Relaxed/Analog sounding DAC for under $10k (used or new)
Hi all. I'm currently using an Allnic D5000 DHT DAC which I got to replace a denafrips Pontus II not too long ago. While I do enjoy this dac, it can sound a bit forward in higher frequencies at times and can get a bit fatiguing. The 3A5 tubes are a bit finicky and don't last especially long either. It seems to sound best with coax input and with native DSD files, but my streamer only has USB output, and I exclusively stream via Qobuz with no DSD albums, so I'm not sure it's the best long term match from a synergy standpoint for me. I get the feeling that it was designed around being used primarily with a CD transport, which is not something I am interested in ever adding to my system.
My primary listening setup is centered around analog vinyl playback, so that tends to be my point of reference. I prefer laid back and musical sound versus striving for absolute detail retrieval that can sometimes come off a bit too clinical or harsh to me.
Going through various threads, some things stick out to me - T+A D200, SW1X, etc. I've also heard some Lampizator DACs that I liked (though mostly their very high end models that are outside my budget). I know typically people recommend R2R for a more 'analog' experience, but I also know that that is not the end-all-be-all with DACs, and implementation and intention matters a fair amount more. There are some DAC manufacturers that design their DACs around being used with CDs and don't care for streaming, so their performance is not optimized for use with streaming, etc.
Please do not turn the thread into a debate about the merits of R2R vs D-S. Not really relevant to me and I am mainly looking to see what ideas people toss at me.
Anyway, as a TL;DR, looking for a DAC that satisfies these points:
1. Leaning more musical/analog sounding, with a focus on laid back sound that is non-fatiguing;
2. wide soundstage and fantastic imaging;
3. Optimized for PCM streaming audio + USB input;
4. Ideally under $10k (new or used);
5. Black chassis option
There is a long thread started by Verdant Audio called “Dac Shootout Starts This Weekend” where Verdant, a dealer, compares numerous dacs, some of which he sells and some not. I think it could be a valuable place to start your journey.
Consider Mojo Audio's "Mystique Y" dac with upgraded power supply chokes. Optimized for USB and has many elements of your desired sound signature. PCM only. Within your budget too.
It's a newer model, so if you're looking for reviews - search for EVO or Mystique X reviews. All Mojo dacs have a very similar sound.
I have not sampled a ton of DAC’s, but I also gravitate towards the relaxed, analog sound over extreme detail. I recently upgraded from the Schiit Gungnir Multibit R2R DAC to a Merason Reuss, and it fits the bill. I bought this based on the advice of a friend who has the Merason DAC1, and also hearing the Merason sound at AXPONA this year. Worth checking out.
Given what you’re looking for I’d give Lampizator another hard look. I’d also seriously consider the new LTA Aero DAC and believe they offer a 14-day trial, which is huge. Best of luck.
According to the review I read Audio mirror DAC might be the one for you. Brand new 6k. You can read Teajay review as well. Lampozator might be a good candidate.
I've had a Holo Audio May KTE DAC for the past 4 years or so, and I am very happy with its performance; that was under $10K, complete with separate power supply.
Loving the T+A Dac 200. 5 k on the resell side. Detailed but easy to listen to and that’s with Be tweeters and midrange in my Persona f5. Really shines feeding it DSD but PCM sounds great too.
@chayro - I will look into that thread, thank you!
@veroguy - interesting, I have not heard of those. Will take a look!
@sls883 - I did get to hear the new LTA DAC at SWAF a few months ago. Sounded pretty nice and was pretty shocked at the low price point. BUT hard to fully critically evaluate a DAC at a hotel show setting.
@zlone - Will look into them. The DAC1 looks interesting.
@soix - Lampizator is great at the high end - I really like the Poseidon DAC but it's quite beyond my means! The 'lower end' Lampi model I have heard - the Baltic 4 - left things to be desired. I suppose, hearing the Poseidon first and then the Baltic, it's easy to just compare the two and just notice the shortfalls of the much cheaper model haha. Good to know about the LTA trial.
@glennewdick - the chord dave is a DAC I've seen mentioned a lot, but I admit I have not looked much into them. Will need to give it a look!
@larsman - The holo may has seen a lot of hype in the review landscape, but I can't say I've ever seen one on demo, though my show experiences are limited.
@benzman - yeah, that is what I've read about the T+A - it is best suited with DSD, where it can outperform more expensive DACs. I don't really have any intentions in trying to build a DSD library, since my digital chain is exclusively for streaming, so I'd rather have something that is tuned specifically to provide its 'best experience' with USB/PCM. It would feel a bit odd to buy a DAC at this price point and then use the lesser configuration, at least to me.
If you're looking for an analog-sounding type of DAC, Chord may not be the best fit for you. They are excellent DAC's, for sure, but not many will accuse them of having a relaxed, analog type of sound. I've had a Hugo II and I've had a DAVE, with and without an M-Scaler, and sold them both because I was looking for a more analog-y sound, too. But by all means give their gear a listen if you're able to audition it.
Musical Fidelity M6X Dac. Not expensive. I like it better than the T+A Dac 200 I had. It's also the only Dac that uses the Sabre chip that I've really liked. You can get find it online with a return policy from Safe & Sound. Comes in black or silver.
I would recommend listening to an Audio Research Reference DAC9. Be aware it does not do dsd. I was really shocked when I first heard it and have yet to hear a better sounding DAC although I have had better in my system. It is extraordinarily musical without losing detail.
I also have a DAC that does DSD and my current thinking, especially with streaming, is the overall sound of your system is by far the most important determinant of the sound… second is the mastering, third is the format, and finally trailing behind is the connection type.
So, I listen to a a lot of different albums. Sometimes I am struck by how great an album sounds. So I look, thinking, that must be a high def recording… seldom is it… it is just a well recorded red book resolution stream. My digital leg sounds the same as my really good analog leg, so the same observations apply.
Now the point of my system is to be musical and natural, image really well, naturally reproduce great bass, and be detailed. It is not to be detailed at all costs… strip away the midrange and enhance the treble to enhance the ability to hear detail. In this context… which sounds like your aim, consider a ARC Ref 9. You can buy used to get well below $10K.
There are many reasons why you can be experiencing fatigue. The DAC to amp/preamp matching where there’s sn impedance mismatch, interconnects from dac to pre or amp (I’ve experienced fatigue with few cables until I found what matched perfectly), DAC itself can emphasize presence region and annoy you, room acoustics, etc.
Your DAC output impedance is 150 ohms which means the input impedance of your preamp or integrated should be at least 10x that and preferably more. If the amp has low input impedance the balance shifts towards higher frequencies as the bass is reduced. Keep this in mind now and in the future when you select a new DAC. Solid state DACs will typically have lower output impedance and match better with most equipment. Just something to think about
Don’t get too hung up on DACs that sound like vinyl records. They don’t exist. Find a DAC that is better and more evenly balanced top to bottom.
In your price range you can find a used MSB Discrete if you’re patient. Or try Bricasti with severa filter options to relax the presentation a bit.
Gold Note DS1000 Evo perhaps? Tilts a little towards warm I believe. I have the DS10 and prefer it in head to head with DCS Bartok. More full bodied to my ears. Ds10 and DS1000 use same chip, so should be same, only more.
@steakster - thanks, I am fairly confident it is the DAC that is bordering on the slightly bright side of things. I've spoken to another owner of the DAC (there aren't many of us!) who experienced some of the same brightness. Don't get me wrong - it's not incredibly bright to where I'm desperate to replace - but it's on the bright side of neutral for me. If I use oversampling at all, it makes it exponentially worse. It pushes mids and highs to a point where sure they may be very detailed and open sounding, but it's quite unbalanced and ends up making vocals very sibilant where they may not have been before. Of course, when criticizing gear, we're often focusing on magnifying little negatives and they can come across in writing as a lot more extreme than they actually are, so wanted to clarify a bit that it isn't anything extreme, just on the brighter side of neutral in my system and I'd prefer on the warmer side of neutral.
I am considering a future upgrade to an Innuos Pulsar streamer from my Zen MK3, but it's not high on the priority list right now. I do want to stick with Innuos though as I really like their Sense program. I already have a LAN filter in use that I've had for some time, and have tested with and without and it has no impact on any of these perceived small sound issues.
@audphile1 - The input impedence of my linestage is 50 kOhm, so I'd assume that wouldn't be the issue. I did recently swap all of my interconnect cables to Triode Wire Lab spirits, and those made a nice improvement in my overall sound (in both digital and analog chains).
I don't experience this same slight imbalance on my analog playback, so that narrows it down to the streamer and the dac. The streamer did not have this issue with my previous dac, but introducing the new dac and living with it a while is when I started to notice it, especially with longer listening sessions (the first month or so I was very busy with work so was limited to an hour or two a day at most).
I really, honestly, just think that the DAC isn't the best synergistic match with the rest of my system, not that the DAC is 'bad' or anything. That's just how it is sometimes and that's totally ok. I don't want to try to force a square block in a round hole, so to speak, when the solution might just be to replace the unit with something that works better with the rest of my gear. Of course, I will need to demo options in my system, and that is absolutely a must for me before committing to my next DAC. Won't know til I try!
And yeah. I suppose the whole 'wanting digital to sound analog' chase is silly, but *for me* that really just distills down to looking for slightly warmer, natural, non-fatiguing sound. A lot of high end 'hifi' these days tends to overemphasize detail retrieval over all else and it's often very fatiguing for me - especially since I'm often listening my entire work day.
Thanks everyone for the suggestions so far (either for specific gear or possible other avenues to look into)! I appreciate all the feedback.
I have developed over years a severe aversion/sensibility for all exacerbating high frequencies artefact. I had to change my integrated amplifier 3 times, my DAC 3 times, my speakers 3 times, my music server 2 times along with various cable changes. The worse error I made was to hang-on to my Spendor D7 not realizing they were the biggest source of high frequencies listening fatigue.
In the end, after all these changes (integrated amp Accuphase E-370, music server Innuos Zenith MK3, speakers Pierre-Etienne Léon Kantor S3.2), I noticed that my PS Audio Directstream DAC MK1 (even after the output transformer upgrade) was giving me some listening fatigue, but I could have stopped there. But then, my old Micromega CDF1 CD player gave out - I was only using it very sparingly with most of my listening being done through the DSD MK1 DAC. After some shopping around for a new CD player, I was intrigue by the Marantz SACD 30n: it was both a CD player and a DAC accepting USB input, and was doing a DSD conversion (which I found much smoother than PCM when properly implemented) using the Marantz Musical Mastering (MMM) digital-to-analog converter as a lesser version than the one available on their Reference SACD and CD Player SA-10. To this day, I have not found one single PCM implementation that did not cause me listening fatigue (be it DAC chips, R2R, Chord pulse-array). To my surprise, after some serious listening, I found that the Marantz SACD 30n provided me with more details, more natural tones, and warmer/richer medium frequencies than the DSD MK1 DAC, so much so that I sold the DSD MK1 DAC and replaced it permanently with the Marantz 30n.
It should be mentioned that I listen almost exclusively to Sacred Choral chants and listening fatigue can come very very quickly if the high frequencies (sibilance) are too present. I am now retired, bought my Marantz 30n back in March 2022 (Capitalsound.ca for CAD$3,800) and do not plan to upgrade my sound system any time soon.
I believe Ayre Acoustics QX-5 meets all of your criteria. It's made me a better listener with all the timbre. The clock is 5mm from the dac chip so they do things right rather than sell you additional expensive boxes which don't do as good of a job. I sold my Bartok Apex this spring. I'm about to buy a second QX-5 just to have. A used with net2 & usb2 just sold on The Music Room for under $5k.(way too cheap)
DCS Bartok…? I was able to compare it to a Nagra DAC and a Gryphon DAC - Very impressed with the delicate delivery - I’ve seen them here in the $9k range I think.
My Schiit Bifrost 2/64 has great tone and you can defeat the oversampling with a button, and their proprietary USB input (I bought a Schiit URD transport to check this out) works perfectly. A smooth sounding great DAC possibly not expensive enough for some. Under 10 grand by 9 grand or so.
OP - I have tried TWL Seven Plus power cord and TWL speaker cables. Although I didn’t pair these, the power cord emphasizes the highs when used on the amp in my system. Didn’t cause fatigue just caused a bit of brightness. It didn’t last long in my system. The American Digital power cord met the same faith.
The TWL speaker cable were bright and caused fatigue at normal listening levels. I didn’t enjoy them. They do sound fine at very low levels. They’re probably better suited for a warm sounding system powered by single ended triode amps…and this is what Pete uses. Just my suspicion, not a fact. Sharing my thoughts and experience…something to take into consideration.
OP…in atereophile review it is mentioned that upsampling results in artificial flavor in the treble. So you are most likely on the right track with the DAC being a suspect as well.
The Allnic's Upsample function wasn't as impressive. On the first press of this front-panel button, the Allnic shifts not to a higher sampling rate, but into the Upsample mode itself. The next three presses take a 44.1/48 file into 88.2/96, 176.4/192, and 352.8/384 sampling-rate groups, while the fourth press deactivates Upsample mode and returns the user to 44.1/48. I found that simply entering Upsample mode changed the sound of the file being played, and not for the better: The midrange became more opaque (and slightly thicker, timbrally), and the trebles became slightly, almost imperceptibly coarser. Beyond that, I found—with some exceptions—that each successive rung of the upsampling ladder made the trebles in particular more hi-fi, less natural.
@audphile - I do not use the TWL power cables currently. The speaker cables do not run bright in my system. I used the mapleshade double helix for a short period to test and THOSE were very bright. They were very open, but the brightness with those was quite pronounced to me. The TWL by comparison is full and much more natural to me. Granted, I do indeed have SET amplification and a tube line stage, so it works well together. This pairing was done before I made any DAC changes, so introducing the DAC is what introduced the 'complaint' over time.
I agree about the upsampling. Just not where this DAC shines at all.
The brightness is slight usually, but there are occasions where the top end distortion is pretty rough to where I need to turn down the volume quite a bit. Some of it can probably just be chalked up to mastering on those particular albums for the here and there borderline unlistenable distortion, but there's always an underlying 'treble bias' regardless of what mode I use or files I listen to, exacerbated by using upsampling or with bad recordings. If I had a streamer with a coax output, I would try that input instead, since it may be just be a case of the DAC's USB input not being great, but I don't currently, which is why I stressed optimization for USB input on my original post.
Got some interesting suggestions so far. I also got some DMs mentioning some things as well, so some good starting points!
If you like the sound of the upper model lampizator dacs, look into the space tech lab DA-DSD1024-8X-TUBE dac, it uses 8 dual triode tubes as part of the up sampling circuit. I haven't heard this particular dac, but I do own a less expensive space tech dac that has excellent sound quality without any brightness. A review on usaudiomart compared this space tech lab dac to a lampizator dac of over $30,000. There is one model above this one in space tech's stable, but it's a few thousand over the budget you set.
Consider DACs that have MOSFET output. MOSFETs are solid state devices that sound most close to analog. This is common sentiment about Pass Labs gear, for example, although Pass does not make DACs.
1. Leaning more musical/analog sounding, with a focus on laid back sound that is non-fatiguing;
2. wide soundstage and fantastic imaging;
3. Optimized for PCM streaming audio + USB input;
4. Ideally under $10k (new or used);
5. Black chassis option
I don’t have a turntable so I don’t know exactly what "analogue sound" means, but apart from this all the above requirements are perfectly describing my MSB Analog Dac with upgraded Analog Power Base, Quad USB and Ethernet inputs. Funny thing is that I’m considering letting this go, so if you are EU based as I am, feel free to PM me. If not, try to find a used one and maybe get to listen to it, it seems to match you preferences to a T. To the above list of virtues I’d add the effortless separation between instruments / sounds and very good bass extension and fullness.
I second the LAIV Harmony DAC....Mine is silver and gold. Beautiful...and the best sounding under 10 K. Being compared to CHORD Hugo and Rockna . $2,700 . Get one NOW !...My other DAC id the Audio Mirror ....another fabulous DAC for 4K....Either one you CAN'T GO WRONG !
I believe Ayre Acoustics QX-5 meets all of your criteria. It's made me a better listener with all the timbre. The clock is 5mm from the dac chip..
I have quite a bit of Ayre gear and am curious, where did you hear this bit of info about the design?
I have a QB-9 Twenty and have thought of the QX-5. When I saw this thread my QB-9 Twenty came to mind as well... "fatigue free / analog"... but still has detail. They can actually still be bought new from Ayre.
If this hasn't been mentioned already, since it seems that your listening fatigue is track dependent, sounds like you need some tone controls. Roon will do it electronically if you are a roon user. Or Schiit makes some that offer correction in multiple bands, I think as many as 6 or 7 if I recall. If you feel the need to send money, I believe Accuphase has a "high end" tone control. For what its worth, it may not be worth switching dacs or spending $10,000 to achieve a dial-back of too much high frequency energy. Tone controls or even room treatments to lessen the amount of high frequency energy in your room, may go further and help the sound using digital or analog sources.
Or, I had a Schiit Bifrost dac a couple years back, and I thought it fit the bill of the sound you were describing really well. Comes in black, significantly less money than $10k, maybe $1k tops these days. It was really a nice piece with balanced outputs, a remote, and a small footprint.
check out the Wyred4sound 10th anniversary DAC, the reviews have been stellar, one of the reviewers put it up against his VPI turntable with a $5,000 Japanese cartridge and he said it was every bit as an analog sounding, they also offer a 30-day trial period, I bought it because of that and tried it and I totally agree it is one of the most analog DACS I tried in my system and another great thing to try if you really want to improve your system is put Townshend podiums underneath your speakers to get rid of all the vibration coming back into your speakers and your whole system, best upgrade that I've ever done to my system, it was a revelation and eye opening how much better everything got. far superior to the ISO acoustic Gaia.All the reviews on different forums have confirmed that as well.
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