Ruminations On CD Players

jrcotner

I am a big fan of Arcam players as well, especially, the FMJ series. There has never been a better time to update a CD player. Check out AYRE CX-7e or CX-7e MP. Strictly cd playback and fits well within a budget of $2K.

Happy Listening!

Thats interesting. I don't recall ever seeing a new player in that price range that had a separate transport. Which ones did you see?

Rotel has a new one that Stereophile rates class A. $2300. 

Thanks for the info.  I don't recall if the separates were in my price range or not, just an observation that they exist.  I want to learn if it is something to save my pennies for, or if the sonic qualities of separates are subjective or only audible on higher-end equipment.  

I will post the required counter to investing again in a CD player.

First, you haven’t posted your system, so I have no idea of the quality, or even if you have a streamer/server, but assuming that you have a good quality streamer/server:

Ripping CDs is now a bit perfect process.  If a streamer can take advantage of SSD storage and is of good quality, you can have the quality end result of a top notch CD transport.

A bit over a year ago I decided to take the 4K I was going to spend on a top transport and upgrade my streamer/server and I’m very happy with the results.  My music is on an internal Aurender SSD and backed up to a Synology Raid network drive.  CDs are in storage.  All is controlled by my iPad.

Advantage of separate transport and DAC? The same as the advantage of not having your turntable built into your preamp.

@jrcotner - My two cents - One advantage to having a separate DAC and CD transport is the flexibility and potentially lower cost of a future change should you find replacing one or the other improves SQ further, or presents a different sound more to your liking.. That said, you will find differing views within threads on the importance of the  transport. I am in the camp that you don't want to short change with the transport , it definitely impacts the overall SQ realized. I state this via 1st hand experience having moved on from a Cambridge CXC transport (pretty decent) to a SimAudio 260DT transport ; both used in conjunction with a Modwright Elysee DAC.  With the budget that you want to stay in I'd recommend going for a traditional CD player versus separates;  depending upon your viewpoint on cables you might also have to allocate some of that budget to an upgraded power cord and digital cable. Staying with the CD player you would hopefully maximize your budget from an SQ standpoint. 

Best of luck with whatever decision you make. And, no need to be swayed from staying with CDs by the streamer crowd. Enjoy spinning! I do in 2 systems

At your price point , I’d be strongly. looking at preowned BRYSTON or SIMAUDIO 

I had the ARCAM FMJ CD23T cdp in a prior system , so I know its sonic signature very well. 

Stick with a CD player. In your price range there are plenty of options. You get a one box option without the extra cabling. 

All the best,
Nonoise

@facten 

Best of luck with whatever decision you make. And, no need to be swayed from staying with CDs by the streamer crowd. Enjoy spinning! I do in 2 systems

Indeed! 

The obligatory streaming audio recommendations are endemic (These days) despite the stated desires of the O.P.  Alas, well intended I recognize.🙂

@jrcotner

If you can stretch your budget, take the path of separate DAC and CD Transport. Not only this path would provide much superior Sound Quality, upgrade flexibility, it keeps a door open for Streaming in the future. 

For starters, consider Jay’s Audio Transport and one of many DAC’s offering from Denafrips.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/256123132662?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=t_bi82K9SLC&sssrc=4429486&ssuid=LfCp7wcARee&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY

https://www.hifishark.com/search?q=denafrips+dac

+1 @lalitk 

I use Jay's cdt2-mk3 CD transport with Gustard x26 pro dac which is also running my innuos zenith mk3 streamer. It all sounds equally great. Build for the future!

I have an Ayre all silver disc player....I love it

Pair a Denafrips DAC with a good Rotel or an Oppo 105 (if you can find one) and call it a day. 

The only real plus for separates is ease of upgrade but plenty of people believe that separates of any type (pre-amp/amp vs integrated) will sound better but without a way to verify it. Of course the huge negative is cost as well as more connection points to introduce noise. 

Try the new Schiit "URD" CD transport (just released, USA made of course) as they seem to know what they're doing, and if you use it with the Bifrost 2/64 (I have one...sounds excellent) you can utilize their own "unison" USB connection and get there for 2100 bucks or so. 

Other posters have made the same points, but my two cents:

1) The DAC is the main determinant of the sound. Transports matter, but imo the DAC/transport ratio is 80/20 in terms of ultimate SQ. I have had good DACs make average transports sound better, but not the reverse

2) DACs are more durable than transports. No laser, no disc spinning mechanism to misfire, no tray or door issues.

3) should you decide to explore streaming in the future, you can get a relatively cheap streamer, pair it with a good DAC, and have excellent results.

4) used DACs tend to be more durable then used CDPs for all the above reasons.

5) you can use any old CDP as a transport as long as it has digital outs. Perhaps your old Arcam can still function as a transport. You can always upgrade to a different transport later

If your budget was around $3K I would spend around $2500 for the DAC, new or used, and the rest on the transport.

Pro-ject has some well regarded transport and DAC choices if you desire matchy-matchy:  DS2T Transport - $899; S2+ DAC -$399; RS2T Transport - $3199; RS2 DAC -$2249.  (Maybe a little weird that they don’t have any DACs in range between $399 and $2249 - I think they used to.)

Plenty of options - Get an old Rotel and have the parts upgraded along with the laser if you want really good sound but don't want to spend too much.  Or get an old Cary 306SACD model and have that upgraded.  Once that is upgraded it will complete with much higher priced DACs for a ton less in standard Rebook CD sound.  We were amazed how good it sounded compared to DACs like the Mola-Mola, Kasandra, etc.

Happy Listening.

Thanks for the info and advice.  One of the posters asked about my system.  I have a Prima Luna Dialogue One amp and Forest Totem speakers.  I don't have a streamer and hate to say never, but I'll likely stick with CDs and vinyl.  When the time comes I'll pick a separate and inclusive CD player from the suggestions, and find an online dealer with a liberal return policy.    

Going down the road of transport and DAC gives a lot of flexibility for future upgrades and "tuning" SQ to ones liking. Limit of $2K is well enough to start on this path. Cambridge or Audiolab transports, very well regarded, and lots to chose from DAC category under $1.5K. Been there, done that.

If you have a dac I’d recommend getting a transport. Much more flexibility. 

I don't have a streamer and hate to say never, but I'll likely stick with CDs and vinyl.

It’s good you’re at least open to the possibility of streaming in the future.  Once I started streaming via Qobuz I very rarely spin a CD anymore because 90%+ of my music is available to stream from my chair in any order, and a good bit of it is also available in hi res.  Plus, I spend much more time exploring worlds of new music, which I find infinitely more rewarding, enlightening, and enjoyable than just playing the same stuff over and over — best thing to happen to audio in decades IMHO and has totally reinvigorated my love of audio.  My only regret is I didn’t start streaming even sooner.  All that said, if you do think you might try streaming in the future you might consider a separate transport/DAC or at least a CD player that has a digital input and can be used as a DAC.  These days you’ll also have a lot more choices in DACs than CD players, so there’s also that to consider.  Anyway, best of luck in whichever way you choose to go.

+1 mahler123 comments.   With a CDP you have to like the voicing of the DAC.  With separates you can either find the DAC to optimize your sonic preferences and or match your system.  There are tastes in DACs like Difference chip, R2R, tube buffer etc.  Can't match that with an all in one.  I'm running a Cambridge CXC transport and MHDT Orchid (R2R, tube single buffer) DAC. I can change the sound by swapping a single inexpensive 2C51 tube for $15 to $90 from warm, rounded to crisp and revealing with that tube.  I think MSRP for both is now around $2300.  I got an open box CXC for about $350.  Orchids are tougher to find used and new run about $1300.  And yes, a DAC will allow for future growth like a streamer.  

I like that idea.  I'll give the Orchid a look.  I'm getting swayed toward the notion of separates.

I think it’s so great that you’re keeping your mind open to other options, and in the end it will likely pay off big and be well worth the added effort.  I noticed that you haven’t really touched on what improvements you might aspire to with a new digital front end and what sound characteristics are most important to you as this should ultimately be what guides you to the best upgrade path, and any thoughts you have on this critical info could be very helpful in getting more targeted recommendations here.  Also, in addition to the Cambridge transport mentioned above I’ll also mention this Audiolab transport that has garnered a lot of positive feedback.  Just something else to chew on while your in research mode. 

https://www.crutchfield.com/p_2486KCDTS/Audiolab-6000CDT-Silver.html

Forgot to mention, I just watched a movie called “New in Town” starring Renee Zelwegger and Harry Connick Jr. that was actually pretty good and located in…wait for it…New Ulm, MN.  Coincidence?  Hmmm.

Will your unit still function as a transport ? i also say seperates and get a 2k used dac . I have a Cambridge player as transport and Bel Canto dac

Personally I prefer the separate CD transport and DAC solution, for many reasons others have pointed out. I use an Audiolab 6000CDT transport ($599) and a Denafrips Pontus II DAC ($1,825). That's $2,424 all in for a terrific CD transport and an amazing DAC. As time goes on (or if you have the funds) you could always upgrade either. If want to spend more up front, the Jay's Audio CDT2 MKII $2,500 is truly an end game transport......and what I will upgrade to.

I just scored about 90 used MHS Mozart and Beethoven albums, so I'm listening to a lot of that.  I mostly listen to classical from the romantic period back.  I've also developed an interest in medieval choral and early instrument music.  I'm trying to improve the equipment to accommodate voice and strings.  I recently replaced the turntable and the CD player is next.  I also need to track down the source of a mid-range screech, which I'll address in a future post. 

Marantz has always made excellent CD players. Look into a model under S1K.

I have Schiit Gungnir Dac paired with Cambridge DAc using Marigo apparition dig Cable this is a good combo for less than 2k. You can get Yamaha s1000 cdp with sacd  and transport capability  Iam using Denafrips Ares DAC And Kimber d60 digital cable. Good combo as well.for less than 2 k. You have Dac , transport and cdp.

OP don’t buy used CD player because lasers died in 10 yrs most of them. I don’t know about transport.Music direct has good sale of Ruby Marantz sometimes but it’s more than 2 k.

John, just food for thought for the present or future if you do go down the separates route. Transports are not all the same SQ wise and will either hold back or release the potential of the DAC. Benjamin Zwickel, Mojo Audio DACs, clued me into this when I was purchasing one of his ,and he was correct. I went from Cambridge CXC to Simaudio DT 260 and the SQ materially improved. Check out the threads on the top Project transport or the Jay’s transports and you will find similar experiences. Also, when you go beyond the likes of the Cambridge or Audio Lab transports one of the digital output connections might be optimized for SQ so you may want to have a DAC that accepts that connection. I initially used the SPDIF on the Simaudio and it sounded very good. However, out of curiosity I asked Simaudio if one of the connections was optimized for SQ and was told the AES/EBU was. The result was a further uptick in SQ. I believe the top of the line Project is optimized likewise, though folks using the SPDIF connection appear to be very pleased with its SQ. I don’t know if either of the Jay’s transports have an optimized output. Again, just some things to possibly consider.

I also need to track down the source of a mid-range screech, which I'll address in a future post.

Eeeek!  That sure don’t sound good.  Is that present with both vinyl and CDs?  I noticed your amp only puts out 36 Wpc in ultra linear mode (and obviously much less in triode) and recall the Totems tend to require some power, so I’d be a little concerned your amp may be straining to power your speakers and might be a source of what you’re hearing.  But this is just a semi-educated guess so just chalk it up as food for thought.  

It amazes me how the saying "the more things change the more they stay the same" applies to audio.  As a teenager back in the 1970's I had a turntable and many LP's.

When CD came along in the 1980's the popular belief was that vinyl playback would go the way of the dinosaur. However, Hi-End audio manufacturers didn't like the sound of compact discs and refrained from manufacturing CD players for nearly a decade, until they realized that CD had  become a viable alternative to analogue.

Yet, turntables didn't become obsolete at the time and instead have continued to experience a Renaissance, where more quality oriented turntables in various price ranges exist in the modern day than ever before.  

Then various other physical digital media formats entered the marketplace to compete with CD, all of which have since been largely displaced by non physical digital media formats which offer incredible convenience.

Meanwhile lots of enthusiasts still own many CD's, so CD players and transports are experiencing a similar type of resurgence to Vinyl and turntables.

As for the belief that CD playback benefits from using a separate transport and dac,  a case can certainly be made for this.  However, there are also many well designed CD players that do a fine job of CD playback.  I still use a 1992 Naim CDi for playing my CDs and it remains an excellent sounding source in spite of its age.

What amazes me is that my Onkyo C-7030 ($169 US in 2017) used as a CD transport with a number of my affordable dac's, gets so close to the CDi at a small fraction of what its inflation compensated value would be today (over $9000 US).  

In spite of its only being 16 bit 4X over sampling, the CDi has a sense of refinement that the C-7030 does not. Yet, IME, for casual listening the subtle improvements with the CDi go largely unnoticed.  

If you have a large CD collection and listen mostly to CD's -  and you listen critically - it's probably wise to make a significant investment in your CD playback system. 

Whether you choose a one box CD player or a separate transport/dac system has as much to do with the design implementation of components as it does with their quality.  It all comes down to what your audio needs are.  

Best of luck in your search and remember to enjoy the journey! 😊

I still own an Arcam Delta 70 they were very good players. Not using it now (I only have one of my 3 systems with a CD player, an Emotiva, but rarely use it since I ripped my entire CD library (thousands of them!) and boxed them up)  Consider streaming as an option.  It is a bit of work initially but has a lot to offer.

Naim cd5 si.

Open drawer, drop 💿, press play.

Benefit from Naim analogue stage.

Enjoy! 

Meanwhile lots of enthusiasts still own many CD's, so CD players and transports are experiencing a similar type of resurgence to Vinyl and turntables.

@jimmyblues1959 Yeah, while you make some good points I have to disagree with this one.  There are relatively few CD players left on the market and even fewer dedicated transports, and the numbers will continue to shrink as more people just stream or rip their CD collections to a server or external drive.  Conversely, the demand — and therefore and options — for analog rigs, DACs, and streamers are experiencing huge growth.  CD players and transports still have their place for now, but the handwriting is on the wall and they are the audio buggy whips of the future, and this will only accelerate as streamers/servers continue to improve and higher and higher performance can be had at an increasingly lower and lower cost.  CDs are going the way of the cassette and VCR and for many of the same reasons.  

Naim cd5 si.

Open drawer, drop 💿, press play.

Benefit from Naim analogue stage.

Enjoy! 

@cat345  The beauty of simplicity.  I like my Naim CDi for the same reason.

Soix,  you may well be right.  Time will tell. 

Regardless of the format the key is to enjoy the music. 😊

Jayctoy has it right...no used unless covered.A used oppo is a cheap refurfish but my sim $ to replace drive.It does sound better than it ever has.

still love sim quality build.

If you purchase an MHDT Orchid and you're handy with a soldering iron, you can do much more to upgrade this DAC to a more analog sound by not only tube rolling but replacing the large 2 uF caps with much higher quality caps and investing in an 'S' grade chip(but these can be expensive....takes some hunting to find one for less than $200). I'm using an Audiolab CD transport. This combo comes very close to sounding like my very expensive analog system fed through high quality speakers.

Regardless of the format the key is to enjoy the music. 

@jimmyblues1959 Big +1 there brother.  In the end we all pick what’s most comfortable and sounds the best to us. That’s the ONLY thing that matters in the end.

I’m using a Cambridge Audio CXC CD Transport @$599.00. It requires an external DAC. My DAC of choice is the Jolida Glass FX Tube DAC III @$750.00 and uses twin 12AX7 tubes in the input stage. The sound of this combination is miraculous in that the Cambridge is exact and sonically pure in its bit-perfect output. The DAC, with its 12AX7 dual-triode front end returns the audio character to a softer analog presence reminiscent of a vinyl format. The pair of components won’t break the bank either.

Project rs2 transport is amazing... A bit over budget in US maybe so next one down rs transport is under a grand and top loading like the Rs2 so no tray wobbles ever. I matched mine with rs2 DAC as perfect partner but a SH chord qutest is great value for money too. 

The Nuprime CDP-9 with LPS212 Linear power supply. The best CD playback

I've ever had-

pawsman

The OP didn’t mention SACD, but I think the Denon flagship CD/SACD is in his price range.  I had just pulled an earlier version out of storage after several years and was pleasantly reminded of how good it is

@vonhelmholtz

A bit over a year ago I decided to take the 4K I was going to spend on a top transport and upgrade my streamer/server and I’m very happy with the results. My music is on an internal Aurender SSD and backed up to a Synology Raid network drive. CDs are in storage. All is controlled by my iPad.

Glad you’re happy with your set-up. I have no doubt it sounds excellent.  

I spend enough time and experience more than enough frustration as it is with my PC, smart-phone and various other digital devices with screens. Having a similar interface with my audio system holds absolutely zero appeal for me.

Call me a "dinosaur", a "nostalgist" or even a "nostalgic dinosaur"; I enjoy searching shelves for a CD, pulling it off the shelf, removing it from it’s case and placing it into my Jay’s. Perhaps there’s a ritual aspect to it -- I haven’t psychoanalyzed myself in this particular regard but it’s physical media for me!

Call me a "dinosaur", a "nostalgist" or even a "nostalgic dinosaur"; I enjoysearching shelves for a CD, pulling it off the shelf, removing it from it’s case and placing it into my Jay’s. Perhaps there’s a ritual aspect to it -- I haven’t psychoanalyzed myself in this particular regard but it’s physical media for me!

@stuartk Well, that’s fine if you enjoy the “ritual” and playing the same stuff over and over again.  But what you’re really missing out on more than anything else by not embracing streaming are the thousands upon thousands of new songs/albums you’d have access to (a lot of it in hi res BTW) for the price of just one new CD per month.  Finding and enjoying new music is infinitely more enjoyable than living Groundhog Day over and over. Once you experience discovering worlds of new music, going back and spinning the same CDs seems downright stifling and Neanderthal.  That’s been my experience anyway, and I very rarely spin a CD anymore and don’t miss it in the least.  But, to each his own.