MSB just announced it will add an I2S module to the Discrete DAC which will add another $1980 to the cost of the unit.
Relaxed/Analog sounding DAC for under $10k (used or new)
Hi all. I'm currently using an Allnic D5000 DHT DAC which I got to replace a denafrips Pontus II not too long ago. While I do enjoy this dac, it can sound a bit forward in higher frequencies at times and can get a bit fatiguing. The 3A5 tubes are a bit finicky and don't last especially long either. It seems to sound best with coax input and with native DSD files, but my streamer only has USB output, and I exclusively stream via Qobuz with no DSD albums, so I'm not sure it's the best long term match from a synergy standpoint for me. I get the feeling that it was designed around being used primarily with a CD transport, which is not something I am interested in ever adding to my system.
My primary listening setup is centered around analog vinyl playback, so that tends to be my point of reference. I prefer laid back and musical sound versus striving for absolute detail retrieval that can sometimes come off a bit too clinical or harsh to me.
Going through various threads, some things stick out to me - T+A D200, SW1X, etc. I've also heard some Lampizator DACs that I liked (though mostly their very high end models that are outside my budget). I know typically people recommend R2R for a more 'analog' experience, but I also know that that is not the end-all-be-all with DACs, and implementation and intention matters a fair amount more. There are some DAC manufacturers that design their DACs around being used with CDs and don't care for streaming, so their performance is not optimized for use with streaming, etc.
Please do not turn the thread into a debate about the merits of R2R vs D-S. Not really relevant to me and I am mainly looking to see what ideas people toss at me.
Anyway, as a TL;DR, looking for a DAC that satisfies these points:
1. Leaning more musical/analog sounding, with a focus on laid back sound that is non-fatiguing;
2. wide soundstage and fantastic imaging;
3. Optimized for PCM streaming audio + USB input;
4. Ideally under $10k (new or used);
5. Black chassis option
Thanks!
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I'll second the Weiss recommendation. While it is highly detailed, I get absolutely zero fatigue from my Weiss Helios. Relaxing means different things to different people - but if you mean that after an hour or so of listening you want to take a break then the Weiss should be a consideration. I spend hours listening to it and only turn it off when it's well past my bedtime. :)
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Weiss DAC1. |
@mmcgill829 With your 10k budget, get the following DACs Dac 1: Schiit Yggdrasil R2R, $2700 Dac 2: Musician Taurus R2R, $3800 Dac 3: Gustard R26 R2R, $1650 Dac 4: Holo Audio Cyan 2 R2R, $1200
That would give you a sum total of 4 sexy black boxes to play with, i.e., a exciting dac collection. Swap over/cycle to a different dac every other day and keep things fresh.
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I thought sound quality was the only parameter that mattered to me until I was offered a great deal on a black Audio Research preamp… suddenly, I realized it was a show stopper. I bet most of us are like that. I’m just in the silver camp. Unless my equipment was Conrad Johnson… then I’d be in the gold camp… I think they are kinda like Ford… you can have it in any color as long as it is in gold. |
I appreciate all the of feedback so far! Been busy coordinating an upcoming move so haven't had a whole lot of time to check in lately. Seems like the Bricasti M1 and Tambaqui are recommended quite often at this price point. The issue with the latter is the lack of black case. Unfortunately, I won't even be able to consider something that isn't offered in all black. Weird hangup, I suppose, but its a matter of WAF, so to speak. Chord DACs from my understanding tend to be a little more 'hifi' sounding and not really a relaxed feel to them. This is at least what I've gathered from a lot of reviews, various forums posts, etc. |
I recommend the Bricasti M1 Series II, which is the successor to their M1 SE. That DAC incorporates the same Delta-Sigma DAC as my far more costly Bricasti M21. Before I bought my M21, I listened to more than a dozen of the “better” DACs, and the Bricasti stood out in performance as well as performance-to-value. Good luck in finding your dream DAC! |
I bought a used LampizatOr Golden Gate 1 for about 6 K and sent it in for upgrade to GG3 status including a new VC/OLED display and JL Sounds USB upgrades. That will get you in the 10K range. The GG uses DHT's in the output and also has a tube rectifier. It replaced a Denafrips Terminator Plus. The DHT's are amazing. I am using it with an Allnic L-8000 DHT pre-amp. The Lampi is dead silent in spite of the DHT's. The upgrade was phenomenal in terms of timbre and tone with fine resolution. It is the sweet spot in the line up. However, I found the S/PDIF better than the USB, not that the USB is not great, but you are back to that. FWIW, I use an Antipodes S20/S60 DDC to convert USB to S/PDIF, its an improvement over a Denafrips Iris. I share your observations about USB input. I also use a Sonore Optical Module and Sonore Signature Rendu to take advantage of the Ethernet output of my Innuos Statement which in my opinion is much cleaner than the USB output. I'm not saying USB can't be done right, just in my system the Ethernet output and S/PDIF input are superior to USB. |
After trying almost 14 different DACs personally I settled on two for two different rooms -
Audio Mirror Toubadour V -$6000 new and lifetime repairs and support from Valdimir Merason DAC1 - $6-8K new
I did like the Mola Mola Tambaqui as well but the price of both of those combined above was the price of one mola mola.
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Agree with the DAC shootout article by Verdant. Informative. Not to get into the debate of whether DAC's make a difference or whether price contributes. It's all in the ears of the listener. PS Audio sounds wonderful at a great deal on price. Just transitioned from Ayon Audio tube DAC to the new Musical Fidelity NuVista DAC. Hard to find used or open box but comes in just under your price point. Comes in black. As It breaks in - best sounding DAC my own system has had. And I do believe that a good streamer front end makes a difference
Happy hunting |
I recently got a t+a DAC 200, subsequent put an uptone switch and optical module and then added a good power supply for the switch. Picked up everything used and reasonably. I think I’ve finally found what I’ve been tweaking for, ie a very clear defined sound stage where I can point to instruments and voices between the speakers. It’s very difficult to stop listening (a “drug”). 😆😆 FYI prior DACs were border patrol, Ayre, Hegel built-in. |
@mmcgill829 many interesting suggestions here but I highly recommend the Bricasti M1 SE as it’s exactly what you’re after
less costly option Mytek Manhattan II similar to the Bricasti, but not quite as elegant must by the II. |
My list of notable DACs based on very positive reviews:
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check out the Wyred4sound 10th anniversary DAC, the reviews have been stellar, one of the reviewers put it up against his VPI turntable with a $5,000 Japanese cartridge and he said it was every bit as an analog sounding, they also offer a 30-day trial period, I bought it because of that and tried it and I totally agree it is one of the most analog DACS I tried in my system and another great thing to try if you really want to improve your system is put Townshend podiums underneath your speakers to get rid of all the vibration coming back into your speakers and your whole system, best upgrade that I've ever done to my system, it was a revelation and eye opening how much better everything got. far superior to the ISO acoustic Gaia.All the reviews on different forums have confirmed that as well. |
If this hasn't been mentioned already, since it seems that your listening fatigue is track dependent, sounds like you need some tone controls. Roon will do it electronically if you are a roon user. Or Schiit makes some that offer correction in multiple bands, I think as many as 6 or 7 if I recall. If you feel the need to send money, I believe Accuphase has a "high end" tone control. For what its worth, it may not be worth switching dacs or spending $10,000 to achieve a dial-back of too much high frequency energy. Tone controls or even room treatments to lessen the amount of high frequency energy in your room, may go further and help the sound using digital or analog sources.
Or, I had a Schiit Bifrost dac a couple years back, and I thought it fit the bill of the sound you were describing really well. Comes in black, significantly less money than $10k, maybe $1k tops these days. It was really a nice piece with balanced outputs, a remote, and a small footprint. |
I have quite a bit of Ayre gear and am curious, where did you hear this bit of info about the design? |
I don’t have a turntable so I don’t know exactly what "analogue sound" means, but apart from this all the above requirements are perfectly describing my MSB Analog Dac with upgraded Analog Power Base, Quad USB and Ethernet inputs. Funny thing is that I’m considering letting this go, so if you are EU based as I am, feel free to PM me. If not, try to find a used one and maybe get to listen to it, it seems to match you preferences to a T. To the above list of virtues I’d add the effortless separation between instruments / sounds and very good bass extension and fullness. |
If you like the sound of the upper model lampizator dacs, look into the space tech lab DA-DSD1024-8X-TUBE dac, it uses 8 dual triode tubes as part of the up sampling circuit. I haven't heard this particular dac, but I do own a less expensive space tech dac that has excellent sound quality without any brightness. A review on usaudiomart compared this space tech lab dac to a lampizator dac of over $30,000. There is one model above this one in space tech's stable, but it's a few thousand over the budget you set. |
@audphile - I do not use the TWL power cables currently. The speaker cables do not run bright in my system. I used the mapleshade double helix for a short period to test and THOSE were very bright. They were very open, but the brightness with those was quite pronounced to me. The TWL by comparison is full and much more natural to me. Granted, I do indeed have SET amplification and a tube line stage, so it works well together. This pairing was done before I made any DAC changes, so introducing the DAC is what introduced the 'complaint' over time. I agree about the upsampling. Just not where this DAC shines at all. The brightness is slight usually, but there are occasions where the top end distortion is pretty rough to where I need to turn down the volume quite a bit. Some of it can probably just be chalked up to mastering on those particular albums for the here and there borderline unlistenable distortion, but there's always an underlying 'treble bias' regardless of what mode I use or files I listen to, exacerbated by using upsampling or with bad recordings. If I had a streamer with a coax output, I would try that input instead, since it may be just be a case of the DAC's USB input not being great, but I don't currently, which is why I stressed optimization for USB input on my original post. Got some interesting suggestions so far. I also got some DMs mentioning some things as well, so some good starting points! |
OP…in atereophile review it is mentioned that upsampling results in artificial flavor in the treble. So you are most likely on the right track with the DAC being a suspect as well.
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OP - I have tried TWL Seven Plus power cord and TWL speaker cables. Although I didn’t pair these, the power cord emphasizes the highs when used on the amp in my system. Didn’t cause fatigue just caused a bit of brightness. It didn’t last long in my system. The American Digital power cord met the same faith. |
I believe Ayre Acoustics QX-5 meets all of your criteria. It's made me a better listener with all the timbre. The clock is 5mm from the dac chip so they do things right rather than sell you additional expensive boxes which don't do as good of a job. I sold my Bartok Apex this spring. I'm about to buy a second QX-5 just to have. A used with net2 & usb2 just sold on The Music Room for under $5k.(way too cheap) |
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