Ruminations On CD Players

"Thomas and Stereo" on CD Players

After following this thread for some time, I must say I believe @jrcotner made a great purchase. I own the Cambridge transport and from everything I 'heard' here and elsewhere the Jolida DAC is wonderful at it's price.  I believe it would take much over $2K to do better.

I play CDs. I stream qobuz via computer to find ones to purchase. Streaming opens up my music world however my 2 systems are dedicated to CD playback for serious listening. 

Congrats! Seems like that would be a good combo.Enjoy

@jrcotner 

Congratulations and it is gratifying to know you had such a satisfactory outcome.

Charles

Congratulations.it is great when happiness follows.

After much consideration and review of the preceding posts, I finally pulled the trigger on a CD player.  I got a Cambridge CXC v2 and a Jolida Glass FX III DAC.  They sound great together and are a considerable improvement over my Arcam CD-73.  I got the Cambridge on sale and the Jolida used, so I came in way under budget.  And much better sound, which is the goal.  Thank you all for your valuable input and insights.  

@nonoise Ibid. 

@soix 

You just did and, .......goodbye.

All the best,
Nonoise

@nonoise I don’t deal in ridiculous circular reasoning or disinformation.  I’ve made my points and stand by them, and I’m out.

@soix 

"unfairly diss streaming".....you talk like you're dating and defending her honor. Your chivalry is misplaced. 

"not knowing what you're talking about" ....yes, I do, and you're starting to sound a lot like freddy.

"unsolicited disinformation'....give me a break. This is not your personal sandbox and goes contrary to what you said earlier about having a say in something.

"ha!"....meh

All the best,
Nonoise

Music Threads here and in various forums.

Haven’t forgotten … family, friends, co-workers, strangers, etc etc.

Well, from the OP…

I don't have a streamer and hate to say never

That doesn’t sound like someone who’s at least not open to new info along with getting thoughts on CD players versus a separate transport and DAC.  Nobody here is trying to force streaming down the OP’s throat but rather just provide some info that might be useful down the road.  All was fine until you decided to unfairly diss streaming without even knowing what you’re talking about.  Added info is rarely a bad thing here, but unsolicited disinformation is counterproductive and should be called out as such.  And yeah, I’m sure looking forward to other folks’ thoughts on CDs being a better way to discover new music than streaming.  Ha!

@soix 

You are the one that brought up your “perceived” limitations of streaming and brought this off topic, not me.

And here's the OP's query:

Any recommendations on CD players in this price range?  I only have music CDs so don't need anything that can do more than that.

Tell me how it's me that took this off topic?

Just wait for the other members to chime in later. I can wait.

All the best,
Nonoise

nonoise

10,308 posts

08-17-2023 at 03:24pm 

@soix Oh brother, are you being anal today. I brought up what I see as limitations of a medium and you take it oh so personally, like I attacked you and you only.

Seems to be a pattern

*Riding out on my high horse*

@nonoise 

I brought up what I see as limitations of a medium and you take it oh so personally

Well, there ya go.  You are the one that brought up your “perceived” limitations of streaming and brought this off topic, not me.  And I don’t take it personally at all.  I just refuted your assertions with some facts and actual experience.  The reason you’re likely getting very defensive here is because you’re realizing you don’t know what you don’t know when it comes to streaming and when confronted by someone with actual experience in the medium you got nuthin’ except a belief based on nothing.  If anyone is taking this personally it’s you.

@soix Oh brother, are you being anal today. I brought up what I see as limitations of a medium and you take it oh so personally, like I attacked you and you only. Your caveat about "counter to my experience" is running a bit thin and the only valid thing you have to say about the matter so leave it at that.

As for letting the chips fall where they may, that is something you should practice and not just preach. And yes, others will chime in later in the day, as is their wont. Almost to a person, they'll say the same thing I did: why the heck are people touting things that the OP asked not to, and why is it always the same people? 

To fall back on "differing opinions" of a nature not germane to the OP's query clearly sidesteps the issue. You were called out so let those chips fall. As for opening my mind, it is. I won't pay for amounts to background music that I can get on my radio.

All the best,
Nonoise

@nonoise Oh my, aren’t we sensitive.  You’re the one that brought up your perceived “deficiencies” of streaming, and if you go back and look the only thing I did was refute claims you made that were either inaccurate or ran very counter to my experience.  And I’m not “elevating” myself — I just had low-hanging and uninformed fruit being dangled in front of me.  Had you not proactively raised these issues I would’ve not responded so you can just blame yourself for baiting the subject, but when I read things that I find misleading or that run counter to my experience I tend to respond with my own take.  I disagree with you strongly on some of the things you said.  That’s all.  It’s a forum, which is supposed to be an exchange of ideas and experiences.  If I’m wrong I expect to be called out on it and so should you and then just let the chips fall where they may.  I’m sure others will chime in with their thoughts and experiences, and I welcome them all because that’s how I often learn valuable things here.  If you can open your mind a little and take your head outta the CD racks long enough maybe you will too. 

@soix 

This happens all the time. Someone asks about CDPs or CDTs and members like you take a crap on the thread and talk about streaming to the point of shoving it down their throats. Get a life. Your turn will come when another thread about streaming pops up.

Your persistent need to elevate yourself above me and others is downright weird and off-putting. Continue with your belief that you're in the majority and superior to all others who don't do as you do if it gives you the warm and fuzzies. You sound like you need all the support you can get.

Do you get a subpoena from Jack Smith? Is that what accounts for your foul attitude? 

All the best,
Nonoise

@nonoise 

Getting rather picky for my typing too quickly and leaving out an "r", eh?

You forgot an “er.”

I'm not saying streaming is some substandard way to discover new music. You're just putting words in my mouth so you'll have some made up motive to attack.

You were clearly painting streaming as “less than” because with streaming you don’t own the music and that you have to intentionally look for something you don’t know exists (see my prior post) both of which are patently false.  I’m not “attacking” anyone but rather just refuting your statements because they’re either inaccurate or run counter to my own experience.  Sorry if you take having your false or uninformed assertions as an attack, but I stand by everything I said in response to your statement. 

To say I'm in the "extreme minority"  because you don't want to go back to CDs speaks of some unresolved issues you have so keep them to yourself.

But you are in the extreme minority.  Most people here have embraced and love streaming.  That you choose not to is perfectly fine, but you don’t get to make up your own facts.  Most people who stream don’t go back to CDs unless it’s not available to stream.  Maybe it’s time to face the fact that you’re the one with the unresolved issues (i.e. trapped in the past) and not the vast majority of us who’ve moved on with both technology and the times.

I personally disagree here. It’s not so much the tactile feel (save for LP’s) as is the ease of use, “quality” playback, and keeping Record Stores (what’s left) in business. Half of their showroom floor is devoted for such cause, obviously. And if one doesn’t find what they’re looking for “Spin” is more then obliged special ordering for customers needs. I’ve no quarrels paying more at certain times for the greater good. Spin Records, Carlsbad San Diego.

@soix 

Getting rather picky for my typing too quickly and leaving out an "r", eh?

"At least on Qobuz" isn't representative of the entire industry.

I never said I can't randomly find music online as I do it all the time without streaming. It's just that you're more likely to see something new in a store setting by accident.

I'm not saying streaming is some substandard way to discover new music. You're just putting words in my mouth so you'll have some made up motive to attack. I'm not speaking our of total ignorance. Project much? Your defensive nature and knee jerk reaction is completely out of line to this discussion. To say I'm in the "extreme minority"  because you don't want to go back to CDs speaks of some unresolved issues you have so keep them to yourself.

The OP wanted advice on CDPs stating he wanted only views on that so chill down and stop pushing your agenda.

All the best,
Nonoise

@nonoise Sorry, but there’s some info here that’s just not true and needs to be corrected.

Everyone who pushes streaming sounds like they’re reciting ad copy from the manufacture.

It’s manufacturer. Manufacture is a verb, not a noun.

For the price of one CD you have a tenuous hold on all that music as the provider can change or drop it at will. You never really own it.

That’s not true. At least on Qobuz and probably most others you have the option to purchase and download music in which case you do own it. Plus, you have the flexibility to download just the songs you like if you prefer and not have to buy the whole CD.

The main point of my take was that there’s music out there in a store setting that you happen upon whereas with streaming you have to intentionally look for something you have no idea of exists.

That’s also not true in my experience. I’m constantly finding excellent new music in Qobuz I didn’t know existed, and there are thousands upon thousands more options there than in any store anywhere. You’re wrong that you can’t just randomly find interesting new music through streaming — just flat-out wrong. Plus, I can find just about everything you can find in any store on Qobuz with relatively very few exceptions while you can’t find a small fraction of what’s on Qobuz in any store. Period.

I get that you like the tactile feel of flipping through discs at a store and that’s fine, but don’t pretend that streaming is some substandard way to discover new music because it’s absolutely not and you’re just speaking out of total ignorance. If u wanna stay old school that’s fine and to each his own, but don’t put down streaming just because you don’t understand it and it’s not your bag. You’re in the extreme minority here in that virtually none of us would give up streaming and go back to searching for physical media in stores (or even online). What does that tell you?

@lalitk 

I did not mean this to be a debate, just a matter of differing opinions.

@dabel 

Hey, two out of three ain't bad at all. 😄 Despite CDs not doing as well as vinyl and streaming here, stateside, CDs have double the sales of vinyl in Germany and England. I don't think CDs are going anywhere for the foreseeable future. 

All the best,
Nonoise

Some of the chatter (which I highly respect) on Compact Disc and her future survival after all this time boggles the mind. Happens to be my preferred format since its conception. Yeah, those Redbook. Besides, if one angles them sunlight just right … “blinded by the light.”

@nonoise we share something important in common. In fact, two out of three … not bad of an average if ya asked me.

@nonoise

I respect your decision not to embrace streaming for whatever reasons.

@lalitk 

No, it's not the same for the very same reason you brought up: physical touch, which was my point. Akin but not exact. Everyone who pushes streaming sounds like they're reciting ad copy from the manufacture. Others here have pointed out that all that's out there doesn't really appeal to them. Same with me. 

The main point of my take was that there's music out there in a store setting that you happen upon whereas with streaming you have to intentionally look for something you have no idea of exists. No algorithm is going to push that at you.

For the price of one CD you have a tenuous hold on all that music as the provider can change or drop it at will. You never really own it. You're just renting it, and by the sound of it, hoarding it. Some of the time it's not what they say it is (HiRez). There is also music that is only on CD that's not available online (certain versions, takes, special editions, rare venues, etc.).

If this were happening in China (which we're starting to emulate) you'd all be getting high marks for being that good citizen/consumer.

All the best,
Nonoise

+1 @lalitk I’ve found more new music on Qobuz than I ever have in a store.  I do admit I miss the smell of a real record store though. 

@nonoise

I appreciate your sentiments but your argument doesn’t quite hold up here. Streaming is exactly akin to places like Borders but at much much larger scale. You may be lacking the physical touch, human interactions, ambiance of shopping music in a store but with Streaming, you are gaining huge library of music at a bargain price of one CD.

I still buy CD and Vinyl but very selectively cause l like the enjoy the tactile experience.

I just read that online shopping hurts new product discovery. When you go to a grocery store, you buy whatever you like and come across. When you buy on Instacart, you buy the same thing as last time, so low variety. Online grocery shopping makes product demand less elastic.

People can buy whatever book they want on Amazon but by going to a bookstore you can buy what you weren't looking for. Online shopping hurts new product discovery compared to in-person shopping. 

Despite what you think you're doing online, an algorithm is pushing what it thinks you'll like base on past preferences and buying habits/records. Not what I'd call exploring but more of a guided tour. There are sites that map out music similar to the artist you like but I rarely, if ever, like them.

This is why I miss places like Borders where they used to have these vast collections of physical media (CDs) and plenty of listening stations with headphones. I'd spend inordinate amounts of time listening to all manner of music, making myself try out all types and genres of music. 

Call me a hunter-gatherer. It's in my DNA. I'll stick to CDPs.

All the best,
Nonoise

As far as supporting artists, one can still stream and continue to buy physical media.
 

If you are willing to sell a car, you can attend a concert.  My kids like KPop and attend Korean pop concerts in Dallas.  A good, but not great seat is $300 and they fill baseball stadiums.  Front row center and back stage passes are beyond expensive.

Soix, is spot on. The amount of hi-res music out on Qobuz and other platforms is impressive. Like many other Agon members, I enjoy listening to new artists and music by utilizing Qobuz. It will be interesting to watch how the use of CDs changes over time. With a good streamer, you can already obtain CD quality music. With the advancements in audio/digital technology, we will see continued improvements in the future. 

mahler123

"Perhaps Audio Fanaticism is an outlet for this kind of aggression, much the way that sports channels aggression into less dangerous areas."

I think it is very poignant observation.

@mapman 

+1 

A CD player is a transport + streamer + DAC. In todays world it really only makes sense to invest in the Streamer + DAC… beyond that music is essentially free ($12.99 / month for access to nearly infinite music with hundreds of thousands of high resolution albums. 

Personally I would not drop a dime on any high end CD player these days before giving ripping and streaming a try. That’s really the way to go these days for anyone willing to tackle the initial learning curve.

@secretguy Well, you’re wrong and I do love music as does everyone else here (most of whom stream BTW), but I don’t control how the music industry operates.  So I guess this means you’re also against the used CD market because the artist gets zilch from those sales.  If they wanna up the streaming subscription price to pay artists better I’m ok with that.  What I do know is the toothpaste ain’t going back in the tube and streaming is here to stay, and hopefully they’ll work it out so it’s more fair and everyone wins.  Further, choosing to not stream music will not change a thing, and you’ll just be missing out on discovering worlds of awesome music out there.  To each his own. 

@knock1 

I second the remark about why certain individuals here that enjoy streaming always feel compelled to tell people inquiring about CD players to junk them .  
  It reminds me of the digital vs. analog debate, with the fanatics lined up on both sides., but here we have digital vs digital.  The analog lovers aren’t immune from this either.  Check out the ferocity of the direct vs belt drive turntables. 
   I suppose there could be worse things than audio fanaticism.  We could be screaming at each other that there is only one true religion, and murdering those that don’t share our belief.   Perhaps Audio Fanaticism is an outlet for this kind of aggression, much the way that sports channels aggression into less dangerous areas.  Whatever.

  In truth we live in a time where there are many ways to achieve excellent sound.  Analog, CD replay, streaming.  Even Internet Radio and Bluetooth have improved to a point where they probably sound better than what most of us had back in the day.  There are differences between them, enough to want to have preferences between technologiies.  It’s interesting how small differences sometimes yield the loudest controversy 

As far as supporting artists, one can still stream and continue to buy physical media. To @soix point, even if one’s been collecting physical media; there is so much music to explore out there. Those opposed to streaming are simply not keeping an open mind or content with repeated playback their music collection.

I went on quite a journey looking for a better sounding CD player. Then I remembered I do have a few SACDs, and now used SACDs are inexpensive, so I narrowed the choice to CD/SACD players.

I don't stream, so external DAC, versatile inputs are of no interest to me.

It became clear to me that is is the combo of transport, processor, filters, over-clocking, IOW, it is a salad of many parts that give the final sound.

I ended up buying and loving the sound of a used Sony XA-5400 ES. The lasers do get old/weak, so any used one, find out the approximate hours of use. Also, are parts available for that model, do a simple search on hifishark for units and parts.

My Quest, with help here, a long read, but much discovered along the way. It may be helpful to you when finalizing on a different unit.

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/sony-sacd-player-scd-xa5400es-yay-or-nay

@soix 

+1

@secretguy Nobody is forcing an artist to make their music available to stream, so if they feel they’re getting “ripped off” then just don’t do it.  Plus, the vast majority of music I stream I would’ve never found or bought otherwise, so at least they’re getting something through streaming rather than nothing.  I suggest getting off your high horse, or, maybe more appropriately, your dinosaur. 

soix

7,193 posts

08-12-2023 at 07:35pm 

 

 

Call me a "dinosaur", a "nostalgist" or even a "nostalgic dinosaur"; I enjoysearching shelves for a CD, pulling it off the shelf, removing it from it’s case and placing it into my Jay’s. Perhaps there’s a ritual aspect to it -- I haven’t psychoanalyzed myself in this particular regard but it’s physical media for me!

@stuartk Well, that’s fine if you enjoy the “ritual” and playing the same stuff over and over again.  But what you’re really missing out on more than anything else by not embracing streaming are the thousands upon thousands of new songs/albums you’d have access to (a lot of it in hi res BTW) for the price of just one new CD per month.  Finding and enjoying new music is infinitely more enjoyable than living Groundhog Day over and over. Once you experience discovering worlds of new music, going back and spinning the same CDs seems downright stifling and Neanderthal.  That’s been my experience anyway, and I very rarely spin a CD anymore and don’t miss it in the least.  But, to each his own. 

Plus he doesn't get the joy of ripping off an artist with every stream!! Good times!!

I correctly titled this post.  Ruminations, indeed.

Cyrus makes some nice stuff, I have their transport. Also have a Marantz hdcd-1 which is a good cd player as well as a transport.

jrcotner

I will describe to you my experience, not what I had read or heard from others. I bought Denafrips Ares II and utilized Arcam CD192 as a transport, it was great improvement, then I replaced Arcam with Cambridge CXC transport that was very noticeable improvement over Arcam transport section. I did go further up the ladder since. I have learned from my own experience that dedicated transport matters.

P.S. 

I do not understand why whenever there is a discussion about CD medium, there are multitudes of posters joining in on bandwagon trying very hard to "persuade" how antiquated this concept is and the streaming is the ONLY way to go. 

Then there are others coming up with ideas of an equipment with price tags severalfold  exceeding clearly stated OP's budget.

Just my three cents.

@mbmi ah, no.  Maybe that's a generational thing but I only search by artist then CD.  Hit play.   Listen.  If I like it I add it to my "virtual" collection.  It's like having a free pass to an infinite record store for less than the price of 1 CD per month.  FLAC quality and I can't tell difference from the disc with a transport and separate DAC.  

Folks, 

Please re-read my comments again and you will see my current viewpoint IS based on listening. Yes, behind that, I do understand the technology and along with measurements are ONE side of the information, but it is the music that counts and that is always first. Set aside the convince factor of playing a disk vs dragging several disks to a queue. That does not have any bearing on sound. 

When what is suggested stretches from the unknowns about our hearing and our inadequacy of measurements to flat out impossible in this universe, then yea, my understanding of science pops up it's head.  Maybe a little broader understanding of how the transports actually work would help.   

 In the land of only sound, once you have the bits in a buffer, it is the reconstruction that makes all the difference. All of it. How stable the transport is becomes irrelevant.  What is super is we can then spend our money on that part that does matter: DAC, AMP, Speakers. Even the analog cables if you must as real effects that do not violate the laws of physics exist. At least when I RIP a CD, any re-read is taken care of so playback will never have a skip. Well never is if I set the buffer correctly in the player as Windows is too stupid to pay attention to run level like True64 was. Maybe we can then talk about the really confusing and unknowns with the dozens of digital filtering algorithms, how to deal with filter overshoot,  different up sampling, different dithering, and how those effect the DAC with respect to everyone's  preferences in sound.  All of these things can effect the sound. Some more than others and it differs person to person.  I looked at the WEBs of the fore mentioned transports, and surprise! no discussion of this at all. 

 Granted, how well controls work matters. One thing I loved about my old Rotel is how snappy it was to controls.  Push "Open" and it opened. Did not have to think about it. Powered up without taking forever to boot Java. Hit play, and no screen saying "reading disk". It played. I miss my OPPO DVD as when I upgraded to 4K I had to buy a Panasonic. Dog slow. 

If these mega buck transports are actually streaming real time from the disk so the stability and micro-vibrations they claim are important effect the accuracy or timing, well IMHO, they were obsolete both in engineering and in sound 30 years ago. If your DAC is so obsolete as to require the input timing to be precise, well it too is obsolete. Sorry. My $109 JDS DAC is better than that and it is far from SOA.  A CD transport is not a turntable and those mechanical factors that are critical just do not happen in a transport. 

There is a lot we don't understand about sound reproduction. But there is a lot we do. I have found a degree in electronics to be helpful to point me to where there could be real sonic differences so I can afford real improvements, not that I have not been fooled in the past. We are all human.

I express my experience and understanding so others can think and make rational decisions based on their own hearing and still be within this universe laws. Not "Madison ave. engineering"  For the international audience, that is the headquarters in NY for advertising. Home of very slippery squamata as they are well oiled. Your money of course. 

I have had players/transports w/separate DACS for years and am still buying CD's.

New doesn't mean better. I had 2 Arcams and were underwhelmed. Detailed but over all thin sounding ( to me)

I have a wonderful California Audio Labs Icon II CDP .Built like a tank, nice transformer and is bullet proof. It's mated to a very rare Kora-Hermes  non over sampling tube DAC with a Monarchy Audio re-clocker in between the two.

I think used the whole set up- used ,was maybe 1,400 bucks - less interconnects AC and digital cables . Sounds fantastic! If you want new the Rotel would be the bang for the buck choice.

The nice thing about the outboard DAC is the ability to get more SQ and tailor  (especially with a tube DAC) the sound to your liking.

As far as the whole streamer thing: I have a Internet tuner, running into the Kora,( 3 input DAC! )I have not found a streamer I like yet...

An internet tuner ( there are many out there for a reasonable price ) maybe the way to get your feet wet.

I HAD to go that way because of all the new high rise construction in my area. I couldn't receive the  Classical music station I liked cleanly in MONO! -Stereo reception went away years ago -despite a range of antennas.   

My humble Ocean Digital tuner, less than 200 bucks new with an added IFI power supply - 50 bucks and another Monarchy re-clocker is doing an OUTSTANDING job.  It's been running 24/7 for years!

It's background mostly but it's great fun to listen to stations from all over the world and it does not need a smart phone to run it. It's self contained like a normal piece of gear.

Don't let those snobs push you around. As far as physical media,they are still making plenty of turntables aren't they......

Good luck whichever way you go!

HG-NYC

I recommend spending more time listening and a bit less time thinking about how there cannot be a difference

@ghdprentice BIG +1!!!