Ray Charles - "Rap is not music"

Every generation feels the need to be more outrageous than the last just to get the attention they "deserve".

I personally don't get rap and it seems to me to be more ethnically based than not.

Can someone please explain the difference between rap and hip-hop...I may like hip-hip if I could identify it.

Regards,

barts

I don’t think you can categized an entire class - rap is varied. That being said, I think it is fair to define what qualifies as music and what does not. Very subjective and a bit meaningless, but why not. Once those definitions are in place, sounds can be either music or not music. I have a teen son so I am exposed to lots of new "sounds" and some if it is not, IMO, music. For me, some rap is not music and some of the electronics (not sure what to even call it) is not music - may be call it random industrial sounds. Some rap and techno is great stuff though and is on my play list. Some rap does not make the play list even though I like the beat or sound of it because in some songs the lyrics are disgusting and/or violent. Ruins another wise interesting track.

I wanted to add that music does not exist in a vacuum.  It is a product of the artist and is influenced by their environment.  The link between the music and the artist and their environment is fascinating.  Compare classical to old time country music in the US to rap.  They both used what was available and what was popular is based on what appealed to the masses or the decision makers.  Segments of society choose/select the popular/famous music - so it is also a representation of that segment of society.  When we look at popular music it is a reflection of what appeals to that segment of society, what type of music could be make (instruments /training available) and music training/tutoring available.    

As often was the case, davedead, Jerry could cut through many topics & give a clear analysis in a very simple form. He was a highly talented musician who could play different styles of music at a high level & I respect his opinion on music.

It's clear from his interviews he was highly intelligent & it's unfortunate drugs got the better of him several times throughout his amazing life or, maybe, it was because of the drugs that his talent shone through so brightly? 

Many great musicians had a similar downfall / strength.......

"But I do associate its rise in popularity with a certain decline in civility, engagement in intelligent discourse, obsession with celebrity, and worship of materialism.  So there’s that.'

Sounds like what was said about 80's hair metal or 70's glam rock, etc...

I love some pretty shitty music, full of archaic sexual innuendo, played to a very predictable repetitive musical structure, but I love it anyway.  That’s the Blues I’m talking about.  My Swing Era parents thought Jimi Hendrix was horrendous.  I personally was appalled by AC/DC at first.  I cannot deny the craft and skill that some rappers demonstrate, but as an art form of music, no thanks.  I like my sexual  references kept innuendo, and violence against women implied, not glorified.  I also prefer people to play, not sample.  Call me old fashioned.

Ray Charles…one of our greatest national treasures, but a whole generation or two adores this music, as I did his. But I do associate its rise in popularity with a certain decline in civility, engagement in intelligent discourse, obsession with celebrity, and worship of materialism.  So there’s that.

Couldn't agree more with Ray!

Does Hip Hop fall into the same category?

At best, Rap is poetry intoned to a steady, repeating beat and, for the life of me, I can't make out what is being said, most of the time! Not my cup of tea! However, a lot of the younger folk like it. So, to each their own! Whatever floats your boat!

There is a great Bruce Willis movie (can't remember which one) where the bad guys finally catch old Bruce string him up by his arms with chains in some sort of dungeon. These bad guys want some sort of information from him but Bruce, ever the hero of course, just won't talk. During this torture scene, one of the bad guys, in desperation, says something like: "What do we need to do to finally make you talk?" Bruce responds with something like:  "Play some Rap." That about sums up why I need to hit the mute button on the remote when I hear it on the TV.

@davedead +1

@audiovideonirvana no problem. and no chance of me acting adolescent at all anytime I can weave a "That's what she said" into a conversation...

Ray Charles made music in another genre.  To say Rap isn't music isn't music is idiotic.  Just because it doesn't appeal to you doesn't mean it's not what it is.  I could care less for 95% of hard rock & roll but it's still music.  Enjoy what you enjoy and please don't piss on someone else joy.  Just an insane thread with opinions at the day that don't matter.  Tell the rap artist who's making millions that he's not making music and it doesn't appeal to anyone. Yeah, laughing all the way to the bank.  You wish you had the talent to do what they do.

I listened to a Rap station this morning on ride in and I apologize for the no harmony comment in my first post. Most did have some form of harmony,  even if it was only a one cord song with no changes.

@simao: “Adolescent.” That’s one of the nicest things anybody’s ever said to this old geezer.

To each his own, RAP is music to the ears of many,but not my cup of tea.

@simao Ok, but I certainly find it difficult to imagine that Jerry had an intellectual blindness to any genre of music.

@hilde45 So well put, all I can say is sign me up for all of what you said.

@davedead It is what it is. And as a Deadhead myself, I can call out generational blindness when I see it. 

@simao Seems over the years the many critics have been proven wrong. BTW...your ageism is showing.

@audiovideonirvana Wow. That really added to the sophistication level of the conversation. Sorry to be snarky, but adolescent quips like that don't strengthen your argument much 

@shutupuface Yes, rap does fit those criteria. It’s not just a voice and a background rhythm, as much as people might want to reduce it as such. It's like saying all of Dvorak is atonal, no-tune self indulgence or all of Paul Winter is cheesy wanna-be world music. 

@davedead Another grumpy old man railing against an art form he doesn’t understand. It’s also slightly hypocritical as many critics decried the Dead as aimless amateur noodling.

Okay, so Ray got up one fine morning, took a peek out the window, then retrieved the current copy of Billboard magazine from the mailbox and returned to his most favorite chair with a nice cup of coffee. It was then he discovered the growing popularity of rap on the charts and the reality of his waining career.

Then ... what’s that?! Oooohhh ....

Nevermind.

Honest Question. Why is it insulting to consider Rap poetry instesd of music? As others have posted, many non Rap artist have used spoken word, I considered most Dylan to be poetry.

Once again, if you think this definition defines rap, be my guest.

music

myoo͞′zĭk

noun

1. The art of arranging sounds in time so as to produce a continuous, unified, and evocative composition, as through melody, harmony, rhythm, and timbre.
2. Vocal or instrumental sounds possessing a degree of melody, harmony, or rhythm.
3. A musical composition.         

Who doesn’t love Rappers Delight from Sugar Hill Gang! Happy Friday ! 

You can't spell crap without rap.

The easiest thing to have online is an opinion.

So here‘s mine: To me whatever Sting did in the last 40 years barely qualifies as music. It doesn’t do anything for me; I can’t learn anything from it. His post-Police stuff is either boring or masturbatory noodling--I could do that when I was 7. All you have to do is learn your instrument well and forget all about putting your heart in it. That’s nothing. That’s [expletive].

But that‘s just me.

Please discuss.

Was Big Bad John by Jimmy Dean the first rap song?

(asking for a friend)

Socrates would say that whether "rap" is music is a question of definition, not of taste. For example, I hate James Taylor, but would never deny that what he does is music. And yet, in American usage, even before Webster's Third New International (1961), the third of seven definitions of music has been "any rhythmic sequence of pleasing sounds." By that standard, whether rap is music DOES depend on whether we happen to find it pleasing, which makes the question subjective after all! Likely this means "intended to be pleasing," not necessarily "found to be pleasing." And yet!  Not a question to be trifled with, at least if you are a philosopher or lexicographer or both.

You don’t know what music is, so stop professing.

Jeeze Louise who cares. 

I'm way more on Ray Charles's opinion than maybe he is, 

but it really doesn't matter. Just change the channel. 

But....if you're talking about the desecration of a race due to culture, then that's different. And yes, it's real. But any who prefer to cry more than create, you will understand as you get older. 

Tired post that has been done several times over.

If you want to whine about a genre, you could have added your words to an existing post. No need to start yet another.

I have broad, eclectic tastes in music. Rap is not a big favorite, but the millions of people who really enjoy it, have a right to their opinion and don't need judgement from stuffy, closed-minded individuals.

Enjoy the music... whatever floats your boat. 

@pedroeb what do you mean by, “ (rap) is not ‘musical’ “??  
Do you mean you just don’t enjoy it?

Buy an older copy of Winter in America- preferred copy is Strata-East but the cheapie is a UK issue called The Bottle. Gil Scott Heron and Brian Jackson (on the Rhodes piano). It’s somewhat political (and interestingly not dated despite that) and has amazing melodic lines. Jackson’s piano is gorgeous, something I rarely use to describe that chime-y sound characteristic of the Rhodes. This was in some ways the spiritual ancestor to what we now call rap or hip-hop or Neo-soul. It is poetry, spoken word and the music is gorgeous.

And anapestic beats are in everything including Shel Silverstein, Shakespeare, and KRS-1. I'll take those guys over an obscure 20th century holistic physician. 

i don't care for the anapestic beat in much rap music, it makes me feel tense. dr. john diamond wrote a book about the health dangers of the anapestic beat in a book called "your body doesn't lie." 

My mistake. (I refuse to say my bad.) It is music. It's just not musical. Which is probably what Ray Charles was considering,

@tomcy6 Nah. I prefer to keep listening and appreciating lots of different types of music, including rap and Ray Charles (on occasion).

@pedroeb Okay, desperately-trying-to-stay-relevant cultural gatekeeper.

@emrofsemanon No, Quincy doesn’t hafta know. He’s one artist who never even dabbled in the art form he criticized, unlike Quincy Jones.

Finally, @jond Good call. Rap seems to be this group’s favorite genre to trash, though doing so usually reveals a level of being out-of-touch with a zeitgeist that's passed many by

@pedroeb “Who ever thought (rap) was music?”

Oy vey.

I’m all ears for your definition of “music.”  
If it ain’t music, what the hell is it?  

Just because millions and millions of people all over the world appreciate it doesn't doesn't necessarily mean it is music.

ray oughta know. i trust his judgment more than many others on these matters, more even than quincy jones who happens to love rap. 

Who ever thought it was music? Millions and millions of people all over the world who can appreciate it even if you don't. 

I posted something along this line on Reddit.  I believe I even qualified it with IMHO.  It was deleted as not meeting their karma thrshold.

Rap is not something I care for, neither is hip-hop, but I get why some would love it. As an example, at 68, I have totally fallen for electronic music this past year, specially French and Danish, like High Tone, Zenzile, Danton Eepron, Jacob Bellens, Kasper Bjork, Air, William Orbitt, Boris Blank, WhoMadeWho, Alex Gopher, Yello, the list is endless. I understand the folks who are comfortable listening to what they know, but I could never live with my music like that. There is so much new stuff out there that knocks my socks off, I would be crazy for not wanting to discover it. The world of music never stops amazing me.

Let's just say the correct spelling starts with a "C". Let's be honest. It's just boring mono tones delivered in an aggressive manner and set to a boring backbround noise. All you need is a low level boom box noise machine and you're set to go. Who ever thought it was music? If you want poetry, you'd be better off with Pam Ayres. LOL

Talented and smart people say dumb things, and it’s dumb to agree with something dumb.

Rap is an acknowledged art form. It has millions of people who love it, buy it, celebrate it. Continuing to deny that it is art sounds, well, pretty ill-motivated.

I don’t like rap. I don’t listen to rap.

I don’t like twelve-tone music. I don’t listen to it.

I don’t like a lot of things. But they don’t get bumped from existence because I don’t like them. Or because Ray Charles or someone else doesn’t like them. Make an argument if you don’t want to appear lazy.

Oh, and trumpeting your mere dislike of rap -- as a thread starter -- is not a great look. 

It’s not up for debate. Whether one likes it is their business, but asserting it’s “not even music” vaporizes one’s credibility.  
If someone has actually listened to rap at all over the past 40-odd years, they would note that rap has,
1) these things called “chords.”  
“Chords,” by definition, is harmony.  
2) the songs have this thing called, “melody.”  
That would be the part of the song where a defined, composed, repeated sequence of tones/notes occurs.  
3) vocal melodies defining those integral parts of pop songs called, “choruses.”
4) counter melodies supplied by supplementary (background) vocal arrangements and/or instrumental arrangements.  
5) percussion arrangements.  
6) songs composed and structured with intros, verses, choruses, bridges, outros, etc. etc.

Last time I checked, aural phenomena that contains all of the above, simultaneously (and even only a few of the above, in concert) is what people call, “music.”
 
 

There seems to be an awful lot of energy on this site devoted to criticizing rap. Ray is entitled to his opinion and is a fabulous musician. It doesn't make him right. Howzabout we lay off rap for a while guys?

I LOVE Ray Charles…well, some of his music except for the shameless, over orchestrated covers but hey, he had to make a living.

I don’t take financial advice from Ray Charles.

I don’t take marital advice from Ray Charles.

I don’t take advice from Mr. Charles on virtually any topic other than “here is how I kicked heroin”.

Mr. Charles, if he was alive today, would be begging Kendrick Lamar or Anderson .Pak to record with them. Heck, for the last 20 years of his career, Sinatra could have been classified as a rapper. Leonard Cohen had a quarter-octave vocal range on a good day so he could be classified as a rapper.

Some people here need to add the following phrase to their tombstones “Get off my lawn”

It's cool to see that you're passionate about music, and everyone has their own opinion on what they consider to be music. Ray Charles was a legendary musician and his opinion on rap is totally valid. However, I do think it's important to recognize that music is subjective and means different things to different people. Rap has become a hugely popular genre over the years and has had a major impact on music and culture. So while it might not be Ray Charles' cup of tea, there are plenty of people who love it and consider it to be music.

@simao - Your rant against Ray Charles makes me think you've been listening to too much rap.  Try something else for a while and your mood should improve.

The actual quote is: "“You have to remember I’m a musician,” said the singer-keyboardist who back in the ‘50s did as much as anyone to pry open the body of American pop and inject it with soul. “So rap doesn’t do anything for me; I can’t learn anything from it. Rap is like reciting poetry--I could do that when I was 7. All you have to do is match (the words) with the rhythm. That’s nothing. That’s [expletive]." 

Who gives a crap what Ray Charles thinks or says? He was one musician who's prime was 25 years before the advent of rap. And he was an old fart when he gave that interview. You go ahead and shake your fist at the changing world. 

And no, you couldn't "recite poetry" when you were 7. You could say the words but you need a lot of experience to know how to really recite a poem.

“Ray Charles - "Rap is not music"”

You don’t say! I guess that settles it.

Didn’t Bach say that same thing  about Elvis ?  Schoenberg about Pink Floyd?

Miles and miles of ignorance here.  
Jeez Louise.  
So one guy (The great Ray Charles) said something, so, there ya go.  
Glomming on to something one guy said as though the Gospel was written.  
There seems to be a lot of that on this forum.  

Define, “music.”

I’ll happily let the Masters of Music here deign to provide us ignoramuses with the Definition Of Music.