make an effort to find out and convince ourselves
too many people are too self centered, too entitled, too spoiled... you type a few words on this board about something, read something you don’t agree with... no one owes you anything here, much less 'proof' ... |
Ferrari’s….why are the hype over expensive cars. I’ve driven all kinds of cars and I’m sitting here in my Fiat going “this thing drives just fine…” |
@cleeds Thanks for posting that paper!
I myself have heard differences. But for those who tell me it’s snake oil, I had a thought. If I believe them and listen again and then -- voila! -- hear no differences, isn’t it in my self-interest to cut my losses and sell my cables? That seems like the most rational thing to do. So, when I listen again and hear differences, it must be that I’m hearing the differences *despite* my self-interest. That is, it’s objectively there.
Oh, and here’s one more argument from self-interest: if I prefer to think they make a difference, how irrational is this compared to literally any other purchase that gives me pleasure? Anyone who has paid a 3000% markup on a soda at a fast food place has used exactly this reasoning. It’s not irrational. It’s preference-satisfaction. |
daleberlin“Yes cables can sound incredibly different.” Prove it. No one here owes you any proof. The documentation you seek is actually abundant, but you’ll have to work to find and digest it. Here’s one especially thorough study. Very detailed. All variables controlled. "This work shows that two system configurations differing only by the interconnect pathway are audibly discernable, even by average listeners with no special experience in music or audio ... electrical measurements conducted here indicate that noise levels may be one determining factor of sonic performance. The measurements also show that characteristics such as resistance and frequency response, that naïve consumers may focus on, are irrelevant for distinguishing HEA interconnect cables. " Still, I think the best thing to do is listen and decide for yourself. |
To who? Those of us who know have nothing to prove. The onus is not on us to teach, but on you to learn.
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“Yes cables can sound incredibly different.” Prove it.
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Yes cables can sound incredibly different. This is good to experiment with when you feel that you have tweaked your system to a level you can appreciate. Ah, believe it or not lamp chord sounds good with vintage McIntosh tube amp driving Altec Voice of the Theaters. Just know that for the most part $$$$ cables are not going to bring a $$ system to the next level. You can DIY some serious cables and save $$$ Youtube has some very good examples |
It’s voodoo audio that prays on the weaknesses of those who simply want to believe that something so expensive must be effective, yes? |
@tzh21y more important than what speaker cables you use are what speakers you use, how they are set up for best playback, and how the room is treated if, and where needed. After those have been optimized, then worry about speaker cables IF you find the sound lacking. If you love the sound, stay with whatever speaker cable you are using. If you stop loving the sound, then change speaker cable, or maybe something else. |
It's all about system synergy, who each and every component in a system, including every cable, interacts and complements each other. A cable can sound fantastic in one system, but not as good as another. That is why you should only deal with companies that allow no-hassle, no restock fee returns if you aren't satisfied. And get them broken in before the return period is over!! |
“I think I am hearing things on my records I never heard before and better balance of sound.”
Don’t believe the hype…it’s all relative. Sounds like you’re happy with the basic cables in your system. Try other cables as you may or stick with you’ve got, at the end of the day; it’s your system, ears and money! |
Really good (highly accurate/resolving etc.) cables will NOT sound great in a mediocre or average system. In fact they'll likely make the system sound worse because they will work to expose the weaknesses of the system. The audio system, of which the room is a part, must be relatively matched. Sometimes dropping in a single, significant upgrade component will deteriorate the sound when the manic audiophile was really looking forward to the breathtaking improvement. Then, many many thousands of dollars later after said manic person has gone through rounds of upgrading the other components, the sound will have finally noticably improved. Serious drugs may be required for the breathtaking reaction. |
The best cables come from pre-1980’s Kirby vacuums. I buy them at garage sales when the person says they are broken. If they want $40 I offer them $25 (just want the cable). These things work the best. Better than the $1 a foot stuff and better than the $10,000 cables.
I truly enjoy when people say they hear stuff they never heard before. Nor did the artist or engineer. Have you ever seen the crap at old studios and the garbage cables they used. What you are hearing is something the artist DIDNT want you to hear because they would have included back in 1972. For you guys over 60 what you are hearing with your awesome cables is tinnitus. Go get your hearing checked, your ability to hear highs has gone down the toilet and is declining every year. |
I wear hearing aids and I don't much care whether somebody on the internet thinks I should be allowed to be an audiophile or not. |
focker39 ... If speaker cables make a
huge difference, and there is a range of cable for each brand, why is it
I can’t find a dealer that will take the time to run multiple A/B
comparisons within the line they carry ... Perhaps you are at the wrong dealer. There's always the Cable Company lending library if you truly can't gain the cooperation of a good dealer.
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No more speaker cable dilemma’s for me, 😂
Moved to Grimm active speakers and sqm |
I once was lost but now am found, was deaf but now fondue. |
It's a valid question. I have had Straight Wire Crescendo speaker cables(and interconnects) since 2009 and they are very good. But I've been contemplating an upgrade.
It took me a long while to sift through all the different speaker cables and their claims and reviews and I still couldn't make a decision.
Then I started looking into Townshend's F-1 Fractals as I was buying many of their vibration isolation products.
The reviews I read about the F-1's were on the side of revelatory and I was very interested in how they treat the copper wires with the Fractal technology. It's a different type of copper wires in a way.
In the end, I bought a pair of the F-1 speaker cables and even their F-1 interconnects to replace my Crescendo interconnects to keep the same loom. I should be receiving all the isolation podiums etc and Fractal in a couple of weeks.
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focker you make too much sense for this forum. |
So here is the question I have been pondering. If speaker cables make a huge difference, and there is a range of cable for each brand, why is it I can’t find a dealer that will take the time to run multiple A/B comparisons within the line they carry. It’s like buying a car before you even test drive it. Just taking the dealers word. I would think they would sell far more high end speaker cable if they had a cabinet of demo model cables for all the wire lines they carried. This way one could listen to the full array and make a good decision. |
Lot's of good inexpensive speaker cables out there. That said, I definitely heard improvements when I recently moved from my Acoustic Zen Satori to my current cable, a Nordost Tyre 2. IMHO need a pretty high resolution system and a good room to parse these kinds of things out. Most of the differences I experienced with this last change were somewhat subtle. Nothing night and day but I haven't tried lamp cord or 14 guage romex or anything like that so I can't compare my current set up to something quite that bare bones. Another issue here is with the listener and how trained their ear is. I have been playing music for 50 years and have classical training. It really does help me unravel the music and I believe makes me more sensitive to nuance. In the end, whatever makes you happy. If you hear a difference no one can argue with you, if you don't hear a difference, no one can argue with you. No one can make you hear what they hear and the fact that you don't have the same experience doesn't invalidate their experience. |
The only way you will ever know is if you try it out for yourself. The cable company offers a trial plan. The reason why I invest in cables, is to attempt to get the best sound replication possible. I accept the fact that I am not a sound engineer . I know what I like regardless of price. The more expensive the cable, the more due diligence I do - which for me can take years. After careful consideration, if I am able I will make the investment - in what translates to my happiness which to me is priceless. A portion of that investment goes towards peace of mind, Accountability/ trust in the company producing the cables. Almost all of my purchases have been on the Used Market. This said - I have witnessed first hand those who believe that they know more than the companies who design and manufacture cables (because they took an engineering course in college 5,10,25 years ago). -
In EVERY case it never ended well. GREAT Power Cables, not a fan of the Speaker/Interconnect cables http://www.stage3concepts.com/GREAT Power Cables, Speaker/Interconnects too much $$$$$$$ https://highfidelitycables.com/collections/power-cables/products/professional-series-1I use for Speaker/Interconnects - Best cable investment I made thus far https://www.tonarm.ch/en/products/accessoiresI am eager to try when I am able https://silversmithaudio.com/fidelium-cables/I use for Super Tweeter all Silver Cables very happy http://www.tempoelectric.com/cables.htm |
WHY the same discussion over and over again?? Non believers should try for them selves. Believers/ experienced listeners already know! Nothing to discuss …waste of time. Better listen to music!
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Suppose I place my monobloc power amps immediately behind the speakers and turn them around and locate with adjustable stands so the output terminals are immediately adjacent to the input terminals on the speakers.
I then weld the amp terminals directly to the speaker terminals, having first disconnected them internally in the amps and speakers to avoid damage from welding heat and current.
I am avoiding any sound deterioration that may be caused by wires and also saving $0000s or possibly $00000s if I am really hooked on wires.
Some say the speaker needs to see some resistance and capacitance but they are probably speaker wire sellers. |
oldhvymec "$17,000 cables vs $27000" This is a perfect example of someone who is not happy with his system, and thinks that an extra $10,000 for wires might cure it. I am sorry, but if you guys want to spend a small fortune on speaker wire, go ahead, but when you start changing without doing some serious AB testing, you are simply proving that a sucker is born every minute, If anyone thinks there is, or worse "Might be" a lot of, o r worse a little, difference between $500 cable and $10,000 plus cables, ask your self why you are so obsessed with the equipment, rather than the music.
Maybe I should do a survey: Let's compare the ability to play a musical instrument well with whether people need to continually upgrade their cables or equipment. My hypothesis in an inverse relationship. I played a trumpet for 20 plus years. There were certainly better trumpets, but mine, which was sold from the 1930's through the1960's, was certainly more capable than me. I could have bought one after the other, but lessons worked quite well.
There is a lot of obsession with toys. I really like my autocross suspended and tired Supercharged S2000 for two reasons: It is 75O pounds lighter than a Boxter or Corvette, and drives best when screaming to its heart's content, like a 600cc or 750 cc sport bike. Would I try a different supercharger based on the opinion of bloggers, for maybe a half percent horsepower gain? No! AND: If I had $17,000 speaker wire and felt it needed to be upgraded, I whould see professional help... and I do not mean from a commissioned sales person, who is the key to continuing this obsession. I do not need his approval, no matter how much he owes on his credit cards.
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Just think if you paid $1 a foot how much more you would hear |
@georgehoffmann60 +1 for Peter at the CableCompany Agree. A great option for new folks who are curious and wanting to demo first. Its not free. However, If I had to do it all over again, I'd start with 2-3 pairs of loaner cables from CableCo and skip all the buy & try & resale steps in between. Less cost, huge time saving. They have a decent knowledge base built up over decades of customer feedback, trials, documented. |
@ebm Because its fun to spend big bucks on speaker cable. hahaha that is the best answer of the week! love it! almost as much fun as setting benjamins on fire... |
An German king with empty treasury ordered by 10 German
Alhemist to turn lead of which (+ coal) Germany was/is rich into
gold. After 10 years all of them were discharged, They changed
their name in metallurgist and become succseful in West and
East . Alas turning lead into gold never happened but well
turning copper into gold. Nordost charge for their copper wire
more than the pure gold cost.
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+1 for Peter at the CableCompany |
Because its fun to spend big bucks on speaker cable. |
Although you could make a case that difference may not be better, but if everything is based on personal preference then the human race would not have come this far. We may not know which is better but you would know it when you hear it.
It's like looking at a woman and know that she is good looking, but there is no agree upon rule that can tell one over the other.
In that sense, I am with Plato on this one. |
In the end buy a system that fits your budget and enjoy the music. |
"No we work and earn our own money. And how we choose to spend it is none of your business comrade."
Thank You pauly. Well said. |
With so many words used to describe the effects and differences between cables why is it that the newcomer is unlikely to ever read that a $1000 cable remains sonically indistinguishable from a pair of twisted coat hangers connecting amp to speakers? Because critical listening is learned and developed over time. Some are more capable on developing their ability to perceive than others. The seasoned art critic is more capable than the novice art critic. The seasoned driver is more capable than the novice driver. The seasoned doctor is more capable than the intern. Somehow you cannot figure the same counts for audiophiles? Why is it also that despite the enormous price differences between various cables that no cable has EVER been claimed to offer ANY sonic superiority? The difference in musical performance of cables in audio have been well known and written about for decades. Suggestion and inference can and do go a long way. ... but deafness will always take one nowhere. Money doesn’t grow on trees No we work and earn our own money. And how we choose to spend it is none of your business comrade. |
@mahlman,
"If you could toss a vibrant word salad with the same ingredients and taste qualities as the plebian described one, and you could convince people to spend 100 times more for the privilege of digesting your words, why not. There are tons of products and people who buy on hype but would run like scared chickens if a true blind test was available. It is a sort of religious cult where the secret keys to the audio kingdom are possessed by oracular golden ear pontiffs who disdain the idea of blind tests because mere science and physics can't hear what the "educated golden ear" can. Solipsism."
Well put. You sure rustled a few financially invested feathers.
With so many words used to describe the effects and differences between cables why is it that the newcomer is unlikely to ever read that a $1000 cable remains sonically indistinguishable from a pair of twisted coat hangers connecting amp to speakers?
Why is it also that despite the enormous price differences between various cables that no cable has EVER been claimed to offer ANY sonic superiority?
Suggestion and inference can and do go a long way.
Something worth thinking about before investing in anything more costly than decent gauge copper cable.
Money doesn't grow on trees.
You need banks to print and loan it to governments at eye watering interest rates first. |
OK - so far - No one has stated what contributes to a good cable So if anyone is interested - here is the "Coles Notes" version of what to consider WRT cables... First the metallurgy... - UP-OCC silver will achieve the fastest and most detailed sound
- Next is UP-OCC copper
- Five nines silver
- then OFC copper
- then everything else
Solid wires will always outperform stranded wires Plated and alloy wires tend to degrade the performance of the" base" material of that wire - which to some peoples ears sound "smoother" or less articulate Then the insulations used on the wires - Air will provide the most clarity - it is hard to achieve but the closest you can get is bare copper inside a larger teflon tube
- Cotton is next
- then Foamed Teflon - like AirLok from VH Audio
- then Teflon
- finally anything else - PVC, rubber etc
Finally - Cable geometry - Helix (like anticables interconnects)
- ribbon (i.e. like Nordost)
- Complex geometries (i.e. like Cardas)
- braided
So a good cable will "generally" adopt an approach using the higher numbers from each of the sections above in some manner There are some cables that adopt the "weird science" approach, such as magnets, batteries and liquid cables, but they are highly specialized Regards - Steve |
Put on your glasses, now do you see it.. Prove?
Why does anybody have to prove anything to anybody. That's right they DON'T!
Why cast pearls before swines? You need proof, good for you.
Prove it yourself and post your experience.
People demanding proof..
Ask a better question and you just MIGHT get a better answer.
Quality questions = quality answers LESS the fancy attempt to show one's super duper intellect, with SALTY soup and not even a decent word salad.
Time to look in on the chickens.. Skunk is trying to get in the hen house, come on dog.. |
Nice answer about that there cosmic rays. Unfortunately nothing to do with the question I asked you.
Now back to my question. How do you “scientifically” prove you see a light in the sky when I don’t?
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""
Ok genius, you see a light in the sky, I don’t. Prove to me “scientifically” you’ve seen it.
" Did some work years ago for the Astrophysics Lab in Huntsville at the Marshall Space Flight center. I built some emulsion drying racks and developing tanks for photographic plates flown on balloon flights to the Ionosphere for Cosmic Ray studies. They would stack those plates and put various elements in between them and when cosmic rays hit them there was a series of decreasing size dots. Now depending on where in the stack these showed up they knew how to determine the element that emitted the cosmic ray and which basic direction they came from. I saw the plates and scientific genius at work. Measurable provable evidence.
And then there is you with your silly counter comment. Kind of reminds me of the kid who stands there with his eyes closed and ears plugged hollering I cant see you or hear you.
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